Allison IC-20'S (in original boxes for 20 years!)

[tysontom]

Bill,

How did I originally miss this story? That is fascinating, and to think you chanced upon the very first pair! I'm pretty sure that I have heard your very IC20s, because they were probably used at the Chicago CES by Roy and Sumner when they were introduced. I might even have a photograph somewhere. I distinctly remember hearing "Bach on Wood," an analog CD played on them, and I was amazed at the sound. The price (despite being able to get them at probably half-off) was high at the time, and I had just purchased another set of speakers (ADS L-1590s), not to mention being somewhat "speaker poor." That was the only reason that I did not purchase a pair of IC20s.

Obviously, you had to travel somewhere to pick them up, no?

--Tom

[newandold]

Bill,

How did I originally miss this story? That is fascinating, and to think you chanced upon the very first pair! I'm pretty sure that I have heard your very IC20s, because they were probably used at the Chicago CES by Roy and Sumner when they were introduced. I might even have a photograph somewhere. I distinctly remember hearing "Bach on Wood," an analog CD played on them, and I was amazed at the sound. The price (despite being able to get them at probably half-off) was high at the time, and I had just purchased another set of speakers (ADS L-1590s), not to mention being somewhat "speaker poor." That was the only reason that I did not purchase a pair of IC20s.

Obviously, you had to travel somewhere to pick them up, no?

--Tom

Tom,

That thought had come to mind also, that this pair MAY have been used for demo purposes.

I would love to see pictures of that show, should you ever come across them. I had a few exchanges with Sumner on the forum, but I don't recall what was talked about.

By the way, Roy is aware that I have them, and is happy knowing that I will keep them in good shape.

Yes, I needed to travel a bit. Lucky me that I live in NY and the speakers were in Massachusetts, 4 and half hours away roughly.

I have all the original packing material with those huge foam blocks and did not want to travel without that, which meant rental truck (and an new hand truck).

Bill

[tysontom]

Tom,

That thought had come to mind also, that this pair MAY have been used for demo purposes.

I would love to see pictures of that show, should you ever come across them. I had a few exchanges with Sumner on the forum, but I don't recall what was talked about.

By the way, Roy is aware that I have them, and is happy knowing that I will keep them in good shape.

Yes, I needed to travel a bit. Lucky me that I live in NY and the speakers were in Massachusetts, 4 and half hours away roughly.

I have all the original packing material with those huge foam blocks and did not want to travel without that, which meant rental truck (and an new hand truck).

Bill

Bill,

I will definitely look for those pictures taken at the Chicago CES. I'm not positive I took pictures of the IC20s, but I'm pretty sure I probably did. I usually photographed everything of interest (and continue to do so to this day with digital imaging).

The key word in your message above is "hand truck." In this business, you can't be without one when it comes to moving these big things around. Well, in any event, those IC20s are in great hands now, and I know you are happy with them! Did you end up refoaming the woofers?

--Tom

[newandold]

Bill,

I will definitely look for those pictures taken at the Chicago CES. I'm not positive I took pictures of the IC20s, but I'm pretty sure I probably did. I usually photographed everything of interest (and continue to do so to this day with digital imaging).

The key word in your message above is "hand truck." In this business, you can't be without one when it comes to moving these big things around. Well, in any event, those IC20s are in great hands now, and I know you are happy with them! Did you end up refoaming the woofers?

--Tom

Thank you Tom!

But don't go crazy looking for them. I would love to have those for the "archives".

Yeah, the hand truck. I bought a new one for the trip with the little soft wheels. I would have been screwed without that.

The woofers in this pair of IC's are the ones I talked about earlier that received BOTH spiders and surronds.

In addition, I had the voice coils re-aligned on (3) of the midrange drivers.

I added a few more shots of the restoration process.

Bill

[tysontom]

Bill,

Those are great images of your IC20 restoration project! The woofers on the dining-room table look like preparation for a Thanksgiving dinner or something! Is the woofer/voice coil picture one of the IC20 woofers with replaced spider and surround? Who did that work?

I'll look for those Chicago CES pictures. I have a lot of print folders to search, so it will probably take awhile.

Thanks!

--Tom

[newandold]

Bill,

Those are great images of your IC20 restoration project! The woofers on the dining-room table look like preparation for a Thanksgiving dinner or something! Is the woofer/voice coil picture one of the IC20 woofers with replaced spider and surround? Who did that work?

I'll look for those Chicago CES pictures. I have a lot of print folders to search, so it will probably take awhile.

Thanks!

--Tom

Hi Tom,

No one who has seen those restored woofer photos ever asked me about the work.....only what was served with them for dinner (well maybe not)! lol.

Happened to be, the table was a convenient place to re-assemble the reverse tube setup for the woofers so I ended up also taking the pictures in there.

The woofer mechanical restoration was done by Bill Legall of Miller Sound. Bill Does beautiful work and even did some woofers for Roy not long ago.

The baskets had some corrosion that needed to be cleaned up to attach the new spiders. The cone/voice coils are in new condition and that all went back in, of course with the new surrounds.

Bill

[tysontom]

Hi Tom,

No one who has seen those restored woofer photos ever asked me about the work.....only what was served with them for dinner (well maybe not)! lol.

Happened to be, the table was a convenient place to re-assemble the reverse tube setup for the woofers so I ended up also taking the pictures in there.

The woofer mechanical restoration was done by Bill Legall of Miller Sound. Bill Does beautiful work and even did some woofers for Roy not long ago.

The baskets had some corrosion that needed to be cleaned up to attach the new spiders. The cone/voice coils are in new condition and that all went back in, of course with the new surrounds.

Bill

Bill,

Hope you didn't spread any "woofer germs" on the dining-room table. From afar, someone might think you had some special black-glass (onyx, perhaps) serving dishes. It might surprise visitors if some food object were placed on those cones, and you applied a quick, transient pulse to the woofers, sending that "something" into the air -- letting one's imagination run wild, of course.

It reminds me of my youth. When I was in school as a young boy (I went off to school for a few years in my early youth), a group of us at one of the dinner tables (before the headmaster arrived) put small pats of butter on the handle-end of a fork and pounded the butter up into the air -- with the hopes of having it stick to the ceiling. The ceiling in this old building was at least fifteen feet up, and getting the butter up there took enormous fist power. As the heat built up in the building, the butter would slowly melt, and small droplets would sometimes land on the table or even on the headmaster's head -- our mischievous intention. This practice (along with spitballs in study hall) stopped pretty quickly after that, however, and since this school had a strict honor system (caught lying, stealing or cheating you would be dismissed), several of us got into big trouble. None of this is related to the Allison IC20 woofers, of course!

--Tom

[newandold]

Bill,

Hope you didn't spread any "woofer germs" on the dining-room table. From afar, someone might think you had some special black-glass (onyx, perhaps) serving dishes. It might surprise visitors if some food object were placed on those cones, and you applied a quick, transient pulse to the woofers, sending that "something" into the air -- letting one's imagination run wild, of course.

It reminds me of my youth. When I was in school as a young boy (I went off to school for a few years in my early youth), a group of us at one of the dinner tables (before the headmaster arrived) put small pats of butter on the handle-end of a fork and pounded the butter up into the air -- with the hopes of having it stick to the ceiling. The ceiling in this old building was at least fifteen feet up, and getting the butter up there took enormous fist power. As the heat built up in the building, the butter would slowly melt, and small droplets would sometimes land on the table or even on the headmaster's head -- our mischievous intention. This practice (along with spitballs in study hall) stopped pretty quickly after that, however, and since this school had a strict honor system (caught lying, stealing or cheating you would be dismissed), several of us got into big trouble. None of this is related to the Allison IC20 woofers, of course!

--Tom

Well, I also have a food stuck to the ceiling story, but mine was quite accidental......

Many years ago, I had put a bunch of eggs on the stovetop one night to make hard boiled and totally forgot about them.

At about 4am, my wife and I awoke to the most horrific, nauseating smell and THEN, I remembered. I leaped from bed and ran to the kitchen.

There was a smoking black pan on the stove top, and that was it. The eggs were nowhere to be found, until I happened to look up, and saw pieces of egg, shell and such stuck to the ceiling.

It was nasty......Bill

[tysontom]

Well, I also have a food stuck to the ceiling story, but mine was quite accidental......

Many years ago, I had put a bunch of eggs on the stovetop one night to make hard boiled and totally forgot about them.

At about 4am, my wife and I awoke to the most horrific, nauseating smell and THEN, I remembered. I leaped from bed and ran to the kitchen.

There was a smoking black pan on the stove top, and that was it. The eggs were nowhere to be found, until I happened to look up, and saw pieces of egg, shell and such stuck to the ceiling.

It was nasty......Bill

Bill,

Your egg story reminds me of a time when our daughter was an infant, my wife began sterilizing some milk-bottle nipples on the stove by boiling them in water with the burner set to "high." Meanwhile, before the water came to a boil, our daughter awoke early from her nap and for some reason, my wife decided to quickly visit a best friend a couple blocks away. Off the two of them went, and suddenly at the friend's house, my wife realized what she had done. By this time, all three headed to our house to find smoke pouring out of the kitchen and the strong smell of burning latex. The nipples were completely scorched, and the pot and lid were heavily warped. I was out of town traveling at the time, so I missed all the excitement!

My wife then called the fire department and told them that it was a minor thing, but asked if someone come out due to the latex smoke in the kitchen? It was not a 3-alarm fire or anything—just send someone out to check. Of course, a large fire engine arrived with sirens and flashing lights. They put fans in the house to clear out the smoke.

—Tom Tyson

[DavidDru]

Well this was a fantastic read guys! Welcome Bill and welcome back Howard! good stuff all. Love the history that some f you can provide for the rest of us.

I have A1's. How much larger are the IC20?

[newandold]

Well this was a fantastic read guys! Welcome Bill and welcome back Howard! good stuff all. Love the history that some f you can provide for the rest of us.

I have A1's. How much larger are the IC20?

Hello David,

The IC-20 stands at 48x21x12, with an internal cabinet volume of 6000 cubic inches.

The A1's dimensions are 40x19x10 3/4 with an internal volume of 2550 cubic inches.

I loved those A1's and would still own them if the chance to grab the IC's had not come up.

Thanks for the welcome.

Bill

[newandold]

It’s hard for me to believe that already, it’s been 6 and a half years since I parked the IC 20’s In my listening space.

All is working just as it should.

 

Bill

[mikezohsix]

Hi Bill -

Think I've contacted you before about your IC20's.  The idea of owning something like them has never let go since the day I got my new-to-me A:1's working correctly.  Short story on them, they turned up in CL, about 3 hours from my house, but not too far from my dad, so made a trip to pick them up.  Got them home, and was very disappointed in the sound, just no life.  A friend of mine at work, also active here, Teknofossil, had the schematic.  Turned out most of the drivers were not wired correctly, so the "pairs" were fighting each other rather than work together.  Fixed the wiring, and love at first listen - they're playing Cat Stevens as I type this!

I retired last week, and am looking for projects.  Over the last 18 months or so I collected some A:1 tweeters and was given four mids and some common A:1 to IC20 cross over components (again by Teknofossil - thanks Tom!) with the idea that I'd build "tops" for my A:1's that would mimic the IC20, with a new cross over of course.  This would be a quick and reversible path to at least get a feel for whether I'd want to build IC20 cabinets.

So with all that said, would you provide the center to center distance of the MTTM array from you speakers?

This will give me the cabinet dimensions for my "tops", to start my project.

Many thanks,

Mike

[newandold]

5 hours ago, mikezohsix said:

Hi Bill -

Think I've contacted you before about your IC20's.  The idea of owning something like them has never let go since the day I got my new-to-me A:1's working correctly.  Short story on them, they turned up in CL, about 3 hours from my house, but not too far from my dad, so made a trip to pick them up.  Got them home, and was very disappointed in the sound, just no life.  A friend of mine at work, also active here, Teknofossil, had the schematic.  Turned out most of the drivers were not wired correctly, so the "pairs" were fighting each other rather than work together.  Fixed the wiring, and love at first listen - they're playing Cat Stevens as I type this!

I retired last week, and am looking for projects.  Over the last 18 months or so I collected some A:1 tweeters and was given four mids and some common A:1 to IC20 cross over components (again by Teknofossil - thanks Tom!) with the idea that I'd build "tops" for my A:1's that would mimic the IC20, with a new cross over of course.  This would be a quick and reversible path to at least get a feel for whether I'd want to build IC20 cabinets.

So with all that said, would you provide the center to center distance of the MTTM array from you speakers?

This will give me the cabinet dimensions for my "tops", to start my project.

Many thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike,

 I’m sure I can dig out the dimensions on the cabinets though your specific request leaves me somewhat confused.

 I need to throw some water on your ambitious idea and don’t take it to heart, but at this point in time no one could possibly replicate IC20’s...no not even close, for many reasons.

Not the least of which are the woofers and the reverse tube assemblies, both totally unique to that loudspeaker.

For 35 years I (very happily) drove the Allison:One.

 If you whip a pair of Those puppies into top shape, you’ll be as close, these days as you can get.

 

Bill

 

[mikezohsix]

22 hours ago, newandold said:

Hi Mike,

 I’m sure I can dig out the dimensions on the cabinets though your specific request leaves me somewhat confused.

 I need to throw some water on your ambitious idea and don’t take it to heart, but at this point in time no one could possibly replicate IC20’s...no not even close, for many reasons.

Not the least of which are the woofers and the reverse tube assemblies, both totally unique to that loudspeaker.

For 35 years I (very happily) drove the Allison:One.

 If you whip a pair of Those puppies into top shape, you’ll be as close, these days as you can get.

 

Bill

 

I understand I will not have the push pull woofers, and will not have "real" IC20's, but I'll be closer to them then I currently am with my refreshed A:1's.  I have considered the push pull, and could print the reverse woofer tube, which I may very well do if I decide to build IC20 replica cabinets.  I'm not there yet, this is an interim experiment, that may never go any further.

I've played with stacking speakers, running multiples, and have always found the results interesting.  You gain some things and lose other things.  One of my other plans is to build a pair of either a 16 or 25 driver linear array.  More drivers seem to mean more music.  Roger Russell's, of McIntosh speaker fame in the same time frame as Roy Allison, last project was the IDS-25 array.  Look it up, it's got quite a following, and I may not be remembering correctly, but I think RA was experimenting with them also.

Guess where I'm going with all this is I'd like to "correctly" add more drivers to the A:1.  And by correctly, I mean use the original drivers (have them), and build the IC20 cross over - which I will do.  To house the added four drivers to my "tops", I had first thought about cutting up a set of empty A:1 cabinets my son has, essentially lop the top off, flip it over, and put new top on it, and put it on top of my A:1.  I was persuaded not to sacrifice those cabinets, so will build new.  So now I'm committed to building new top cabinets, so really just want to see if RA kept the mid to tweet spacing the same as the A:1.

 I may even build the switchable cross over, haven't decided yet, but if I do, it won't be remotely operated.  So, short of the push pull, and the cabinet volume, I'll be as close as can be.  Roy is not building these anymore, and as we all know, they're extremely rare, so how would one get close? - I think the path I'm on is pretty solid.

[newandold]

17 hours ago, mikezohsix said:

I understand I will not have the push pull woofers, and will not have "real" IC20's, but I'll be closer to them then I currently am with my refreshed A:1's.  I have considered the push pull, and could print the reverse woofer tube, which I may very well do if I decide to build IC20 replica cabinets.  I'm not there yet, this is an interim experiment, that may never go any further.

I've played with stacking speakers, running multiples, and have always found the results interesting.  You gain some things and lose other things.  One of my other plans is to build a pair of either a 16 or 25 driver linear array.  More drivers seem to mean more music.  Roger Russell's, of McIntosh speaker fame in the same time frame as Roy Allison, last project was the IDS-25 array.  Look it up, it's got quite a following, and I may not be remembering correctly, but I think RA was experimenting with them also.

Guess where I'm going with all this is I'd like to "correctly" add more drivers to the A:1.  And by correctly, I mean use the original drivers (have them), and build the IC20 cross over - which I will do.  To house the added four drivers to my "tops", I had first thought about cutting up a set of empty A:1 cabinets my son has, essentially lop the top off, flip it over, and put new top on it, and put it on top of my A:1.  I was persuaded not to sacrifice those cabinets, so will build new.  So now I'm committed to building new top cabinets, so really just want to see if RA kept the mid to tweet spacing the same as the A:1.

 I may even build the switchable cross over, haven't decided yet, but if I do, it won't be remotely operated.  So, short of the push pull, and the cabinet volume, I'll be as close as can be.  Roy is not building these anymore, and as we all know, they're extremely rare, so how would one get close? - I think the path I'm on is pretty solid.

The way I added drivers to the Allison One was to jump to multi channel audio video, with them, starting all the way back in 2000.

That brought the driver count up from 12 to 20 plus the Subwoofer, and that brought the count to 21.

Adding the Subwoofer with an 80hz. Crossover point was the first most dramatic thing I ever did with those systems.

 I had a blast revisiting my collection of music with that integration.

Its great that I got lucky later on with a pair of IC’s, but their impact was reduced in the overall system.

 

Bill

[newandold]

On 2/20/2019 at 11:09 AM, mikezohsix said:

Hi Bill -

Think I've contacted you before about your IC20's.  The idea of owning something like them has never let go since the day I got my new-to-me A:1's working correctly.  Short story on them, they turned up in CL, about 3 hours from my house, but not too far from my dad, so made a trip to pick them up.  Got them home, and was very disappointed in the sound, just no life.  A friend of mine at work, also active here, Teknofossil, had the schematic.  Turned out most of the drivers were not wired correctly, so the "pairs" were fighting each other rather than work together.  Fixed the wiring, and love at first listen - they're playing Cat Stevens as I type this!

I retired last week, and am looking for projects.  Over the last 18 months or so I collected some A:1 tweeters and was given four mids and some common A:1 to IC20 cross over components (again by Teknofossil - thanks Tom!) with the idea that I'd build "tops" for my A:1's that would mimic the IC20, with a new cross over of course.  This would be a quick and reversible path to at least get a feel for whether I'd want to build IC20 cabinets.

So with all that said, would you provide the center to center distance of the MTTM array from you speakers?

This will give me the cabinet dimensions for my "tops", to start my project.

Many thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike,

Curious, did you ever pursue this?

 

Bill

[newandold]

_

[newandold]

On 2/21/2019 at 3:31 PM, mikezohsix said:

I understand I will not have the push pull woofers, and will not have "real" IC20's, but I'll be closer to them then I currently am with my refreshed A:1's.  I have considered the push pull, and could print the reverse woofer tube, which I may very well do if I decide to build IC20 replica cabinets.  I'm not there yet, this is an interim experiment, that may never go any further.

I've played with stacking speakers, running multiples, and have always found the results interesting.  You gain some things and lose other things.  One of my other plans is to build a pair of either a 16 or 25 driver linear array.  More drivers seem to mean more music.  Roger Russell's, of McIntosh speaker fame in the same time frame as Roy Allison, last project was the IDS-25 array.  Look it up, it's got quite a following, and I may not be remembering correctly, but I think RA was experimenting with them also.

Guess where I'm going with all this is I'd like to "correctly" add more drivers to the A:1.  And by correctly, I mean use the original drivers (have them), and build the IC20 cross over - which I will do.  To house the added four drivers to my "tops", I had first thought about cutting up a set of empty A:1 cabinets my son has, essentially lop the top off, flip it over, and put new top on it, and put it on top of my A:1.  I was persuaded not to sacrifice those cabinets, so will build new.  So now I'm committed to building new top cabinets, so really just want to see if RA kept the mid to tweet spacing the same as the A:1.

 I may even build the switchable cross over, haven't decided yet, but if I do, it won't be remotely operated.  So, short of the push pull, and the cabinet volume, I'll be as close as can be.  Roy is not building these anymore, and as we all know, they're extremely rare, so how would one get close? - I think the path I'm on is pretty solid.

Two years later (as I knew full well) nothing ever came of this.

It’s a noble thought.....but unobtainable, though a few have kicked the idea around.

Bill

[newandold]

On 2/21/2019 at 3:31 PM, mikezohsix said:

I understand I will not have the push pull woofers, and will not have "real" IC20's, but I'll be closer to them then I currently am with my refreshed A:1's.  I have considered the push pull, and could print the reverse woofer tube, which I may very well do if I decide to build IC20 replica cabinets.  I'm not there yet, this is an interim experiment, that may never go any further.

I've played with stacking speakers, running multiples, and have always found the results interesting.  You gain some things and lose other things.  One of my other plans is to build a pair of either a 16 or 25 driver linear array.  More drivers seem to mean more music.  Roger Russell's, of McIntosh speaker fame in the same time frame as Roy Allison, last project was the IDS-25 array.  Look it up, it's got quite a following, and I may not be remembering correctly, but I think RA was experimenting with them also.

Guess where I'm going with all this is I'd like to "correctly" add more drivers to the A:1.  And by correctly, I mean use the original drivers (have them), and build the IC20 cross over - which I will do.  To house the added four drivers to my "tops", I had first thought about cutting up a set of empty A:1 cabinets my son has, essentially lop the top off, flip it over, and put new top on it, and put it on top of my A:1.  I was persuaded not to sacrifice those cabinets, so will build new.  So now I'm committed to building new top cabinets, so really just want to see if RA kept the mid to tweet spacing the same as the A:1.

 I may even build the switchable cross over, haven't decided yet, but if I do, it won't be remotely operated.  So, short of the push pull, and the cabinet volume, I'll be as close as can be.  Roy is not building these anymore, and as we all know, they're extremely rare, so how would one get close? - I think the path I'm on is pretty solid.

Project update? 

[newandold]

.

[newandold]

On 6/18/2021 at 10:05 AM, newandold said:

A bit of History….(if it wasn’t clear about the IC20).

The cabinets were not built by Allison Acoustics, but rather by an outside contractor. 

.

[newandold]

On 2/20/2019 at 11:09 AM, mikezohsix said:

Hi Bill -

Think I've contacted you before about your IC20's.  The idea of owning something like them has never let go since the day I got my new-to-me A:1's working correctly.  Short story on them, they turned up in CL, about 3 hours from my house, but not too far from my dad, so made a trip to pick them up.  Got them home, and was very disappointed in the sound, just no life.  A friend of mine at work, also active here, Teknofossil, had the schematic.  Turned out most of the drivers were not wired correctly, so the "pairs" were fighting each other rather than work together.  Fixed the wiring, and love at first listen - they're playing Cat Stevens as I type this!

I retired last week, and am looking for projects.  Over the last 18 months or so I collected some A:1 tweeters and was given four mids and some common A:1 to IC20 cross over components (again by Teknofossil - thanks Tom!) with the idea that I'd build "tops" for my A:1's that would mimic the IC20, with a new cross over of course.  This would be a quick and reversible path to at least get a feel for whether I'd want to build IC20 cabinets.

So with all that said, would you provide the center to center distance of the MTTM array from you speakers?

This will give me the cabinet dimensions for my "tops", to start my project.

Many thanks,

Mike

16 inches….

[newandold]

On 2/21/2019 at 3:31 PM, mikezohsix said:

I understand I will not have the push pull woofers, and will not have "real" IC20's, but I'll be closer to them then I currently am with my refreshed A:1's.  I have considered the push pull, and could print the reverse woofer tube, which I may very well do if I decide to build IC20 replica cabinets.  I'm not there yet, this is an interim experiment, that may never go any further.

I've played with stacking speakers, running multiples, and have always found the results interesting.  You gain some things and lose other things.  One of my other plans is to build a pair of either a 16 or 25 driver linear array.  More drivers seem to mean more music.  Roger Russell's, of McIntosh speaker fame in the same time frame as Roy Allison, last project was the IDS-25 array.  Look it up, it's got quite a following, and I may not be remembering correctly, but I think RA was experimenting with them also.

Guess where I'm going with all this is I'd like to "correctly" add more drivers to the A:1.  And by correctly, I mean use the original drivers (have them), and build the IC20 cross over - which I will do.  To house the added four drivers to my "tops", I had first thought about cutting up a set of empty A:1 cabinets my son has, essentially lop the top off, flip it over, and put new top on it, and put it on top of my A:1.  I was persuaded not to sacrifice those cabinets, so will build new.  So now I'm committed to building new top cabinets, so really just want to see if RA kept the mid to tweet spacing the same as the A:1.

 I may even build the switchable cross over, haven't decided yet, but if I do, it won't be remotely operated.  So, short of the push pull, and the cabinet volume, I'll be as close as can be.  Roy is not building these anymore, and as we all know, they're extremely rare, so how would one get close? - I think the path I'm on is pretty solid.

Not surprisingly…..it appears this project has been shelved

[newandold]

Now into my 10th year with this extraordinary acquisition of the first pair of IC20’s. (Hard to believe)!

Operating flawlessly since the initial and very thorough going over back in 2012. 
At 35 years “young” minus those 20 years of originally boxed storage, they have but 15 years only of careful usage, with the low end relieved (still) by the Velodyne 18” sub.