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[floydfan]

Hi all

This is my first post on this forum. I have posted on The HiFi subjectivist and Vinyl Engine mainly on DIY topics.

I have renovated a Pioneer PL71, JPW speakers and, my last project, a pair of Goodman Dimension 8s.

I had a pair of AR6 speakers which I gave to my son over 15 years ago. He gave me them back when he moved house and although cosmetically good the tweeters were shot and generic woofers had replaced the originals. I decided to try to bring them back to original, just for fun, but original drivers are very difficult to get hold of and, after some reading on this site, I purchased a pair of woofers (200036) from the USA and a pair of tweeters, said to be from AR18s (1210038-OB).

I have decided to just install these and have a listen. There are two areas I am still considering;

Replacing the capacitors. I am reluctant to do this, although in my other speaker renovations I replaced with upgraded caps., as the crossover is covered in a brownish clear gunk and I am not sure as to it's purpose or how to safely remove it.

The Ar6 diagram indicates a capacitor and a resistor in parallel with the woofers. I am not sure if I should do this with the different woofers I have.

I would be grateful for any advice or comments even if negative.

Cheers

[djcheung]

Hi welcome

Does it look anything like this ?

[ra.ra]

Hello floydfan, and welcome to the CSP forum.

The AR-6 had at least three distinct versions, and it is always more helpful if we can view some pics of your specific variety. It'd be good to at least see your drivers, the cabinet backside, and the crossover. All of these items had multiple variations, as did the cabinet styling and grille cloth as well. Since you are in Scotland, it is likely that yours follow some of the typical Euro configuration. Post some photos and you will receive the most appropriate advice.

The 038 is an excellent tweeter, and it was employed in the AR-18s and 38s, and should work well in your AR-6. It is rear-wired, contains ferrofluid, and should have the S-shaped lead wires on the front face, but offhand I'm not familiar with its associated crossover cap value in the 18 and 38 speaker models.

The 036 woofer was employed as the lower midrange in the AR-93. It might work fine for your purpose, but as you'll see in the thread attached, the suitable inter-changeability of AR's 8" drivers can be a bit confusing to de-code.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=7897

View the link in post #16 here to see the three known versions of the AR-6 schematic.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=7901

[floydfan]

The cap is a metal cylinder.

I will check out how to post photos and got some on.

[DavidDru]

for photos, just click on the "more option" tab on the bottom right of the dialogue box. A more complex box will open and the attach files option is at the bottom.

Welcome to CSP. as you can see from the above posts, folks here know their stuff and are helpful.

[owlsplace]

Welcome,

Here are the three crossover versions:

Roger

[ra.ra]

To add to David's comments, jpeg format seems to work best for pics, and 100KB file size is more than sufficient. You have to first click "Choose File", and after that registers, click "Attach This File". I also advise using "Preview Post" to proofread before submitting your post with "Add Reply".

Not sure if this reflects your situation, but here is a view of the AR-6 version B, with the three-position switch, as shown in Roger's post.

[floydfan]

It does look like version B but cap looks different. I don't have the original woofers so assume the extra cap and resister attached to the woofers may need to be added to my replacement woofers. Not sure what to do as I am uncertain about the function of these missing parts.

Anyway I will try to add photos.

[owlsplace]

In your case I would just wire it with a 6uf cap (ver C).

Roger

[ra.ra]

Am enjoying this project, which is clearly a mod and not a restoration, but since I am unable to offer further time-tested advice, I will merely throw out some more food for thought. By all appearances, your drivers all look to be in fine condition, and we see that you have the Euro-style cabinets with the thin front edge profile. It still might be helpful if you could share a pic of the crossover you have, and perhaps someone with more technical skill can help you best decide how to combine and blend your chosen drivers into these cabinets.

It is interesting to note how each of the three AR-6 crossovers' wiring varies, and for what it's worth, the final version C appears to be fully identical to the crossover used in the AR-7 (see attached).

A Woofer: coil

A Tweeter: 10uF cap, coil, pot, NiCr wire, in-phase

B Woofer: coil, plus "zobel" (cap and resistor)

B Tweeter: 10uF cap, 3-position switch w/resistors, out-of-phase

C Woofer: no filter

C Tweeter: 6uF cap, 2-position switch w/resistor, out-of-phase

Also FYI, the 038 tweeter was used in the 18s model with a 5uF cap, but when it was used in the larger 38s model, it used a 6uF cap: each model had a published x-o freq. of 2000Hz. This tweeter should work just fine for your project, but you may have to experiment to assign the best cap value.

Also FYI, comparative cabinet volumes:

AR-7: 0.35 cu-ft

AR18s: 0.35 cu-ft

AR-6: 0.65 cu-ft

AR38s: 1.31 cu-ft

The wild card just might be adapting this woofer for your configuration. Perhaps it'll be fine "as-is", running full range with no added components, but that is really difficult to predict at this stage since you are combining drivers not normally combined within the same cabinet, except for the AR-93 which is a much larger vertical three-way speaker model.

[owlsplace]

Following ra.ra's lead I decided to kill a little pre-game time here as we work up to Brady kissing Manning's proverbial butt -- here is an earlier thread on working out some issues with AR's 2-way crossovers which is well worth your time it you are interested.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5815&hl=crossover&page=1

Roger

[floydfan]

Read through the thread on crossovers and found it was a difficult read, will try again later. I meant to post a picture of the crossover but forgot. I will put one up.

I think I would like to try as simple a mod as possible as I am a bit ham fisted and usually end up breaking a few bits before I am finished.

The crossover is very well stapled in and I am sure I will do some damage trying to lever it out but working through the woofer aperture on the circuit looks difficult

I will give it some thought and try to get my head round the useful and interesting comments I have had so far before I get into the work.

[owlsplace]

Working through the woofer hole can be a challenge often simplified by using crimp or twist connectors which shouldn't be too difficult if you go with the version "C" crossover. The original is version "B" but since you are using different drivers you would have to experiment and see if the sound is acceptable to your ears.

I restored one of these with original drivers and would recommend replacing that capacitor with a film cap.

If you decide to use the version "B" crossover you could use a single npe cap w/resistor across the woofer terminals or in my case I stacked two 10MFD Madisound surplus caps and a Carli 3.9MFD w/resistor.

I also restored an "A" version Euro model. If I remember correctly the boards were not particularly well attached on one or both of these. If you do remove the boards you will need to restore the acoustic seal. Mark the board position before removing it to simplify alignment when reinstalling.

Here is the thread on that restore: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=8372

I am using these on a regular basis and quite pleased with the outcome although I will probably add a piezoelectric tweeter array to the stack which Carl mentioned on one of the other forums. They are all fused to protect those hard-to-find drivers.

Klauss remains the undisputed AR-6 king as he has the Copenhagen Opera House AR-6 collection. Here is another relevant thread:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=1687

And a comment from Klauss from that thread: "The AR-6 with the newest version X-over is a marvelous speaker that really surprises most audiophiles. The quality of the bass coming out of that speaker is unbelievable. The Royal Opera House speakers I have restored until now, I have changed crossover to the new style single cap only, since the woofer is the new type."

update: Upon reading more of that thread RoyC mentions the "A" version crossovers using a mislabeled #5 coil so perhaps the current "A,B,C" version schematics are not definitive.

Roger

[floydfan]

Hi Roger

I have been looking again at my crossover and definitely B but the inductor and capacitor are on the negative paths to their drive units, don't suppose this matters.

I have tried to remove the crossovers but they are glued and stapled in and won't come out without damage. I thought I might short out the inductor and put in a 6mf polyester cap in place of the 10 mf; so it will be a C crossover. I am not exactly sure what a twist connector is like but I have crimping pliers for car electrics. They are a bit big for the job but should be ok. To replace the capacitor I will have to cut the leads and attach the new one on top of the old one as it is glued in place. A bit untidy but hopefully ok.

I am hopeful, from the input from RaRa, that these drive units should be good.

Jim

[floydfan]

Just a quick update. I have investigated twist connectors and they don't seemed to be approved for use in Europe. Which I think is strange as they are supposed to have been invented by a Scot and you can buy them on ebay uk

[owlsplace]

Jim,

Sounds like you have a handle on it! Let us know how they sound.

Roger

[floydfan]

On ‎23‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 2:29 PM, owlsplace said:

In your case I would just wire it with a 6uf cap (ver C).

Roger

Hi Roger  I have managed to cut out the capacitor and replaced with a Solen 6 micro farad capacitor. I have also cut the inductor out of circuit and replaced with some large diameter copper stranded wire. I soldered through the woofer aperture, so not very pretty.

At the moment I am listening to them through one of my cheap amps (Cambridge Audio A1) from a feed from my computer. They sound very respectable with excellent bass reproduction but on some recordings vocals can be a bit sibilant. Later today I will connect up to my main system, which has an 80 Watt/channel NVA A80 amp, and do some listening. I am not exactly sure what an original AR6 sounds like but I can say that replacing the originals with my later drive units give a fine sounding speaker.

Jim

[owlsplace]

7 hours ago, floydfan said:

Hi Roger  I have managed to cut out the capacitor and replaced with a Solen 6 micro farad capacitor. I have also cut the inductor out of circuit and replaced with some large diameter copper stranded wire. I soldered through the woofer aperture, so not very pretty.

At the moment I am listening to them through one of my cheap amps (Cambridge Audio A1) from a feed from my computer. They sound very respectable with excellent bass reproduction but on some recordings vocals can be a bit sibilant. Later today I will connect up to my main system, which has an 80 Watt/channel NVA A80 amp, and do some listening. I am not exactly sure what an original AR6 sounds like but I can say that replacing the originals with my later drive units give a fine sounding speaker.

Jim

I thought they would sound decent.

The sibilance may be just the source material or cap may need some break-in. Not sure why a film cap would need breaking in but some say they do... possibly also the tweeter polarity but I haven't tried swapping polarity to see how the sound changes.

Roger

[floydfan]

Hi Again

It's been a while since I was last on but I am listening to my modified AR6s, still on my computer, and can say they are great speakers. I tried with my big system replacing my Goodmans Dimension Eights but they didn't quite fill my big  room. I am using them near field and they do the job very well. I find I am listening to them more often than my main system. So a very worthwhile project. I haven't heard proper Ar6s so can't compare but I am happy. p.s sibilance has gone.

I probably won't be working with another AR speaker as parts are not so available over here but I would like to say that it has been a pleasure on this site as it is very informative and the posts I have read have all been polite and instructive, which is not true of many hi fi sites I visit.

I will visit to read the interesting work being done on here but thanks for the help and keep up the good work.

[owlsplace]

Glad all worked out for you -- my 6's are currently idle but always enjoyable when played.

There must me more than a few AR speakers in the Emerald Isles as I have a few sets here that came from there originally.

Enjoy,

Roger