Uncle Choppy Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Greetings Gentlemen. I am contemplating these three speakers for bookcase placement in a medium sized room: Acoustic Research 11, KLH Model 5, Allison Four. I would value your thoughts regarding how they compare with one another in terms of 1) quality of cabinet construction 2) clarity and naturalness of sound 3) warmth vs brightness of tones and 4) listener fatigue value. I like a wide variety of music: medieval, renaissance, swing, beebop, blues, Celtic, Scandinavian folk, organ, opera and orchestral, and a good helping of classic rock. Many thanks for your ideas. Best wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidDru Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 I can respond in regards to the Model Fives. They are a really good choice. Better looking than most if not all AR's. In terms of sound quality, they give the AR3 a run for it's money. And with money in mind, are a much better value than the 3's as you usually see them going for about $250 vs $600 or more. I would say they have that warm full KLH sound - east coast. As far as bookcase placement, they are not small and may be best on stands. But then again, depending on what your bookcase is like, whats the difference. What will be powering these choices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Tough choice. I've owned all 3, "sort of". I agree with David regarding the KLH Fives. Great speakers and beautiful to look at. As I understand it, the AR-11 is basically an updated AR-3a. My 3a's have AR-11 mids and Hi-Vi tweets so they may be similar to the 11s.I love them and they are my main classic speakers now. I owned Allison: Fours for many years and they are great little speakers but NOT for bookshelf placement. They must be hung on a wall, about a foot from the ceiling so the upward-firing woofer will reflect properly. All good choices but given the placement and your choice of music, I'd say the KLH or AR, leaning toward the AR. The Allison, besides being placement-dependant, are 2-way systems with 8" woofers. The AR and KLH are 3-way with 12" (ish) woofers for your organ music and the ARs have modern ferro-fluid cooled (I think) tweets that will handle the rock music safely. I don't think you could go wrong with either and, truth be told I have never owned real AR-11s myself but that's the way I'm leaning. YMMV Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 I have compared the KLH Five, Allison Four and the AR-11 together in the same listening room in my old audio store. I owned a pair of KLH Fives for a period of time, and I liked them very much. The Five's midrange is excellent, too, and the speaker "images" quite well for those who like that quality, but the off-axis response suffers a bit because of the configuration of the cone midrange drivers, the same as in the Twelve. The Allison Four must be kept free of upper shelves, etc., so it is best placed on a shelf or hung on the wall. It has bass response that lags about a third-octave below the KLH Five and the AR-11, but it is rarely noticed except on powerful kick-drum bass or organ or orchestral music with bass drum. However, the Four has much wider treble dispersion than either of the other two, and it therefore gives a more spacious, airy sound. It is a two-way speaker, and therefore it lacks the clarity in the lower midrange when compared with the AR-11 or KLH Five. So there are trade-offs here, but the Allison will surprise you every time! The AR-11 outshines either of the two other speakers in bass response, mainly because the AR-11 woofer is simply more potent, with lower distortion, than either of the other two. It can play louder in the lower registers. The Five -- similar to the original The Advent Loudspeaker -- has nearly the same bass resonance (fc of about 45 Hz), and is close to the AR-11. On most music there would be hardly any difference, but the AR-11 (or AR-3/AR-3a, etc.) definitely has the advantage with high-output, low-frequency music. The AR-11 also has wider dispersion throughout the midrange and treble, and it is smoother and more "airy" sounding than the Five. The Five for the money is the winner here, but in terms of pure performance, the AR-11 wins. These are all excellent speakers, no doubt about it, and you probably would be happy with any of them. --Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genek Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 I echo Tom's views, and would also add that the AR-11 and the other ADD series speakers all just look "wrong" when you lay them on their sides in a traditional bookshelf installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Choppy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Great answers! Many thanks for your wonderful replies so far. Just a few clarifications. Regarding power, 70s or 80s-90s solid state. The speakers will live on top of bookcases, not inside them, with about 12-18 inches of airspace between speaker and ceiling, but no more than six inches of airspace between speaker cabinet and back wall. Considering these factors, would the Allison 4s still place third in the race? Best wishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Interesting topic and discussion, and the feedback from David, Kent, and Tom is very well informed. Couple of comments about visual aesthetics. The KLH Five was clearly a flagship model in terms of marketing and performance, but it also exhibited extra design effort in visual distinction - - - namely, the grille perimeter black edging and the beveled cabinet profile. Appealing visual details perhaps, but I have never been enamored by the beige grille cloth or the clunky KLH logo badge, and IMO, the "classic" AR wins this battle hands down. About the ADD series, I believe genek may have expressed this opinion before, and while I do not disagree, the company marketing team obviously felt otherwise about horizontal orientation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Hi Choppy The ss amps will provide plenty of power. Your placement would work for the Allison: Fours and they are wonderful speakers. If you listened to jazz and chamber music, folk and acoustic they'd be great. But the other 2 have more balls on the bottom and the AR-11 has, I believe, a less delicate tweeter. Tom echoed my sentiments but gave more technical and complete answers. He also brought up the economic factor: The KLH Fives are under-valued and will give you the most bang for the buck. I think the Allisons are a bit over-priced compared to other excellent classic speakers. I don't know whether cost is a factor, but given your very wide range of musical tastes and the kinds of demands all will place on your speakers, I think the ARs still come out on top. One other thought: When Allison marketed the Fours they also sold an "electronic subwoofer" to make up for the limitations of that speaker in the very lowest registers. When I had Allisons I took a different approach and added a VMPS sub that went easily down to 20Hz. Good for organ music! Still, all good choices. -Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakecat Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 On 3/8/2016 at 10:05 PM, ra.ra said: Interesting topic and discussion, and the feedback from David, Kent, and Tom is very well informed. Couple of comments about visual aesthetics. The KLH Five was clearly a flagship model in terms of marketing and performance, but it also exhibited extra design effort in visual distinction - - - namely, the grille perimeter black edging and the beveled cabinet profile. Appealing visual details perhaps, but I have never been enamored by the beige grille cloth or the clunky KLH logo badge, and IMO, the "classic" AR wins this battle hands down. About the ADD series, I believe genek may have expressed this opinion before, and while I do not disagree, the company marketing team obviously felt otherwise about horizontal orientation. Ra......I went to www.radiomuseum to find this ad you have posted here as I want to print it out.....but I could not find anything about speakers. Can you give me a link to this? I really like my 12's and want this ad....thanks for any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 lakecat, PM has been sent with one-page of AR-12 product literature. I was unsuccessful trying to include this good AR-12 schematic, so even at the risk of going off-topic in this thread, I'll just include it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronan Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 On 3/7/2016 at 7:31 AM, DavidDru said: I can respond in regards to the Model Fives. They are a really good choice. Better looking than most if not all AR's. In terms of sound quality, they give the AR3 a run for it's money. And with money in mind, are a much better value than the 3's as you usually see them going for about $250 vs $600 or more. I would say they have that warm full KLH sound - east coast. As far as bookcase placement, they are not small and may be best on stands. But then again, depending on what your bookcase is like, whats the difference. What will be powering these choices? To me the AR-3s is the luxurious of those three.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I realize that this post has nothing whatsoever to do with "Uncle Choppy's" original post, but I have to admit that I, too, think the AR-3 is the most elegant, beautiful of all of the AR speakers -- particularly in the lacquered finishes. This AR-3, SN A 7803, was used in the San Francisco Airport Museum display, This AR-3 and its mate, A 7801, are in nearly mint condition and work amazingly well with clear, clean midrange and treble (sometimes a bit rare on the old speakers). The beauty of the AR-3 is remarkable, in my view! The relative lighting in each picture shows the coloring differently. This is the way the AR-3 is supposed to look! --Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidDru Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Tom those are some great looking AR3's for sure. I do wish we could get the gold thread Mellotone grille material today. Oh how I would like to hear a pair of 3's that perform at or near original spec just to understand better how time has impacted them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samberger0357 Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Agree with Tom regarding aesthetics. The 3's top them all. I didn't fully grasp how beautiful they were until I opened up the pocket book for a pair of my own. But it's the sound that has truly impressed me. I had a restored pair of 5's, and I while I enjoyed them, they never were able to make me pump music through them with the devotion that I have for the 3's(or the KLH Model 6's, for that matter). There was always just something that didn't sit right with me. Not so the 3's(sorry, haven't tried the 3a's). Everything, and I mean, everything, sounds just right with them. They aren't fussy as to set up(at least for me), they sound good/great with pretty much any amp I throw at them(including lower power tube amps like my Fisher 500B...although it's absolutely true that their best sounds come from high current, high power solid state),and every type of music. I dare say I will never find another pair of speakers I enjoy so much, and I have stopped trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronan Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 A minty nice pair, is that a cherry finish on the cabinets Sam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samberger0357 Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 You know, I'm not sure. Looks like it, but I never got confirmation from the person whose they originally were and did the restoration. I'll have to ask him again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 great thread! Welcome Uncle Choppy. While I can't answer the question exactly as I have only owned the 5's in question I will still chime in. I had a few high school friends who had 5's back in the mid '70s and I always liked them, at least better than the at the time popular Large Advents. Vintage AR's were then and continue to be my personal favorites.....however, I recently picked up a minty pair of 5's and have reworked the crossovers with new Solens and new (higher rated) resistors. I have put maybe ten hours of listening since resealing the cabs up and I immediately remembered the sound. They do have a unique sound to my ear, approaching too bright but not fatiguing sound. I generally have them dialed back also. They sound nice enough at low volumes, say 9:00 on the thoroughly refurb-ed 2230 that I use in the work room, but sound much better when opened up say to 12:00. I have no reservations saying these would be contenders in any comparison like this. They are also a very pleasing to the eye cabinet. The thing that struck me was your description of where they will live, which sort of changes this particular equation. While I have not heard the 4's, they appear to be even larger than the 5's laid down and I gotta wonder visually that would look like. They obviously have to be in one orientation and that is flat and wider than tall. Would you flip them so woofer is not facing the ceiling? There seems to be no dispute that all three are very good sounding speakers, and concentrating solely on the aesthetics I would vote against the 4's and lean towards the smallest of the bunch which I believe would be the 11's. I am no designer factoring in the height you suggest, in a "medium" sized room, with book shelfs, my gut says the smallest, least imposing visually set. I am in the middle of some renovations and this type of quandary has been on my mind a good deal and sure, at the end of the day it is about the sound, but aesthetics should be considered for a final speaker placement. $.02 Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 re-reading this, Kent has said that your placement choice may in fact lend itself to realizing their potential so forget about my upside down comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 On 3/9/2016 at 11:28 AM, samberger0357 said: Agree with Tom regarding aesthetics. The 3's top them all. I didn't fully grasp how beautiful they were until I opened up the pocket book for a pair of my own. But it's the sound that has truly impressed me. I had a restored pair of 5's, and I while I enjoyed them, they never were able to make me pump music through them with the devotion that I have for the 3's(or the KLH Model 6's, for that matter). There was always just something that didn't sit right with me. Not so the 3's(sorry, haven't tried the 3a's). Everything, and I mean, everything, sounds just right with them. They aren't fussy as to set up(at least for me), they sound good/great with pretty much any amp I throw at them(including lower power tube amps like my Fisher 500B...although it's absolutely true that their best sounds come from high current, high power solid state),and every type of music. I dare say I will never find another pair of speakers I enjoy so much, and I have stopped trying. Stunning, as I commented on these a while back on AK as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samberger0357 Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Thank you sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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