Stimpy Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 As a former Teledyne Avionics employee, one of the (few) perks of the job, was the option to buy products from our sister companies. As such, I quickly exercised that option to buy new, direct from the factory, AR90s. While I've always babied my speakers, and have never over-driven them, other users weren't always that courteous. Specifically, two of my wayward brothers weren't very respectful of my 90s. One brother blew an UMR driver, and another brother, for reasons I can't fathom, decided to polyurethane my speakers. Both cabinets. So now that I have the space and time, I want to get my 90s refurbished, and pristine again. First, the blown UMR was replaced for free by AR, when the original mid was blown. But, unknown to me at the time, AR provided a 200032 mid and not a 200028 mid. Something I just realized, when pulling the drivers. Luckily, I have a spare 200028 UMR, so no issue there. The LMR's and woofers are already refoamed. I did that before the speakers were put into storage, when we were having our current home built. The refoam went fine, though now after reading many of the refoam posts again, I wonder if I used the correct foam for the speakers? From memory, I think I used foam from Simply Speakers and Parts Express. Did the foam have the correct compliance, as I used the generic 10" PE foam? Should I order the JBL 125A foam, for a redo of the woofers? Now, polyurethane? Help! While I'm fine with sanding and touch-ups, what's the best way to remove the polyurethane without damaging the veneer, since I definitely don't want have to re-veneer the speakers? Also, the black paint. Sand and respray? But first, should I remove the acoustic blanket and speaker label? If I do, how hard are they to reapply, and look nice (stock)? Or refinish and just leave 'em Naked-and-Afraid? Finally, capacitors? My last dilemma. I have PE Saved Carts for a NPE recap, a Solen poly recap, a Dayton poly recap, and all of those plus adding cascoded bypass caps to each too. None of the Carts are too expensive. But, every time I 'think' I have my mind made up, I read, "don't use Solen's, they're harsh", or "use Solen's, they're great!" and then another, "don't use Dayton, they're harsh", and then, "NPE's are good enough". Now, to be honest, I personally do think recapping helps a speaker's sound quality. I've recapped brand new speakers, that had perfectly functioning caps, and heard improvements afterwards. Even my wife did as well. So, I guess it's really up to me to decide this one, and make a choice. Thanks for reading, and all opinions are greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar_pro Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Formby's makes a poly remover. How thick is the poly finish? If the finish was applied by spray, you might be able to just sand it off, and not require a remover. I've never been able to remove an Acoustic Blanket intact; the adhesive is very strong. If the Blanket is in good shape and you'd like to keep it, I'd suggest masking it off, and sanding around it. Ditto for the label, it's very difficult to remove without damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 The poly was brushed on! As you can imagine, it didn't turn out too well. As such, thanks for the Formby's tip! As to the Blanket, both the Blanket and Inserts still look as good as new. No deterioration at all. So, I guess I'll pick up some decent painters tape, and mask everything off. As much as I like the look of the pictures of Naked-9s I've seen, I still like my 90s stock. I always thought they looked kind'a futuristic high-tech. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted April 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2016 I've been further researching my 90 xover recap project, but I ran across something that confused me. I read a recap discussion where a responder suggested you should spend more money on the caps in series with the individual drivers, over the parallel caps? Is that true? In my 90's, the 4, 6, 24, and 80uf caps are the caps wired in series to the drivers. Concentrate on those? I want to use decent parts, but I am admittedly on a tight budget. I want to change what counts, using the best that I can afford, and use 'good enough' on the rest, if there's little sonic impact? Also, should I use only capacitors of the same brand, for consistency in sound? I've looked at Dayton, Audyn, Jantzen, Sonicap Gen 1, Mundorf MCap EVO, and others, but these seem to get consistently good reviews, and aren't 'too' expensive. So, I hope someone here has used these brands and can comment on their experiences with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuja Posted April 12, 2016 Report Share Posted April 12, 2016 I have used the plain Mundorf MCaps (not Evo) in my AR-90 restoration and I'm very pleased with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KlausDK Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 On 10/4/2016 at 9:34 PM, Stimpy said: I've been further researching my 90 xover recap project, but I ran across something that confused me. I read a recap discussion where a responder suggested you should spend more money on the caps in series with the individual drivers, over the parallel caps? Is that true? In my 90's, the 4, 6, 24, and 80uf caps are the caps wired in series to the drivers. Concentrate on those? That is what I do, film caps for the caps in series with the drivers and bipolar/NP electrolytic caps for the other. BRgds Klaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted April 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 Thanks Kuja and KlausDK, Knowing that buying poly caps for series parts, and NPE's for the parallel caps, is acceptable is great. Your comments help a lot, and save my budget too. As such, I 'think' I'll try ClarityCap PX's, for the smaller series caps, and Erse PulseX with ClarityCap's as a bypass, for the larger series caps. Then, maybe regular Erse NPE's on the parallel shunt positions. Thanks to DavidR, I already have the 350uf Erse parts. Now to order the rest! Take care, Stimpy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuja Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 I plan to listen to my AR-90s for a long time , so I have used film caps all the way because of their longevity (only the 350uF caps are NPE). This option is more expensive, but I will never have to recap again (except maybe for the 350uF). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genek Posted April 14, 2016 Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 It's really not possible to completely remove polyurethane from wood. There will always be some of it in the fibers. Once you have used whatever "remover" you find works best and have sanded the wood smooth, refinish it with something like Watco that includes a coating rather than a penetrating-only finish like BLO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted April 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 21 hours ago, Kuja said: I plan to listen to my AR-90s for a long time , so I have used film caps all the way because of their longevity (only the 350uF caps are NPE). This option is more expensive, but I will never have to recap again (except maybe for the 350uF). I've recapped speakers using Bennic NPE's, with F&F by-pass caps, and they sounded very good. Better than the stock parts, and the speakers weren't old. A new demo pair, in fact. But, I keep second guessing the use of the NPE's. Especially since Erse PulseX caps are so affordable. I guess I really want to max out the 90's as far as I can, (and afford to do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted April 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 15 minutes ago, genek said: It's really not possible to completely remove polyurethane from wood. There will always be some of it in the fibers. Once you have used whatever "remover" you find works best and have sanded the wood smooth, refinish it with something like Watco that includes a coating rather than a penetrating-only finish like BLO. Thanks for that! Refinishing doesn't scare me, but I don't do it often. Any and all tips are appreciated! Oh yea, after seeing some of the Naked-9's on here, I'm thinking about going all-wood on the 90's. I like the blanket, and will leave it. But, I 'may' not respray the black. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted April 14, 2016 Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 22 hours ago, Kuja said: (only the 350uF caps are NPE). This option is more expensive, but I will never have to recap again (except maybe for the 350uF). Hmmm, $21/speaker for film caps using Madisound's surplus 10's -- should make a fine looking array Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted April 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 34 minutes ago, owlsplace said: Hmmm, $21/speaker for film caps using Madisound's surplus 10's -- should make a fine looking array You could lay 'em down side-by-side-by-side, into a long strip. Then you could just glue 'em to the inside of a cabinet wall. A poly 350, and damping material, all in one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted April 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 Or, I could order 104 of the Madisound 10uF poly caps. That way, I could use them for all of the larger values! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 18 hours ago, Stimpy said: Or, I could order 104 of the Madisound 10uF poly caps. That way, I could use them for all of the larger values! Ha, ha, ha, that might be interesting ... probably need a few Carli's to trim out the values. Madisound used to give a ten cent break on over fifty cap orders -- either they are running out or everyone was ordering over fifty all the time. Here is an AR-5 Madisound surplus/Carli bank inside the original wax cap shell: Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 I noticed that the 50 qty price break had disappeared. Oh well. Though, I still 'might' try ordering a huge bunch. I've been emailing Jeff at Sonic Craft (SoniCap), about this recap, and Jeff's minimum recommendation run's at $264 per speaker! Good parts, and I appreciate his input, but that's a bit outside my budget. So, I'll have to compromise somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted April 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 These were the suggestions from Jeff, at Sonic Craft. Looks good, but still a little more that I wanted to spend. Guess I'll have to order a few at a time. "High-pass: Mills MRA-5 resistors: http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/mills-watt-c-29_53_62 4uF G1/200VDC: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/gen-sonicap-uf-200vdc-p-429 6uF Dynamicap E/210V: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/dynamicap-6uf-210vdc-p-155 Upper mid: Mills MRA-10 resistors: http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/mills-10-watt-c-29_53_295 22uF Supreme: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-supreme-22uf-600vdc-p-4213 If you are concerned about trimming it up, this would be the most economical match: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/kimber-kap-22uf-200vdc-p-4650 8uF G1/200VDC: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/gen-sonicap-uf-200vdc-p-446 6.8uF + 33uF Ecap: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-cap-plain-68uf-70vdc-50vac-p-4076 + http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-cap-plain-33uf-70vdc-50vac-p-4078 Mills MRA-5 for the RLC network resistor: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/60-ohm-mills-mra-p-564 Lower mid: 5 Ohm parallel a pair of these: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/10-ohm-mills-mra-10-p-3609 3 Ohm parallel a pair of these: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/ohm-mills-mra-12-p-687 33uF + 47uF EVO Oil: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-mcap-evo-oil-33uf-450vdc-p-4163 + http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-mcap-evo-oil-47uf-350vdc-p-4167 Low value 33uF EVO Oil: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-mcap-evo-oil-33uf-450vdc-p-4163 Low-pass: 350uF Ecap: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-cap-plain-82uf-50vdc-35vac-p-4073 + http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-cap-raw-270uf-63vdc-23vac-p-4065 1 Ohm resistor: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/ohm-mills-mra-12-p-696" Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 That's an expensive way to go IMO. I thought paralleling resistors cuts everything in half - ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted April 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 28 minutes ago, DavidR said: I thought paralleling resistors cuts everything in half - ? It does. Jeff recommended 2 10 ohm resistors for the 5 value, and 2 12s for the 6. I guess to give the resistors a higher 20 watt power handling capacity. Jeff makes some good recommendations, but there's no why that I can spend $100 bucks just for 2 of the tweeter and UMR caps alone, and still need 6 more caps per speaker. Instead, I'm considering ClarityCap ESA and PX caps for the tweeter circuit, and Mundorf EVO Oil for the UMR. Other than those, it's Dayton 5% poly's, and NPE's for the not as critical low-pass shunt values. Still very good, but a lot more affordable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted May 2, 2016 Report Share Posted May 2, 2016 Quote there's no why that I can spend $100 bucks just for 2 of the tweeter and UMR caps alone, and still need 6 more caps per speaker. Instead, I'm considering ClarityCap ESA and PX caps for the tweeter circuit, and Mundorf EVO Oil for the UMR. Other than those, it's Dayton 5% poly's, and NPE's for the not as critical low-pass shunt values. I would suggest just going to PE or Madisound and buying plain wire-wound resistors for about 1/10 the cost of the Mills. Better yet--leave the originals in there. They don't go bad unless there was a problem and you see scorching. I'd just use Daytons (or Carlis, or paralleled Surplus caps or Solens or Erse) for the rest, except the low-pass which would be either NPE (Dayton, Bennic) or paralleled NPE + film. Save your money for records, CDs, more speakers, single malt Scotch............ -Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted May 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2016 8 minutes ago, JKent said: Save your money for records, CDs, more speakers, single malt Scotch............ Well, I'm a weirdo I guess, and I don't drink. But, records, CDs, and more speakers always works! Also, for some reason, this recap has gotten under my skin, and inside my head. I really want to do the speakers justice. I think it's as much to see if a quality recap will sound better, and if I can hear the difference, as much as it is to get the speakers up and playing again. So, I've been reading as much info as I can find concerning opinions on capacitor sound quality, and which brands to investigate. I'm starting to form a plan of attack, on what to potentially use. Nothing super expensive, but hopefully (budget willing), no NPEs either, other than the 350uF bass shunt. Parts Express has their Dayton 5% polys currently on sale, and I'll start first with buying those for the parallel caps, at least. For the series caps, I'm thinking about a ClarityCap ESA for the 4.0 uF tweeter position, and maybe an Audyn Plus Cap for the 6.0uF. For the UMR, I'd really like to spring for a Mundorf EVO Oil. But, I'm stuck on what to use for the LMR, as I'd like to use something that offers very good detail and resolution (snap), and I don't know what cap that would be? Most cap reviews talk about treble response, and never mention the quality of the (mid)bass sound? I'll probably just stick with the Dayton's here too. I just wish I could find more info on how an Audyn Q4, or a Jantzen CrossCap, or even an Erse Pulse X would work for the 80.0uF cap? All three are around $20 for the LMR cap. Though, I'll more than likely end up using the standard Dayton's here too. And be happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted May 2, 2016 Report Share Posted May 2, 2016 20 hours ago, Stimpy said: Well, I'm a weirdo I guess, and I don't drink. But, records, CDs, and more speakers always works! Also, for some reason, this recap has gotten under my skin, and inside my head. I really want to do the speakers justice. I think it's as much to see if a quality recap will sound better, and if I can hear the difference, as much as it is to get the speakers up and playing again. So, I've been reading as much info as I can find concerning opinions on capacitor sound quality, and which brands to investigate. I'm starting to form a plan of attack, on what to potentially use. Nothing super expensive, but hopefully (budget willing), no NPEs either, other than the 350uF bass shunt. .................................. http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/1431-capacitor-myths/ I drove myself nuts too and more nutty the more I read. Then I read the post above. I think the only time you can possibly hear a difference between 'properly made' poly caps is with higher voltage ratings. Something to do with microphonics thru the dielectric. Several members like to use mylar (polyster) on the tweeter and UMR as they aren't as 'bright' (I don't like to use the word bright because it means different things to different people). I think I probably drove many members here nutty too with my vacillating blither on the subject .............. sorry guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Is this stupid? Can a motor capacitor work in a loudspeaker crossover? It's a poly film cap, 350uF 250v. Plus, it's only $12.09 each. It'd be awesome if it would work. Non Polar AC 250V 50Hz 350uF Polypropylene Film Motor Run Capacitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted May 5, 2016 Report Share Posted May 5, 2016 On 5/3/2016 at 7:25 PM, Stimpy said: Is this stupid? Can a motor capacitor work in a loudspeaker crossover? It's a poly film cap, 350uF 250v. Plus, it's only $12.09 each. It'd be awesome if it would work. Non Polar AC 250V 50Hz 350uF Polypropylene Film Motor Run Capacitor I don't know the real answer. It's not for audio applications but on the other hand the paralleled cap shunts frequencies to ground. It should not play a role in SQ - maybe. The only reason to use large film caps in the shunt position is so you never have to go back in to change an NPE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stimpy Posted August 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 While I'm awaiting my recovery from my back injury, and a return to work, where I start making money again, I haven't made any progress with my AR90 recap refurb. Other than listening to them again, and thinking about everything I can do to make my 90s look and sound like new once more. Which brings me to the point of this. I've seen pictures of "Naked 9s", and loved the look. So, that got me to wondering; is there Walnut veneer under the flat black front of the 90? The sides too, around the woofers? While I'll leave the Acoustic Blanket in place, I'd love to strip the paint and leave the Walnut, if possible? Make my 90s look more like the 9s. Could that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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