Difference in sound between AR3 and AR3a

[owlsplace]

Tom,

Would be interesting in hearing more about speaker voicing at some point.

In the meantime here is something else to consider from the archives about possible sources of variations in the AR-3 and AR-3a besides age-related deterioration of the drivers: Thoughts on AR-3 Schematics

Roger

 

 

[fedeleluigi]

On 5/23/2016 at 11:14 AM, Liangshan Marsh said:

 

 

Couple testing video clips between AR3 and AR3a that hooked up to the same receiver, same turning volume... etc, speaker switching system A and B. My ears are not very good to recognize which one is better.

 

 

 

Thank you Liangshan,

 

Did you do these videos?

If not, I'm not sure about their trustworthiness and how much they can be accurate . 

Anyway, comparing the videos the sound seem very similar between Ar3 and 3a with only subtle differences. Hoewever, I do think that a youtube video cannot allow to understand the real sonic differences between two loudspeakers.

 

I do hope also Tom Tyson, that is very expert and competent about these excelent loudspeakers,  will write about the differences in the midrange between AR3 and 3a in general and also relating to my initial question. I think he could compare AR3 and 3a when they were new and he has some of them in a perfect or almost perfect state.

 

Thank you

 

Luigi

[Liangshan Marsh]

13 hours ago, Sonnar said:

 it' s impossible to compare two speakers in this way.        Adriano

 

5 hours ago, fedeleluigi said:

Thank you Liangshan,

 

Did you do these videos?

If not, I'm not sure about their trustworthiness and how much they can be accurate . 

Anyway, comparing the videos the sound seem very similar between Ar3 and 3a with only subtle differences. 

 

Thank you

 

Luigi

Yes Sonnar, the corrected A-B test when both the speaker are new , and now both of them were used ,the Caps of each pair works fine but may be not in the same or equal condition. So the test is just for discussion , not count...

Yeah Luigi, I was using the Smart phone to record the video clip my self, the phone recorded poorly in MIC function, It didn't capture all the sound from the speaker, I heard live from the speaker so loud but when recorded and play back It sounds only 60-70 % comparing to the real speaker's sound.

[Sonnar]

I mean it's impossible to compare speakers judging through a recorded and reproduced track.  It makes a sense comparing speakers live, a late production AR 3 isn 't  so much older than an AR 3a, and if properly recapped they 're comparable. What is Your " live " impression? Cheers, Adriano

[fedeleluigi]

On 23 maggio 2016 at 11:19 PM, Liangshan Marsh said:

Yeah Luigi, I was using the Smart phone to record the video clip my self, the phone recorded poorly in MIC function, It didn't capture all the sound from the speaker, I heard live from the speaker so loud but when recorded and play back It sounds only 60-70 % comparing to the real speaker's sound.

Liangshan, thank you for answering

[der]

Never heard a 3 that I'm aware of. I've been listening to my 3a's since 1969.  I'm happy enough.

der

[stan461]

4 hours ago, der said:

Never heard a 3 that I'm aware of. I've been listening to my 3a's since 1969.  I'm happy enough.

der

And that's what really matters.

[Sonnar]

On 25 maggio 2016 at 8:57 PM, der said:

Never heard a 3 that I'm aware of. I've been listening to my 3a's since 1969.  I'm happy enough.

der

der, differences between 3 and 3a are very subtle . I have 'em both and I love 'em both , and I 'm not able to say which one is better. Surely they 're the finest speakers ever made . Adriano

[der]

22 hours ago, Sonnar said:

der, differences between 3 and 3a are very subtle . I have 'em both and I love 'em both , and I 'm not able to say which one is better. Surely they 're the finest speakers ever made . Adriano

I'm sure the 3's sound very good. My 3a are early ones that use the same woofer with the alnico magnets and cloth surrounds.  I did have a friend many years ago that traded in his 4 AR3 for 4 AR3a when the 3a was introduced. It was at his home that I first heard AR speakers - his new AR3a.  He was driving them with a massive array of McIntosh tube preamps and amplifiers.  I was dumbstruck and vowed that instant to own a pair of AR3a.  

der

[Norman Nicolai]

On 5/21/2016 at 5:05 PM, ar_pro said:

Choosing is probably not so much an absolute as it is a preference; AR seemed to maintain that each standard-bearer was an improvement over its predecessor. Their brochure for the AR-3 read: "It is the most natural-sounding musical producer that we were able to design, regardless of cost"; while the AR-3a literature states: "The AR-3a is the best speaker system we know how to make". With the AR-11, Acoustic Research claimed it to be "certainly the most accurate speaker we have ever built which means that it is probably the most accurate speaker of its size ever made", and further "each of its three drivers represents significant advancement in performance capabilities over original AR speakers". And finally, the AR-9 was described as "the most perfect sound reproducer in AR history".

And so, if the manufacturer is to be believed, each top-model represented a step forward, but that didn't mean that the earlier models were rendered irrelevant; on the contrary, since there is a clear "family resemblance" in the tonality & presentation of each of these systems over a couple of decades, it can be argued that AR consciously maintained that resemblance and continuity of sonic flavor throughout the development of subsequent top-of-the-line systems. In other words, the "AR sound" wasn't an accident, but a by-product of purposeful design.

Adriano has a strong preference for the AR-3, because he has arrived at a state of perfection, and who could disagree? Personally, I'd have no problem building a well-balanced, musical system around any of the AR 12" 3-way speakers, if only because of their pleasing similarity and reliable presentation. It's a nice problem to have - like choosing a puppy.

Just read the posts from this old thread and wanted to say that I agreed with your thoughts more than anyone else. There are some subtle differences in the AR line of 12" speakers, but the overall body of work is still amazingly accurate and pleasing to the ear.

One more fact that to me is obvious, but not talked about enough during these posts. The human ear is a variable instrument. Each persons individual hearing acuity substantially colors their perception of sound. That accounts for much of a persons preference, or taste, a point I find missing from most of these discussions. That being said, the entire AR family of loudspeakers is one that I wouldn't mind being related to.

[Manhattanman]

I just found two AR 3a speakers in the trash last Thursday (11/21/19), so I'm researching this model. In GD70's video, the AR 3s sound basier (thicker) than the 3a speakers. And in Liangshan Marsh's video the 3a speakers sound basier than the 3 speakers. I'm listening on smaller Advents (Don't remember the Advent model). Neither model, based on these two videos, demonstrate a truly balanced sound. Just my opinion.

My AR 3a speakers are linked here:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2366803126965584&id=100009077608181

[genek]

An internet video of speakers tells you nothing useful about the sound of the speakers.

[Manhattanman]

Then why were they posted?

[JKent]

24 minutes ago, genek said:

An internet video of speakers tells you nothing useful about the sound of the speakers.

Word

[genek]

23 minutes ago, Manhattanman said:

Then why were they posted?

Because the people who posted them have an abiding belief in the power of fantasy.

[JKent]

1 hour ago, Manhattanman said:

I just found two AR 3a speakers in the trash last Thursday (11/21/19),

And according to your link this is the SECOND pair of 3a's you found?!

I'm moving to your neighborhood ?

[Manhattanman]

Yeah. In fact, I mentioned them here, 3 1/2 years ago, when I found them. Not touched yet. Never re-foamed a pair.

[Manhattanman]

I've done some research, but where do members of this site recommend purchasing the capacitors, pots and foam surrounds for this model?

Based on other speakers I have of this age and older, I've noticed that the caps are often still functioning quite well. Besides replacement of the surrounds, what is absolutely necessary to replace? Is there one supplier that people recommend for all of the component parts? Seems like a complete replacement of parts can cost over $100.00 for each speaker. What are my best options?

[Aadams]

1 hour ago, Manhattanman said:

Seems like a complete replacement of parts can cost over $100.00 for each speaker. What are my best options?

Here is a link to a recent , comprehensive 3a restoration.  Parts Express is now a reliable one stop shop for everything you will need, as is Vintage AR on Ebay, but prices can be very different. If you have Sprague Compulytic caps inside you can safely leave them in place.   Even if your tweeters work, they are almost certainly severely degraded in performance.  If they were mine I would use the existing Spragues, replace the pots with Lpads and resistors and have the tweeters rebuilt.  If you go the Hi Vi tweeter route, don't toss your old tweeters, even dead ones can be brought back to life.   I am sure others will post more sources for parts and have cap recommendations.

 

[Manhattanman]

Thanks, Aadams:

I haven't heard about the tweeter issues. I've seen a few YouTube tutorials and that problem isn't mentioned. I'll need to make the restoration as economically reasonable as possible.

[Aadams]

13 minutes ago, Manhattanman said:

Thanks, Aadams:

I haven't heard about the tweeter issues. I've seen a few YouTube tutorials and that problem isn't mentioned. I'll need to make the restoration as economically reasonable as possible.

The tweeter issue wasn't really well known when the AR 3a Restoration Guide,(which you should download and read,)  was written and the availability of tweeter repair has only happened within the last two years.  I would not expect you to see anything about this on youtube. The Hivi mod may be on youtube, and it's creator, who occasionally visits these pages, intended it as an alternative for broken tweeters.  If you want authentic sound you must rebuild and replace in pairs.   If you want near authentic sound for a little less money then install a pair of Hivi.  A lot of what you hear about the mellow rolled off sound of the 3a can be attributed to operable but severely degraded tweeters.  I guarantee the chance that your old tweeters are no where close to original factory performance is 99%.

Adams

[GD70]

Genek,

Fantasy? Not at all. The video I posted was simply to get an IDEA of the different sound between the 3-3a, for fun. Never meant as the end all be all comparison between the two. But, you can hear a distinct difference, which I think basically characterizes their differences. Since I posted that video, which was from five or so years ago, shot with a point & shoot camera, I've restored several sets of 3a's and another set of 3's. The difference between then and now is the recent restorations both were far more extensive regarding driver rebuilds that were not available back then with the featured pairs in the video.

I have A/B'd the 3/3as restored as best as possible, both as close to factory performance as possible. Chris restored tweeters for me for the 3as, Roy restored the mids for my 3's. Both were recapped, and pots were fully working. Both had the cloth surround woofers. 

I listened to both extensively, by myself, and with other audio heads, same amp, volume level, same music. With all things being as equal as possible, every person preferred the 3's. Their descriptions were they were smoother, more natural sounding, better balanced. They often felty he 3as were too forward in the highs. Surprising, but I also have the same opinion. 

Glenn

[Aadams]

On 11/25/2019 at 11:54 PM, GD70 said:

Fantasy? Not at all.

I wish these videos were good tools for this and I agree with genek in general but in this case I believe we have an exception to the rule.  This video is instructive and highlights a problem in comparing AR speakers across different generations or even tiers within a generation and the below statement is the crux.

On 5/20/2016 at 5:24 PM, GD70 said:

Both had the rheostats set to maximum in an attempt to equal the settings as much as possible.

At these settings the 3a mid would be shouting an entire octave that in the 3 was still stuck in the woofer.  I contend the difference you were hearing was the power response of the 3a and if the 3a mid had been turned down a smidge the two speakers would have been very similar.  Example: In my listening space, the 3a mid sounds more potent than an AR 9 mid LMR UMR combo over the same octaves when both systems are unattenuated and side by side with identical equalizer settings.  The 3a mid must be turned down to level match. 

I think you see the same issue comparing AR5 and AR2ax.  Same woofer but 1400hz vs 600 hz woofer to mid crossover.  

I have never not had to attenuate an AR classic mid range to get it level matched even when sitting next to a 58s which is a renowned mid range screamer.  The only other AR mid range configuration I have experienced that approaches the classic mid dome output is the AR98 mid dome. 

Adams

   

 

[Manhattanman]

Doubt if I have the tweeters rebuilt or replaced, at least for now. I may start with a simple woofer foam surround replacement, then based on results, replace the pots and/or caps, but maybe not. Frankly, I'm not crazy about replacing any original parts. I've always been a real stickler about keeping original components...original. I've had one minor tweeter issue with one of my four KLH Model Fives. It needs new caps, but it never bothered me enough to do the replacement. Incidentally, I've found all of my numerous KLH, Advent and AR speakers in the trash. Most still sound great without any serious restoration.

[Jim Pearce]

Such heady stuff, this.

Thank you all so very much.