Using AR-3a's as main fronts of a surround system.

[bassment142]

Alright, so I love that with the AR-3a's I don't need to use a subwoofer. I dont need sub-30hz rumbles waking the kids at night.

However, I was told that my YAMAHA home theater receiver may not be so good with the 3a's due to the whole 4ohm thing.

Alright, so now here was the problem, how can I use a designated power amp that can handle the load and still have surround sound?

Taking the advice of a previous thread helped me out.

I am now using the pre-outs off the back of the YAMAHA to the inputs of the Audiosource Amp Two.

Taking it a step further, I am also using a Kenwood Basic preamp with the YAMAHA/Audiosource system so that when I choose to hook up turntables and my phone (FLAC) I can have some tone controls. I love the loudness knob and having quick access to balance bass and treble.

So last night was my first go. I could tell immediatly that the audiosource had some more deep bass punch... or at least the ability to make the ARs go deep.

The only odd thing I noticed was that the watt metters on the audiosource were barely hitting the 1 watt at pretty decent volumes.

Reading threads about powering 3a's had me thinking these things would be taking 50 watts for normal music listening. Are these watt meters accurate? I dont think I will ever attempt to listen to these old speakers at a LOUD level, where the bass hits your chest.. but unless I am missing something.. these are pretty efficient speakers.

Well anyways, thanks for reading my story.

[dxho]

Your experience matches mine. I'm listening now, and a

comfortable background/listening level peaks at about

.06 or .07 watts on the Onkyo M504 meters.

[genek]

Compare to most of the speakers being made today, the AR-3a is the opposite of efficient, but clean power is pretty cheap today compared to when the speakers were made, so really, who cares?

[oldarnut]

I do like the extreme lows with my home theater system. I use Infinity Quantum II's in the front, ARLST2's for the surrounds and AR3a's for the rear speakers. The Quantum II's are an acoustic suspension design that goes well below 30 hz. These are all driven by a Pioneer VSX 1014TX receiver. I've never had a problem with the mixture of 8 ohm and 4 ohm speakers driven by that receiver.

To supplement the lows, I use a pair of 15" Dayton IB15 infinite baffle woofers installed in the floor at the front of the listening area. These are driven by a Hafler DH500 power amplifier from the Sub pre-outs on the Pioneer receiver. I've not been able to eliminate all the floor/wall rattles when cranking the system to high levels, but haven't given up. These have substantial output at 20 hz.

The LST2's are ideal for side surround speakers because of the three angles that the tweeters are aimed. A nagging problem has been the mid and tweeter pots on the AR3a's. They are so intermittent that the slightest bump or touch of the potentiometer knob leaves the mid or tweeter not working. Sometimes they just stop working on their own. Wiggling the knob sometimes takes several minutes before connection can be made. I really need to fix these pots to eliminate the nuisance.

[mocmoon]

Hi oldarnut,

I'm building an AR-based HT system, and also find that the design of the LST/MST works very well as surround speakers. I use a pair of LST as surrounds, and MST as front wide. Main speakers are AR9.

I wonder what you are using for center? Mine is a pair of AR4, but I find that the 4s seem to lack of mid-high, hence the dialogues become muddy and often difficult to hear.

On the AR3a pots issue, I would suggest you to bypass the pots with a resitor set to the level that you often use most.

[DavidDru]

I have not considered using AR speakers in my home theater. Interesting. Does seem like the MST and LST would make sense on the sides. Maybe a single as the center too. (actually I would probably go with something entirely different and modern for the center ch) not sure you would even need something as beefy as a 3 or 3a in the back. Atmos with AR speakers. Sweet!

If I were to try this, I would probably go with separates so I could use amps best suited for the application. Plus, the amps don't really age out the way the processors do as the technology continues to change. You can pick up some really good amps for the application for fairly cheap and then go with something special for the front/mains so when you turn it over to 2channel, you still have that aspect. Just my shot at it.

[Steve F]

To all my very valued compatriots on the CSP Forum—

I say this with the utmost respect and admiration for all you do—your great restorative work, your collective knowledge and experience, your enthusiasm, friendliness and open-mindedness.

But……..I must say that the idea of using Classic AR speakers in a home theater system is nuts! Beyond nuts.

They weren’t designed for that kind of use, not at all. In the 1960’s and ‘70’s, the predominant source material was analog LP, with a relatively restricted dynamic range. Musical peaks were only around 15-20dB higher than average program levels. Amplifiers/receivers were generally around 50-100 watts per channel RMS (except for the occasional Phase Linear or Crown) and in-home max SPLs were around 100dB.

Today’s digital theater source material has dynamic range that can easily be double or triple what analog material was in 1972. Low-frequency content, in particular, is vastly deeper and more demanding than it was previously. THX Reference Level—for the home!—is 105dB, and that’s just average level, not peak.

Do the math. For every 3dB increase in SPL, you have to double the power. If your 3a needed 10 watts to reach 92dB 10 feet away at your listening chair, then to reach an instantaneous 110dB digital movie peak will require…..640 watts!

Far be it from me to tell you how to treat and care for your irreplaceable 1971-era AR-3a or AR-2ax, but I will never subject them to that kind of torture. How many ¾-inch NOS tweeters are out there?

In my many decades in the speaker biz, I worked at Bose, Boston Acoustics and Atlantic Technology. BA and AT make a lot of really great, modern, HT speakers. Ferro-fluid cooled tweeters. Powered subwoofers designed with digital soundtracks in mind. I have a perfectly excellent home theater system with BA and AT speakers.

My priceless, impeccably-restored 3a’s are in a 2-channel music-only system, powered by an 80 WPC integrated amplifier. I never play them beyond moderately loud. I want them to last forever, so I treat them accordingly. I can’t imagine doing something crazy like blowing an irreplaceable, original ¾-inch hard black paper dome tweeter on a 30dB peak from an exploding Death Star.

To each his own, but my Classic ARs are never going to be mistreated and punished with digital sound effects from trashy modern movies.

Steve F.

[ra.ra]

Well stated, Steve, particularly regarding dynamic range of digital source material and the very real possibility of driver damage. Not unlike yourself, I almost always use my vintage AR's at low-to-moderate volume levels; feed them from simple analog sources; and after 45 years of AR speaker ownership, I have yet to "blow" a single driver for any reason whatsoever.

But then again, I never have understood the fascination with owning a multi-multi-channel home theater system. If and when I might desire that type of experience, I'll gladly shell out the $12 or whatever a couple times a year for a ticket at the local multiplex.

[JKent]

. . . I almost always use my vintage AR's at low-to-moderate volume levels; feed them from simple analog sources; and after 45 years of AR speaker ownership, I have yet to "blow" a single driver for any reason whatsoever.

But then again, I never have understood the fascination with owning a multi-multi-channel home theater system. . . .

chacun à son goût

​Like you, I've had AR (and other New England) speakers for 45 years and have never blown anything. But like many people I enjoy the surround-sound home theater experience in the comfort of my own home. So while my "vintage" system is a simple stereo set-up with AR-3a speakers augmented by Microstatic super-tweeters, my living room has 12 speakers for glorious sound when I watch Star Wars. No ARs right now, but the main fronts are irreplaceable Cizek KA-1s. The rears are also Cizek (HTAs) and the various surrounds are either 1980s Cambridge Soundworks or modified mini speakers. I do use a sub to give the main speakers a break.

Steve, I hear what you're saying but I just like using decades-old speakers with a modern 9.2 channel A/V receiver. So far, so good.

-Kent

[genek]

I find the wider dynamic range of most movies renders them unlistenable in a home environment. I often can barely make out dialog, but the crescendos of music and sound FX are uncomfortably loud. Fortunately, this can be fixed by selecting compressed dynamic range, aka night mode, on the HT preamp. The nice thing about it is, since it's part of the Dolby Surround decoder anything not Dolby Surround encoded, i.e., analog music, is passed through unaffected, so I just leave it on all the time.

My preamp is set to send the HT LFE channel to a subwoofer, but there isn't one there. That prevents all the low frequency stuff that I really don't want to hear anyway from being sent to the main channel speakers.

[ra.ra]

Kent, your French is much better than mine - - I had to look that one up!

I know this kind of set-up is constructed all the time, but I guess maybe this sentiment could be softened to suggest "travel at your own risk" or "proceed with caution". Attempting to re-create a theater level SPL might indeed be foolhardy with the types of peaks involved, but perhaps this type of installation merely highlights situations where prudent speaker fusing becomes a very wise insurance investment.

And to genek's comments, my limited listening experience with HT is pretty much the same as his, but I have to add that I usually feel the same way about the audio quality at the cineplex. FX are too loud and too boomy, and crucial dialog becomes severely compromised.

[DavidDru]

Giving this idea more thought, I am starting to think the only channel I would use AR's in would be the front mains. Using a speaker as special as the LST or MST would seem a bit of overkill. There are better options for the sides and rears as well as the dialogue oriented center channel. Subs are subs and are best suited for the rumble bumble of movies.

AR9's on the front would be something though.

[bassment142]

Steve, I would never "push" my old AR's. I am terrified to even enjoy them at low volumes. All the glue that holds things things together is just begging to be ripped apart.

I am talking low to mid-low volumes in a basement after the kids go to bed.

If I was going to WOW my friends and neighbors with a LOUD movie home theater setup I would certainly get towers and subwoofers meant to do the job.

[Mafia1976]

I am using a yamaha rxv2600 with ar9 mains, ar7 rears & cs 25 Ho centre which I imported from the US. I think it sounds great although the 9's are a bit large for my 13' by 13' lounge. Movies rock while in pure direct mode dire straits sound amazing.

[DavidR]

To all my very valued compatriots on the CSP Forum—

I say this with the utmost respect and admiration for all you do—your great restorative work, your collective knowledge and experience, your enthusiasm, friendliness and open-mindedness.

But……..I must say that the idea of using Classic AR speakers in a home theater system is nuts! Beyond nuts.

They weren’t designed for that kind of use, not at all. In the 1960’s and ‘70’s, the predominant source material was analog LP, with a relatively restricted dynamic range. Musical peaks were only around 15-20dB higher than average program levels. Amplifiers/receivers were generally around 50-100 watts per channel RMS (except for the occasional Phase Linear or Crown) and in-home max SPLs were around 100dB.

Today’s digital theater source material has dynamic range that can easily be double or triple what analog material was in 1972. Low-frequency content, in particular, is vastly deeper and more demanding than it was previously. THX Reference Level—for the home!—is 105dB, and that’s just average level, not peak.

Do the math. For every 3dB increase in SPL, you have to double the power. If your 3a needed 10 watts to reach 92dB 10 feet away at your listening chair, then to reach an instantaneous 110dB digital movie peak will require…..640 watts!

Far be it from me to tell you how to treat and care for your irreplaceable 1971-era AR-3a or AR-2ax, but I will never subject them to that kind of torture. How many ¾-inch NOS tweeters are out there?

In my many decades in the speaker biz, I worked at Bose, Boston Acoustics and Atlantic Technology. BA and AT make a lot of really great, modern, HT speakers. Ferro-fluid cooled tweeters. Powered subwoofers designed with digital soundtracks in mind. I have a perfectly excellent home theater system with BA and AT speakers.

My priceless, impeccably-restored 3a’s are in a 2-channel music-only system, powered by an 80 WPC integrated amplifier. I never play them beyond moderately loud. I want them to last forever, so I treat them accordingly. I can’t imagine doing something crazy like blowing an irreplaceable, original ¾-inch hard black paper dome tweeter on a 30dB peak from an exploding Death Star.

To each his own, but my Classic ARs are never going to be mistreated and punished with digital sound effects from trashy modern movies.

Steve F.

Since my SpeakerCraft CS3 crapped out I only have the Bose 901's running for my simple HT system. I have been entertaining the idea of using my AR91's as front speakers. Would this be the same scenario as the older AR Classics?

[JKent]

Since my SpeakerCraft CS3 crapped out I only have the Bose 901's running for my simple HT system. I have been entertaining the idea of using my AR91's as front speakers. Would this be the same scenario as the older AR Classics?

IMHO those would be great. Wish I could use mine for that purpose but they won't fit in my living room so, like yours, they are currently idle. A shame. The mids and tweets are ferro-fluid-cooled and I think they should be pretty rugged. They're newer than the 3a and were designed when CDs, with their potential for greater dynamic range, were the newest thing.

YMMV.

-Kent

[DavidR]

Thanks Kent. I swap them out with the 90s every now and then. They sound nice. The tweets and mids have better clarity and detail because of the poly caps but the 90s bass and lower mid can't be beat. I hope to do the xovers in the 90s this winter.

[Aadams]

Using AR3as as part of a surround system seems like an unnecessary risk of an a not very replaceable component. Movie soundtracks are just dialogue with sound effects. Even when you shut your eyes and imagine you are listening to music the mix is usually bad. There are a huge number of sufficiently good easily replaceable speakers for the job.

Just my opinion.

Adams

[oldarnut]

Some of the responses to this subject are really surprising. The source sound quality available to day compared to what was available when the first AR speakers were built is like night and day. Whether it's live TV, CD's, DVD's, or modern vinyl, what I hear out of my AR speakers is fantastic compared to what we strived for in the 1960's!

In some ways, the suggestion that we don't listen to these speakers as they were built to deliver reminds me of the old car hobby. Those car collectors that restore or buy restored cars and park them or put them in a museum have not even a fraction of the pleasure that we who drive our old cars get. My '64 GTO is a Concours Gold winner, but driven to every show I participate in and often for pleasure in summer months.

Many of you must remember the pains we went through when solid state amplifiers first appeared. Sound was OK, but the toll they took on our AR mid and high frequency drivers was terrible. I was ordering tweeters & mids several times a year when they were available at a very nominal cost from AR. The worst was a Phase Linear 400 I tried out to drive my four AR3a's. All of this experience was with vinyl records and my AR turntable in the '60's.

Today, with my system integrated with DVD, CD, TV, Laserdisc player, FM, and MP3 player, the AR and Infinity vintage speakers have served well. The only source that is not up to the par of vinyl records is MP3 with its limited dynamic range and lack of high frequencies. The only glitch is the AR tweeter/mid pots being very touchy. The frequency curve switches on the ARLST2's never act up. Sound quality from some TV programs is fantastic. Sound quality from some DVD's is also fantastic--movies and concerts. Amplifier is a Pioneer VSX-1014 with a Hafler DH500 driving 15" IB subs in the floor. I haven't blown a driver for many years, in spite of some loud sessions now and then.

I never expected to read on this board that we should use our old AR speakers with caution!

[Jeff_C]

For those of you lucky enough to have enough matching vintage speakers to make up a HT system, I would advise caution with the volume control. For most people here in the UK this is a necessity anyway because of neighbours in adjacent semi-detached properties. My HT system is just a 5.0 speaker arrangement set up in a normal domestic living room.

It is worth noting that the more speakers in the HT system, the more the sound tends to get shared around, so the load on any one individual speaker is not that great unless you really want to re-create the experience of your local cinema.

My speakers are 4 x Mission 751, with a Mission 75C centre channel (22 years old). The centre channel speaker is usually the most important as it handles most of the dialogue.

I have no sub-woofer purely because I want to stay on good terms with my neighbours. I listen loud enough such that dialogue is clear (not always the case in the cinema), and the sound effects, when present, are a thrill but not necessarily realistically loud. So if I had enough vintage AR speakers I would not be too concerned about using them in a HT system if they are used the same way my current speakers are used. I would find it difficult though to source a useful matching centre channel vintage speaker.

[genek]

I have 3a's as fronts, my old 2ax's as rears (overkill, but it's what I had around the house when I set this up) and an 80s era mini 1ms as the center channel (had to put a bit of fiberglass wrap in front of the tweeter to match the highs to the classic era speakers). No sub, though the pre thinks there is one so no LFE goes to the other speakers.

I use pretty much the same levels for movies as I do for music (if I can't hear someone else in the room talking, it's too damned loud). I also have compressed or "night mode" engaged so that anything Dolby Surround (movies) gets its audio compressed to a more listenable dynamic range. This has been my HT for the past eight years, and so far nothing has gone wrong.

I also have enough drivers in my spares box to replace anything that ever does blow or just crumble with age. If I make it to 10 years without having to use any of them I may break out the woodworking tools, build a pair of cabinets and put together another pair of speakers.

[ar_pro]

This topic got me to thinking: I wonder how many AR drivers were lost to dropped tonearms, or power on/off transient "thumps" in the early days of the super-amps (Crown, Phase, Dynaco, etc.)?

[bassment142]

The AR-3a's are working great with my Yamaha HTR-5760. At low volumes there is lots of nice sound effect bass and the amp barely gets warm.

[genek]

Have never heard any accounts of that happening. Most reports I've heard of AR driver failures when new seem to have resulted from sustained overdriving, especially on lower powered amps that went into clipping. .

This topic got me to thinking: I wonder how many AR drivers were lost to dropped tonearms, or power on/off transient "thumps" in the early days of the super-amps (Crown, Phase, Dynaco, etc.)?

[oldarnut]

I agree with genek. I've never heard of a woofer failing in an AR speaker system except for rotting of the surround foam. The most common failures for me were the mids in my AR3's. AR sent AR3a mids as replacements along with an inductor and instructions to modify the crossover curve for the replacement midrange. I never used any of those parts--just installed the new midranges.