“ Listening to AR speakers, the way they were meant to be listened to”.

[frankmarsi]

12-28-15

“ Listening to AR speakers, the way they were meant to be listened to”.

For all of you AR speakers owners that still listen to CD as your source for judging AR speakers and more importantly judging music, wake up!

CDs are not the source that AR used for designing and building AR speakers, their primary source was more than likely the physical source, the old stand-by for music reproduction, the nearly one hundred year old medium and technology, the minuscule record groove.

I can imagine that you ‘nuts and bolts’ guys out there playing around with potentiometers, capacitors and the like have been using CD as part of your ‘testing- parameters’.

In most cases using low to medium priced CD players to judge the quality of your AR speakers, an almost sad realization that isn’t really allowing you to hear the heart, the soul of music.

Admittedly, SACD players may approach and in some case may even equal the sound quality of a good condition and quality vinyl pressing but, most do not use SACDs because of their high cost and limited selection of musical choices.

Speaking for myself, I use vinyl records for 98% of my musical enjoyment. Admittedly, I clean my records on a VPI 16.5 RCM and I’m presently considering the purchase of an ultra-sonic RCM, but generally speaking most folks can get by with less costly means of keeping their vinyl records in good listenable shape.

Speaking of my ability to be ‘excessive’ in my usual neurotic approach of most ‘things’ I get ‘into’, I’ve purchased over 6000 used records in the last ten years. Surely, some records are not in the greatest of condition but, in most cases some of these disks are of recordings that probably will never be reproduced again so, I just had to have them in any condition. Nonetheless, it’s amazing what pleasure can be realized with a good condition vinyl record if cleaned properly. It’s also amazing how well most vinyl has actually held-up all these years, dormant in many folks collections before they sold them to some used record store. In fact, just three months ago, I purchased a used record for $4.99 in very good condition, I cleaned it and it sounded excellent. I then check the auction site and in the same condition it's going for $150.00

In another sense, judging AR speakers with other sources, is almost counter-productive in that AR as mentioned above had to use a mostly vinyl ‘front-end’ in producing and testing their hard earned points of making a quality loud speaker. Although, in the interest of full-disclosure, I bet they must have used high quality tape machines too. Some insiders predict that tape may make a ‘come-back’ in the very near future.

I wish I knew what actual turntables and cartridges AR used but that information may be lost in time?

Vinyl, especially reclaimed good condition records can render excellent quality musical enjoyment like no other source. There is certainly nothing like the almost religious-experience and procedure of placing a vinyl disk on a quality turntable. Placing that quality cartridge on the ‘run-in’ groove is also something to behold. Well it is certainly, for vinyl freaks much like myself.

So, get off of your speaker rebuilding ‘grease-monkey, speaker repair-guy’ laurels and be the actual race car driver and partake in the vinyl revolution that’s been brewing for over the last ten years now and get in the ‘groove’ and enjoy music the way it was best meant to sound through the wonderful world of vinyl records.

**NEWS-FLASH**: As a supporting shot in the arm, “Columbia-House” has announced today that they are in 2016 rejuvenating their old vinyl record club. Holy-moly what is that saying? In fact many current music making groups are insisting that their music is recorded on vinyl besides the usual CD numbers produced.

Most of you older AR freaks probably will remember in the early seventies and before the many record clubs where you bought 8 records and received two free records every month, or some sort of deal like that?

As a young person back then I too joined the ‘club’, but I quit because my money was spent on other things like dating girls and the purchase of my still owned original AR-3as. Amplifiers also took my money so, I was content with the 300 vinyl disks I already had at that point. However, lately, well since 2005, I have delved into the extreme by finally purchasing the music I wasn’t able to afford back then due to the lack of funds.

So, rejoice, refurbish your old AR speakers and then sit back and get back into vinyl, the true source of musical listening pleasure!

fm

http://kroq.cbslocal.com/2015/12/27/columbia-house-to-relaunch-with-vinyl-mail-order-service/

[owlsplace]

Yeah, stopped into Barnes&Noble the other day and was surprised to see a lot of vinyl on display. I currently have two turntables which are not working and neither one is anything special. I collected vinyl over the years as well, so I will have to make a New Year's resolution ... don't have a couple of grand to spend on cartridges though.

Roger

[K6cdxkms]

Just a little touchy over this issue are we?

I say to capture the "sad realization that isn’t really allowing you to hear the heart, the soul of music." cannot be accomplished via vinyl only, one must have cd's as well as tape to do that .

Look at it this way which captures the heart and soul of a composure/song, a concert version or a studio version.

I day both do --------- you go to the concert to capture the experience . You buy the concert version (vinyl or cd ) .to retain the memory.

Either one is good enough for that since 90% of the time the crowd interferes with the music as you are listening. Like I said the experience.

Now you buy the studio version you get a version that they try to produce on stage but never quite get there, However the studio version you can hear all of the notes , all of the vocals, correct timing of the song, instrumentals, the lows , mid's, highs. either vinyl or cd captures all of that.

It just depends on how you want to listen to your music , and how much time you want to put into listening to "music".

My preference is place 200 cd's into a machine and let it rock while I am around the house. I have lost all of the notes from 8kz and up in my right ear so I doubt I could tell the deference from vinyl or a cd today. I expect that most out there are the same way.

As for old stuff that is not on cd , play the vinyl, record to a cd and enjoy, most ears could not tell the deference and you save the vinyl so you can record again.

[genek]

If you look back at the equipment that was being used by AR for its "live vs recorded" demos, if playback hardware really defines the "heart" and "soul" of music, then what you really need is analog 7" open-reel recordings at 7.5 IPS.

[tysontom]

If you look back at the equipment that was being used by AR for its "live vs recorded" demos, if playback hardware really defines the "heart" and "soul" of music, then what you really need is analog 7" open-reel recordings at 7.5 IPS.

Yeah, you might even take it further if the "source" material is the guide to the ultimate AR-speaker sound reproduction. For the Live-versus-Recorded Fine Arts Quartet and AR-3 speakers, the playback was done through an Ampex AG-350-2, playing at 15 ips on full two track. This gave the Ampex a nearly flat 30-18,000 Hz and a S/N ratio of about 60 dB (some "hiss" could be heard by listeners very close to the front of the concerts). For the Nickelodeon-AR-3 LvR demonstrations, a Magnecord 1028 2-track recorder was used, also at 15ips and flat from 30-18kHz at about 58dB SNR.

The original master tapes used in the AR Live-vs.-Recorded Fine Arts Quartet and Gustavo Lopez guitar concerts

Ampex 350, type used in the Fine Arts Quarter and Gustavo Lopez recordings

Magnecord 1028-2 two-track, 15ips recorder used in the AR-3/Nickelodeon LvR.

--Tom Tyson

[stupidhead]

While I agree that vinyl is a superior medium, I would venture a guess of only about 5% of my listening is done this way. The vast majority is done from high res vinyl rips and is quite satisfactory. The flexibility of using a digital source makes it far simpler/easier than vinyl. Where I will draw the line generally is low quality compressed files, lossless formats are far superior. There is a difference to my ears, but my ears are not what they once were either.

Bottom line in my mind is if it sounds good to the listener and you enjoy the experience then questing for the "best" is not critical.

Geoff

[owlsplace]

If you look back at the equipment that was being used by AR for its "live vs recorded" demos, if playback hardware really defines the "heart" and "soul" of music, then what you really need is analog 7" open-reel recordings at 7.5 IPS.

Well, back in the 70's when I still had some semblance of reasonable hearing, I transferred all my vinyl onto 7" reels. The Tandberg 9200xd I used sounded great at 3-3/4ips.

Big problem with this format is storage and access. You can't just pull an album off the shelf and drop a needle in a groove. Imagine how much effort it would have taken to random play 24/7 Xmas music for 12-days. I'd still be recovering my health and all the albums scattered all over the floor, which is not to say more is better -- it is more of a different strokes for different folks thing ...

Roger

[Aadams]

The vinyl vs digital argument/discussion has been going on for decades now and no minds will be changed here but it appears to be a civil thread so far and I want to add my opinion before this thing goes to the "kitchen". IMO at least one aspect of lossless digital playback is always superior to vinyl.

If you have ever listened to "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" or the end of " Night on Bare Mountain" you have experienced examples of moments where the music absolutely depends on background silence to be effective. There are many moments in Classical music where the transition to or from "silence" is crucial for impact. I have never heard a vinyl recording that did not begin or end with groove noise. Lossless digital OTOH is silent for all practical purposes.

Popular music almost never uses silence for effect and for this reason the difference between good quality vinyl playback and digital is not of much concern to me.

Digital is way more convenient.

Adams

[ar_pro]

If you have ever listened to "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" or the end of " Night on Bare Mountain" you have experienced examples of moments where the music absolutely depends on background silence to be effective. There are many moments in Classical music where the transition to or from "silence" is crucial for impact. I have never heard a vinyl recording that did not begin or end with groove noise.

This is an excellent point; absence of noise is a preferable circumstance under most conditions, but with certain types of music, it's critical.

In a similar vein, fortissimo conclusions of symphonies, concertos, and the like frequently wind up recorded to those pathetic inner grooves at the end of an LP, where the result seldom does justice to the overall recording.

I have an LP recording of the Philadelphia Orchestra performing the Ravel orchestration of Mussorgsky's Pictures At An Exhibition, whose finale is a spectacular acoustic experience; on LP, it all goes to crap in the inner grooves, but the same performance presented as a FLAC file is everything it should be!

[frankmarsi]

12-29-15

The newest piece of equipment I own are my two CD players (built in 1996 and 2008), and although they are not top of the line, they offer about 85% to 90% of what an expensive $2,000. range player can offer.

My system‘s two amps were made in 1980 and rebuilt in 2009.

My pre-amp built in 1980.

My turntables were built from 1968 to 1977.

My tone arms were built between 1968 & 1972.

My better cartridges are less than 3 years old, the latest two are 3 months old. all cartridges are fully 'broken-in'.

My adorable speakers were built in 1972.

My tuner was built in 1975.

My A77 tape deck was made in 1976.

My record collection ranges from the years of 1930 to 2014.

My point is, although I use what one can call ‘antiques’, after much effort to get things correct with proper tone arm, turntable and especially cartridge set up, I do not experience any perceivable ‘Inner Groove Distortion’ (IGD) of any sort!

I do know with used records that may have some wear, or imbedded dirt and were probably played on an inferior table, which probably carved the record to death, I might notice the slightest bit of IGD.

Although I might concur with some of the above expressed opinions, especially when listening to some classical music where there may be a pause as part of the piece, etc.

But, by using a higher quality cartridge and a properly cleaned record, noise is at a minimum. In fact the Delos stylus is known for such a degree of silence.

Regarding lack of any ‘IGD’, a perfect example is a disk of much merit with a huge crescendo at the very end of the piece is: “Moussorgsky’s” “Pictures at an Exhibition”, on the Philips label.

Granted it is an excellent recording and wonderfully pressed on the “Telarc” label, I did buy this record in 1979 at the original “J&R” classical music store so, it’s as old as my equipment and not a hint of IGD. As I mentioned, IGD is non-existent on 99.7% of all my records regardless of age, and only so if a record has been abused and played with inferior equipment.

I do understand that mechanically speaking on a vinyl disk, because of the crowding of groove-space at the end of a record versus the amount of information squeezed into that limited space sometimes IGD might be a problem generally speaking. However, not so on a quality label and pressing.

However, if one takes the time to accurately set-up their cartridge, arm and table, oh less I forget, a clean record, there really shouldn’t be any IGD.

Again, regarding any noise at the end of a piece, using a quality moving coil cartridge which generally has a lower noise rejection, it is barely heard the original tape hiss.

Except for ‘tape-hiss’ and that is sometimes a given on most any source, depending on when it was recorded, even on some CDs. The Hi-Fi’s industry term ‘warmth’ is seldom mentioned about most CDs, whereas in most any vinyl disk, it is a ubiquitous and prevalent term.

To avoid conflict, I’ll simple concede to an earlier post by some one and eventually, it does boil down to personal taste in the end. However, there is no one here or anyone I may know that’s going to make me waver on the point that vinyl is the chosen source for a quality listening experience. Certainly this can be disputed in a heated discussion, but lets not forget that many CDs made in the past will not measure up to presently manufactured ones. Apparently the CD industry has eliminated many of the format’s short comings and over all CDs have improved.

No, I’ve never heard a Gold SACD on a expensive above $2000. player, but why then do the ‘big-boys’ in most any current high-end publication across the board are so head strong in their opinions regarding the higher quality sound afforded by the vinyl disk?

Excuse me for now, I must get back to watching a 1956 movie entitled; “Earth vs. the Flying Saucers” on TV, the original, with an actor I never cared for, the ever unlikely “Hugh Marlow”.

Besides, after that I’m going to pay some respect to my system and give a good listening to the vinyl haul I made yesterday of another 40 used records, many of which (classical) that haven’t even been opened yet. I use a dedicated cork mat for unwashed records on my TD125 along with a lesser cartridge, a AT-440MLa for this purpose. If deemed likable, and after a good cleaning in the near future, I’ll play them with a more costly cartridge.

One doesn’t have that kind of fun with digital, do one?

P.S. Oh yeah, about the silly movie I mentioned earlier, it was made in 1956, isn’t that two years after Eddie V. developed and sold his first AR 12 inch woofer? And, for any of those ‘non-believers’, in many circles that woofer still receives and its later versions still recieve accolades as being one of the best woofers ever made.

Or, as the song goes by Roy Orbison, “But wait, what do I see?”

Come to think of it, the all time classic space movie, “The Day the Earth Stood Still” was made in 1951 and is of so much better quality. Filming, lighting, acting, graphics, backgrounds, and most of all, the music. The musical score is from one of my all time favorites, Bernard Herrmann. His scores are always noticed in any film for their sensitivity and strength along with mystery, un-predictability of timing and the sensitive depths of human spirit. A lot of classical and rock music can do that.

See, it’s just like the relative quality of vinyl disks and CDs.

By the way, I was forced by the alien to buy my copy of the movie’s sound track on CD as I wasn’t able to find it on vinyl, though I still search.

P.S. II, And another thing Alice! There’s no convincing me contrary to what I believe, as the proof lies in the fact that I own 3 to 4 hundred CDs any over 6000 vinyl disks, and please forgive me SteveF and a few others here, there’s not one Mel Torme recording in my collection.

P.S. III Go to a live concert of any type of music and you will definitely hear some noise of all sorts. On vinyl I can hear the breathing of Salvatore Accardo while playing his master piece of “Bach’s" Concertos and on some other classical records one can actually hear the turning of pages of sheet music in between movements.

fm

[owlsplace]

Frank, we need to reconvene at your place and record some albums from your analog equipment onto tape and CD and then do a blind A/B/C comparison after consuming lots of wine.

If we can locate some 15ips 10-inch master tapes, that will be even more entertaining.

In the meantime, enjoy

Roger

[ar_pro]

The linear speed of the vinyl passing under a stylus changes (slows) as the stylus is drawn closer & closer to the center of the record; the innermost portion of the groove on an LP passes at less than half the speed as the outermost portion.

This is not an ideal circumstance for reproducing an orchestra at full force.

[frankmarsi]

O.K. sounds like a good plan to offer a wonderful weekend of no less than 8 hours a day of listening.

I'm prepared to offer 2 to 3 days hotel nightly fees and food for two fortunate members to share what I am speaking about in my posts.

Room in the house is tight so a local hotel will have to do. The listening room is 26 X12, so not to worry about your time while here.

It's going to be my musical choices and pace in terms of what we listen to so, suck it up. Requests of musical choices are not to be considered, so f--k ya!

I don't have a CD recorder, but I can recommend the vintage Marantz 630 or newer and the like, so bring it along with you with decent cables.

My A77 Revox tape deck is only a 3&3/4 and & 7&1/2 speed two track, so it'll will have to do at 7&1/2. for comparison play-back. I even have a few NOS 10&1/2" UD180 Maxell 180 tapes ready to record. Not to worry once more as, two track is better than 4 track tape play-back quality.

Think of with in the next few months. Bring your pads and pencils, and if you're not too old, your memory pills. Don't forget your Medi_are card.

fm

[frankmarsi]

The linear speed of the vinyl passing under a stylus changes (slows) as the stylus is drawn closer & closer to the center of the record; the innermost portion of the groove on an LP passes at less than half the speed as the outermost portion.

This is not an ideal circumstance for reproducing an orchestra at full force.

Gee, why doesn't that sound correct?

You say half the speed? Perhaps the disk may afford half space but, certainly not at half-speed. I could be misunderstanding you though?

"Full force", then maybe you should be here when I play vinyl on the "Master's System. Mind you, the disk I mentioned will be playing and you can then tell me about full-force of an orchestra with a new experience in mind played by an old stereo system.

And another thing Alice, I've read some posts here about some members playing at lower volumes, how boring and unrealistic is that and for what reason does that take place?

Any knowledgeable AR speaker owner especially with the bigger models knows they must have serious amps powering them at higher volumes to be truly appreciated as accurate musical transducers. That, or somebody is not appreciating what they have?

Most live music is not played at low volumes except for where the piece requires it.

What's going on here? Gee.

fm

[JKent]

You say half the speed? Perhaps the disk may afford half space but, certainly not at half-speed. I could be misunderstanding you though?

Wasn't there a kids' game, back before computers, when we used to play outside, that involved joining hands and whipping around in a circle? The kids near the center were fine, because they were going much slower than the poor souls at the outer end.

Yes--the speed of the needle is slower on the inner grooves.

-Kent

[ar_pro]

It's true, Frank!

The LP will spin at a constant angular velocity (33.3 rpm), so the outermost and innermost portions of the groove will take the same amount of time to complete a single rotation; but since the distance that the stylus will need to travel per revolution is constantly decreasing as the stylus is drawn toward the center, the linear velocity decreases.

A stylus tracking the outermost portion of an LP's groove sees a linear velocity of about 20 inches per second, while a stylus tracking the innermost portion of the groove will see a linear velocity of about 8 inches per second.

Think about the relative effect that halving the running speed of a tape recorder would have on the quality of a recording.

.

[Jeff_C]

ar-pro is spot on.

Because the rotation speed is constant at 33.3 rpm the length of the groove (in reality for a LP record it is the circumference) represents a set amount of time. Each revolution of the record represents 60/33.33 = 1.8 seconds of time

Here's some rough measurements and some basic maths (pi estimates to 22/7)

inner groove radius = 60mm so circumference = 2 x 22/7 x 60 = 377mm
outer groove radius = 150mm so circumference = 2 x 22/7 x 150 = 943mm

At the inner groove the record manufacturer gets just 377mm to represent 1.8 seconds of music while at the outer groove gets 943mm to represent the same amount of music playing time 1.8 seconds. It seems obvious that it is easier to modulate the outer grooves with loud music than it is the inner grooves. It also seems obvious that it will be easier for a TT/arm/cartridge/stylus to track loud music at the outer grooves than the inner grooves.

[frankmarsi]

O.K. O.K. I understand the rotational speed thing* I was incorrect but, I’ll stand tuff about the quality of vinyl thing no matter what!

*I’m playing 'ring around the posie' right now by myself. Wait, wait I feel dizzy, I better sit down now.

And JKent, you’re probably the closest in geographic proximity to me, so you may have to come here first? State your tastes in music and I’ll put together a nice long session for you but, that is subject ultimately to my decision. In fact, we’ll even do a CD vs. vinyl to dispel any questions or doubt.

Beware though, I don’t have any Mel Torme, no Perry Como. no Dino, no Jerry and the Pace Makers, no Tommy James and the Shondells, and no Grateful Dead.

I will stretch a bit here and say O.K. to the ‘Best of Bread’ for one side only.

Most everything else is open to selection, especially if you’re into rock from the last century, providing the record is in good shape and has been washed.

Of course, when it comes to classical music, I have a bevy of choices.

Now, let me get back to the music.

fm

[iso]

In the 80´s I was sure that vinyl is the the right way to go, but CD players have improved quite bit since... recently I have been using Audio Research CD3-mkII CD player that replaced previous Sony CDP XA30ES which I used for many years. Some months ago I compared ARC to Swiss made Ensemble CD-player which was maybe even better but more expensive.

My record players are more modest ones. Currently I am using Ariston RD11S, SME3009 S2 Improved with Stanton 881S which seems to be decent vintage TT. I also have Garrard 301, Thorens TD125 series 1 and 3 pcs ARXB:s, one modified for Rega others in stock condition.

Recently I have interested again in vinyl replay as there are quite many things to do before it will perform as supposed. When using CD, you dont´t have to do too much. Maybe hook line and output leads and level the platform for good performance. When doing vinyl set up, levelled platform is only starting point. You must level subchassis, adjust tonearm geometry on the deck for optimum performance. Adjust tonearm for cartridge used. Find suitable SUT if low output MC is used and so on... quite many things can go wrong... and usually at least thing or two will not be 100% perfect. But when everything is close enough, performance is pretty good too...

I do not think that well made CD is too different to well made LP. They both do have their own shortcommings, but I believe that they both sound good enough for me. One aspect about vinyl has not been discussed too often. I have recently bought some "best ever" late 50´s to early 60´s classical recordings mastered from original masters in Decca and RCA Living Stereo CD-boxes. None of them have fullfilled my expectations. I have some original Decca and RCA LP´s from this era, some of them are not too well respected late 70´s pressings. Even these late 70´s LP´s do outperform these new CD remasters. Only logical conclusion for this is that vinyl is far better storage medium than magnetic tape.

So... I would say that it is safe to listen CD´s also with AR3a... even LP´s may be prefferred sometimes.

Best Regards

Kimmo

[Jeff_C]

Now, let me get back to the music.

fm

And that's what really matters, isn't it...the music.

Whichever source (and other equipment) gives us the greatest pleasure is always going to be a matter of personal preference. I prefer the ease of use of digital music files (flac) stored on a network hard disc drive. No physical contact is needed with such media files. I damaged too many vinyl LPs playing them after I had had a drink. Most of the damaged LPs were dropped, trying too hard to handle them carefully while replacing them in their dust jackets.

Frank, you strike me as someone who likes a drink or two while listening to music. How do you manage such a large collection without alcohol induced damage.

[frankmarsi]

12-30-15

Excuse me as I become defensive:

Gee, not good Jeff_C for saying; “Frank, you strike me as someone who likes a drink or two while listening to music. How do you manage such a large collection without alcohol induced damage.”

I do not. Please delete that before it gives me a bad rep. Thank you.

I’ve only dropped a vinyl disk maybe three times in my life and that’s was because I was multi-tasking with the volume control or the ‘Dust-Bug’, or looking at some beautiful girl’s legs. I treat my records and styli like fine china. Visitors are usually quite amused by my high level of discipline and procedure that I go through. Like I’ve said before, it’s almost like a religious experience for me. I’ve been doing it for over 55 years. On occasion I’ve even amazed myself with my high level of exuberance, or maybe just had a lot of gas?

If anyone cares, my actual personality may be very animated at times, but that’s the extent of it.

On the other hand, I generally don’t behave like a ‘slug’ in the early morning’s dew, that’s for sure.

Often times my real excitement factor is driven by the stereo system and how pleased I am with what I’ve ‘cherry-picked’ over the years. My degree of happiness because of the ‘system’s quality of sound is something that should be experienced by all. I’m that happy about it, maybe I’m too happy? Hold your nose, yes, it is some gas.

What you may be detecting is a different sort of intoxication due to my elevated feelings I get from using my vintage system? Although I am a by-product of the late sixties and early seventies while living in NYC, which may show itself as some sort of attitudinal overtone?

Now living in Jersey, I drive slowly, have a truck as a second vehicle, dress in all cotton, shop a whole lot and have become pretty laid-back.

And being on a good size parcel of land, I have no reservations about turning up the volume to realistic levels when listening intensely. In fact two weeks ago I almost bought a PL Dual 500 amp but decided against it as over-kill because my two PL700 Series 2 are more than enough. OTOH, perhaps it’s never too much power? Not to offend you low volume listeners. Booo- boring!

“Iso” does makes some good points and is using some good equipment, best regards on that note. I find “Decca” to be an interesting company. I’m also thinking about one of their better cartridges.

So, speaking to his point, I find it amazing that there are so much extremely well recorded music on vinyl from the early to mid eighties. In those years, CD was making its debut and vinyl manufacturers must have been on their toes? On the other hand some of my early nineties CDs sound rather dull and unexciting.

I have a good number of vinyl pressings from those years that will put almost anyone’s head into a spin, (no pun intended) with their high level of quality. Such labels as A&M, Philips, Columbia, Telarc, etc. really did a great job of ‘pushing the envelope’ in my estimation.

I’ve read some reviews on the earlier productions of the Bea_les’ boxed set as not being very rewarding at all. In the late ‘60s I played electric bass in a couple of good groups but, hearing on the radio some of the reissues making the sound of the ‘Hofner’ bass and Ringo’s drums as really being ‘over-cooked’.

I still own my original Hofner bass and trust me, it just doesn’t have the ballsy sound of a Fender P bass like these reissues seem to portray. Although I will say Paul’s bass playing was never really well recorded.

As a note, I have experienced a recent vinyl record that has been recorded off of a CD or was originally recorded for a CD pressing and that file then used to make vinyl records with, the results were less than stellar. All of you vinyl listeners should be aware of this and ready to bring those disks back for a refund.

But to put an end to any disagreement, IMO, CD is nice and easy, convenient and fool proof, whereas vinyl does take some effort and, to me the rewards for that effort are so much more gratifying. Besides isn’t it ironic how in some circles the talk is looking towards the demise of CDs, which personally I doubt, but surely the irony is that vinyl has made such a huge come back. Why is that so?

Getting back to “Iso”, I appreciate that you mention some of the equipment you use as most here do not elaborate on the rest of their systems, why? I think it would helpful to us all to know what sounds best with what.

To address “owlsplace”, yes, I did mention Barnes & Fobles vinyl stock here once before as a new source of vinyl.

Though it is certainly nice to see, I don’t think it will last long as most folks simply do not have the playback system or interest. It is amusing though to watch younger people read the backs of the vinyl albums, or even passing younger kids asking their parents what these flat 12X12 inch things are.

On your other mention of 10 inch tape, there is a solo company who is refurbishing used older higher quality tape machines and even have put together a small amount of re-recorded tapes allegedly taken off of ‘original-masters’, however the costs are quite high and way out of my league. I have read that 10 inch tape at 15IPS may actually be the real ultimate playback medium and I can understand that point.

fm

P.S. One huge complaint here, and that is the cost of the newer vinyl being sold. To me it’s going to kill itself with such high prices. You could buy a CD (but why would you)- for about $12-$15 or so, but $24 to $34. for vinyl is countering the whole revitalization.

I’ve learned that 20 or so years ago most vinyl record pressing machines were destroyed due to the ‘new’ discs that will last forever that took over. I’ve read that there are one or more companies who are actually seeking out in forgotten warehouses any pressing machines and their spare parts to rebuild them for sale to bigger companies. Get a load of that Alice.

Anyone have any ‘Gas-X’? Somebody put a fan on, hurry!

[owlsplace]

Frank,

You didn't mention if you have any vinyl made from direct-to-disc recordings ... they were supposed to be the best of the best.

Oh, and as long as we are getting back into the "groove," maybe we can revamp Edison's cylinder recordings -- that would solve the inner/outer speed issue

Roger

[ar_pro]

Good point, Roger.

The Edison cylinders maintain a constant linear velocity - problem solved, just as long as your music is 4 minutes or less.

I've had a bunch of these for years, and they're all about a century old now.

Their packaging was excellent, and they even included liner notes rolled up inside each cylinder.

[frankmarsi]

12-30-15

Just got back from Barbes & Fobles and purchased two new records, Billie Gibbons’ and Chris Isaak’s new releases. The amps are warming up at this time so I’ll continue blabbering.

Yes, “owlsplace” I do have a few direct to disk, that are vinyl disk pressings originally record to a digital medium, then to vinyl. I don’t know anything more about them though.

And correct they are excellent, a couple were actually made in 1979, believe or not.

Another thing is not only does “Edison’s” cylinder/groove invention survive for some collectors (no matter how bad they may sound), but aren’t modern computer hard-drives based on the same information retrieval principals as is the modern CD, and the dreaded vinyl record?

Of course they are.

Regardless of the inner/outer speed issue as another member brought up, the actual fact is that many folk’s playback turntables are not set-up probably or they are using lesser quality styli and lesser tone arms so they may sound distorted towards the end of a record.

Thankfully I don’t experience that problem.

If everyone is such a new-technology specialist here, then why are they using such old AR speakers? I use these old transducers because I believe in them whole heartedly.

However my speakers don’t sound any better while using a digital disc, in fact my speakers sound great while using a old-tech format. I guess it’s a crazy world?

Yeah-rite!

I had a long time friend here last week and we went crazy listening to my music/set-up. He had asked for a song that I didn’t have on vinyl but I did have on CD. So, we enjoyed the music,

and after it finished, he excitedly requested that we go back to the vinyl because he emphatically agreed that the vinyl sounded better.

I own and use two Marantz CD players and although they are not mega-buck models, they, especially the older mid-priced CD63SE and the newer CD5001 have received rave reviews.

If I choose to make my pleasure using CD listening, which I won’t, perhaps I’d save for up a $1,000 or more costly player and buy that.

This site is flooded with ‘tinkers’, toiling with very old speakers but, many seemingly don’t really get into the fun of using vinyl. How does one understand that?

Aside from the inherent high quality of vinyl, what about the ‘tinkering’ with turntables and tone arms and all it takes to set one up probably which personally I find to be great fun.

The deciding which cartridge type to use and with all of the options in choosing the best for one’s needs/desire or simply the upgrading to a better cartridge and enjoying yourself because of the better sound it gives, then thanking yourself for thinking of it.

I’m at a point now where I can tell you which cartridge sounds the best with which record.

Adjusting the VTF, VTA, SRA, the azimuth, the over-hang, using protractors, and the massive selection of music afforded by buying used vinyl. Then, the cleaning of the disk itself, re-sleeving the disk and the outer jacket, the notes regarding the music itself.

For me, along with the listening of great music is the real fun to be had, more so than sanding a cabinet or refoaming a cone, that’s for sure! And even though those things too are part of the fun of using old AR speakers, there is much joy in using a turntable and discovering music that I’ve never enjoyed or heard before. That’s what my used record hunting marathons are all about. In the last several years of collecting records, I have been overjoyed to experience music I didn’t years ago. Now, I have a neurotically huge collection and it’s great fun to pick and chose from such a pile of music.

But, I digress, presently LPs have taken over a lot of the floor space in this house until I get off of my behind and work out some sort of system to contain the huge amounts of records literally taking over.

All right let me go, the amps have been cooking for over an hour now.

One more thing, a stylus actually needs time to warm-up also, about one or two sides usually does it. I bet you didn’t know that? Neither did I until I started surfing the web looking to learn more about cartridges and styli, buying and trying and listening to my cartridges to see if it were true and found out first hand it is true.

fm

[samberger0357]

Love my AR 3's, love my vinyl(over 5000 lp's, hundreds of 45's and 78's, 4 working tables) but love any format as long as the music is good. Do a lot of streaming, and own over 1000 cd's. Was just listening to a cd that a famous 78 collector created for me from his collection. State of the art rips. Nothing else added. It sounds fantastic, and I wouldn't be able to hear this stuff if I didn't have it on his cd.

So in the end it's not the format, but the music. And of course great hardware to listen to it on.

Oh, and hello. Long time lurker and finally able to post. Happy New Year, friends.