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What is the best alternative Tweeter for AR 10 Pi, AR 11 and AR 12 ?


aquila2010

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Hello Everybody!

I would like to know what is the best "alterative" tweeter (both expensive and low cost) for AR 10 Pi and AR 11 (both 4 ohm) and for AR 12 (8 ohm) that you have used when restoring these loudspeakers.

I think that here there are the most competent and experienced people in restoring these beloved loudspeakers (Roy Champagne, Tom Tyson, Carlspeak, John O'Hanlon etc. ) who can  help me with precious information.

I Know the best solution is to buy the original tweeters on Ebay, but they are becaming rarer and rarer and the costs higher and higher especially for people who live in Europe like me (unfortunately the shipping costs and customs are very expensive).

So I wanted to buy the HiVi Q1R but here ( http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=7420) RoyC advises against its use for AR 10 Pi and 11. It is an old topic and now, maybe, he has changed his mind about it.

As it is very difficult to read all that it has already been written about the alternative tweeters for vintage ARs ( English is not my first language and so, for me,  it's not easy to read all the old topics), I would like to have an update by the experts about the alternative tweeters that can be successfully used in AR 10Pi, AR11 and AR12.

Moreover, I would like to Know if the HiVi Q1R is still the best tweeter for AR 3a, LST, 5, 2ax or if today there are other better alternatives than it .

PS: I have seen the tympany OX20SC00-04 ( http://www.parts-express.com/tymphany-ox20sc00-04-3-4-fabric-dome-tweeter--264-1002). It's a 3/4" 4 ohm fabric dome tweeter. It would seem a good low cost tweeter for our beloved ARs. It does not fit the hole, but this is not a big problem for me. Did anybody test it in old ARs?

Thank you in advance for any help and information you can provide.

 

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I have used the Scanspeak D2008 as a 3a dome tweeter replacement for one customer. Fabrication of an adapter plate was required to mount this small tweeter.

Also used Fountek Neo CD 3 ribbon. There are a number of options, but you need to be able to craft an appropriate XO mod to seamlessly blend the new tweeter with the existing mid. Don't fret over nominal impedance. For example, the D2008 is 8 ohm. It just requires a different size cap than a 4 ohm version (not available) would use.

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Hello Aquila,

Other than used original tweeters for these models, the later dome AR tweeter used in the AR-9 series (and the AR-58) appears to be the best "drop-in" alternative at the moment. Ebay's Vintage AR/Larry Lagace has a variety of these available, including new-old-stock replacements. I am not aware of anything new on this front.

Roy

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I am also looking at the Seas Prestige 19TFF1 (H0737) 3/4" Textile Dome Tweeter

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-prestige-19tff1-h0737-3/4-textile-dome-tweeter/

And like the idea of a ribbon.

Having three sets of 5's I will probably leave one with original tweeters -- another with the HiVi conversion or Seas -- and the other with a ribbon or maybe an outboard Linaeum tweeter per ar_pro's suggestion who also thought the AR-91 tweeters might be a good choice.

Roger

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On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2015 at 6:21 PM, Carlspeak said:

I have used the Scanspeak D2008 as a 3a dome tweeter replacement for one customer. Fabrication of an adapter plate was required to mount this small tweeter.

Also used Fountek Neo CD 3 ribbon. There are a number of options, but you need to be able to craft an appropriate XO mod to seamlessly blend the new tweeter with the existing mid. Don't fret over nominal impedance. For example, the D2008 is 8 ohm. It just requires a different size cap than a 4 ohm version (not available) would use.

Carl, thank you very much for your suggestions.

The Scanspeak is a very good tweeter and in Europe its price is reasonable (about 100 Euro a pair).

Was about Its real sensitivity? Was it good for 3a? I'm a little concerned about it. The last versions (mkII) of AR10 Pi and AR11 had 87 dB.

As regards the Fountek Neo CD 3 ribbon, I would prefer to use a dynamic tweeter to respect the original design of these speakers.

Thanks

 

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On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2015 at 6:35 PM, RoyC said:

Hello Aquila,

Other than used original tweeters for these models, the later dome AR tweeter used in the AR-9 series (and the AR-58) appears to be the best "drop-in" alternative at the moment. Ebay's Vintage AR/Larry Lagace has a variety of these available, including new-old-stock replacements. I am not aware of anything new on this front.

Roy

Roy, thank you very much for answering.

I already knew about AR 9, 90, etc tweeters but they are as expensive as AR 10 Pi / 11 ones! The new-old-stock replacement tweeter for AR 9 etc. sold by Vintage AR is too expensive (about 300 $ in the USA and 450-500 $ to have them in Europe! ).

Imho Vintage AR has too high prices: other sellers sell the same tweeter for about 79 $ (too expensive as well, imho). Moreover I do think that some of the new-old-stock replacement tweeters sold by vintage AR and the others sellers are not original tweeters, I mean "Made in USA". You can clearly understand it by the details of their construction. They seem manufacturated in the East.

Roy, 3 questions for you:

Could you please explain me why the HiVi Q1R tweeter is not good for AR 10 Pi, AR 11 and AR 12? Did you test it in one of these speakers?

Moreover, do you think that it is still the best low cost choice for AR 3a?

Thanks

 

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On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2015 at 7:03 PM, owlsplace said:

I am also looking at the Seas Prestige 19TFF1 (H0737) 3/4" Textile Dome Tweeter

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-prestige-19tff1-h0737-3/4-textile-dome-tweeter/

And like the idea of a ribbon.

Having three sets of 5's I will probably leave one with original tweeters -- another with the HiVi conversion or Seas -- and the other with a ribbon or maybe an outboard Linaeum tweeter per ar_pro's suggestion who also thought the AR-91 tweeters might be a good choice.

Roger

Roger, thank you very much

I like very much the Seas because it is a low cost, 3/4" and texile tweeter. I would have preferred it was 4 ohm. Moreover its sensitivity is not very high.

This is why I'm very interested in the Tympany tweeter I mentioned before ( http://www.parts-express.com/tymphany-ox20sc00-04-3-4-fabric-dome-tweeter--264-1002 ? a low cost, 3/4", 4 ohm and texile tweeter: that is identical to some of the original AR 10 Pi tweeter characteristics. That  is very important  to try to respect the original design as much as possible. Moreover Its specifications are good and its sensitivity is more than 91 dB and so it's possible to model its frequency response by a custom made crossover to make it similar to the original AR 10 Pi tweeter. 

As it is a low cost tweeter (in USA) and very similar to the original AR 10 Pi tweeter (3/4", 4 ohm and texile tweeter) I hope someone here will test it in one of the speakers I have mentioned in my thread title.

Thanks

 

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Carl, thank you very much for your suggestions.

The Scanspeak is a very good tweeter and in Europe its price is reasonable (about 100 Euro a pair).

Was about Its real sensitivity? Was it good for 3a? I'm a little concerned about it. The last versions (mkII) of AR10 Pi and AR11 had 87 dB.

As regards the Fountek Neo CD 3 ribbon, I would prefer to use a dynamic tweeter to respect the original design of these speakers.

Thanks

Luigi

You can check out the SS specs at www.madisound.com. IIRC, it's in the high 80's which should be a nice fit with the other drivers. Even if it's a bit bright, you've got the rheostats to tame it down to your liking.

Another fine tweeter brand I forgot to mention earlier is Hiquophon. Google them. There are 3 types and think all are 3/4 inch (~20 mm).

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 12:51 PM, Carlspeak said:

You can check out the SS specs at www.madisound.com. IIRC, it's in the high 80's which should be a nice fit with the other drivers. Even if it's a bit bright, you've got the rheostats to tame it down to your liking.

Another fine tweeter brand I forgot to mention earlier is Hiquophon. Google them. There are 3 types and think all are 3/4 inch (~20 mm).

Thank you Carl

As the TYMPANY OX20SC00-04 is a silk dome, 3/4", 4 ohm and low cost tweeter, could you please show us its real measurements and especially the comparison with the original AR tweeters (3a, 10 Pi) if you'll have the opportunity of testing it? I think that it could be a successfully and low cost alternative driver for the original AR10Pi, AR11 and AR12 tweeter (and maybe 3a as well) as it is very similar with it in many aspects. Of course it is very probable that it will be necessary to modify the original crossover network to get the best performace  in the beloved AR.

Thanks

 

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 4:12 PM, Sonnar said:

Hello Luigi. Maybe the excellent vintage Kef T27 , low-sensitivity 3/4" dome tweeter doesn't need complicate mods on the crossover .

Hello Adriano,

In my opinion the Kef T27 Is not so good as the original AR10Pi tweeter. Moreover it is very rare and expensive becouse it was very fragile. As you know the AR 10 Pi and 11 especially the mark II version ( in the MKII version all the drivers use an aluminum former for the voice coils. Besides the tweeter has ferrofluid too) withstand a lot of power. Even crossing the T27 at 5,000 Hz I doubt that it would withstand the same power as the original AR tweeter. I have seen a lot of T27 damaged by not too much power.

 

If I go to Rome I hope you'll let me listen to your wonderful AR3s! Unfortunately I could never listen to them ?

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 4:12 PM, Sonnar said:

Hello Luigi. Maybe the excellent vintage Kef T27 , low-sensitivity 3/4" dome tweeter doesn't need complicate mods on the crossover .

 

As I have already said, the TYMPANY OX20SC00-04 is similar in many anatomical aspects to the original AR 10Pi tweeter. This Tympany tweeter has been produced since several years but I had never attached to it so much importance because of its low cost.

I told Sonnar I think that the original AR 10Pi tweeter was superior to the Kef T27 used in many good loudspeakers as the very famous LS 3/5a designed by BBC and produced by several speaker manufacturers. Nevertheless I began to consider the TYMPANY OX20SC00-04 as a possible high-quality alternative to the AR 10 Pi tweeter, just when it was chosen and used in the LS 3/5a clone designed by the excellent Italian audio electronic company AUDIOMATICA. So I realized that this tweeter is probably an excellent performer despite its low cost.

AUDIOMATICA is a famous Italian audio electronic company that designed and still produces CLIO (http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=97).

Here (http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?p=1851) you can see and download an interesting series of papers, written in Italian and published in the magazine Audiocostruzione, about the design of a small bookshelf loudspeaker, thought to be, in its aspect and sound, a modern LS3/5A reproduction.

So, dear Adriano, although I told you I prefer the AR 10 Pi tweeter to the Kef T27 I began to consider the TYMPANY OX20SC00-04 as a possible alternative to AR 10 Pi original Tweeter thanks to a clone of the old LS 3/5a (that uses the tweeter you suggested me)!

 

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Luigi

I did rate T27 as one of the best tweeters in 80´s. Kef used to cross it over at 3,5K with 18 dB slopes, so efficiency should not be problem. I suppose power handling must have been close to AR dome tweeters before introduction of ferrofluid, as VC dimensions were quite similar. T27 was one of the first dome tweeters to have response up to 40 kHz.

But I fear that you are right... somehow I remember that HF of T27 was quite dissimilar compared AR dome, so it may be unsuitable as AR tweeter replacement.

Falcon Acoustics do make current version of of T27 along with Kef B110. They are not cheap now... but I think that Falcon has manged quite well in pricing, as Kef´s were not cheap in the 60´s to 90´s either... and they are also now made in UK.

http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/drive-units-1/falcon-b110-t27-drive-unit.html

I raised this issue as it is so nice to see that manufacturing of classic drive unit seems to be possible even in the western world, which especially looks amazing. Falcon also seems to have difficulties to keep production numbers up to demand, as there is now 1 month lead time for some units. Hopefully we can see day when someone in Boston area will retool for new faithful reproduction of AR tweeter.

Best Regards

Kimmo

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 8:08 PM, Carlspeak said:

I haven't tested the tweeter you are interested in. Also, I have not experience with the 10 pi tweeter.

AR 10 Pi and AR 11 tweeters are identical and are 4 ohm. Part # 200011-1

AR 12 tweeter is the 8 ohm version. Part # 200011-2

The 200011-1/-2 tweeters were tested by Pete B

(http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=1381) and thoroughly by Ken Kentor (unfortunately the link he gave to see the measurements has not worked since long and anyway I can't find it now).

If someone has saved the AR 10Pi / 11/ 12 tweeter measurements made by some members during all these years, please post them.

Thank you

 

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Hopefully we can see day when someone in Boston area will retool for new faithful reproduction of AR tweeter

That would be an excellent question for Tom Tyson, Kimmo.

Does the original tooling still exist?

This guy lives in the Pacific NW and has been trying to re-manufacture the AR3a tweeter. Last post seems hopeful, but I have my doubts he'll succeed. Anyway, here's a link to his thread at Audiokarma.org Speakers forum if you want follow what he has done and will be doing.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=566247

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 6:52 PM, iso said:

Luigi

I did rate T27 as one of the best tweeters in 80´s. Kef used to cross it over at 3,5K with 18 dB slopes, so efficiency should not be problem. I suppose power handling must have been close to AR dome tweeters before introduction of ferrofluid, as VC dimensions were quite similar. T27 was one of the first dome tweeters to have response up to 40 kHz.

But I fear that you are right... somehow I remember that HF of T27 was quite dissimilar compared AR dome, so it may be unsuitable as AR tweeter replacement.

Falcon Acoustics do make current version of of T27 along with Kef B110. They are not cheap now... but I think that Falcon has manged quite well in pricing, as Kef´s were not cheap in the 60´s to 90´s either... and they are also now made in UK.

http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/drive-units-1/falcon-b110-t27-drive-unit.html

I raised this issue as it is so nice to see that manufacturing of classic drive unit seems to be possible even in the western world, which especially looks amazing. Falcon also seems to have difficulties to keep production numbers up to demand, as there is now 1 month lead time for some units. Hopefully we can see day when someone in Boston area will retool for new faithful reproduction of AR tweeter.

Best Regards

Kimmo

Dear Kimmo,

Unfortunately for us I do really think that the LS 3/5a has many more fans and lovers than any AR speakers. In fact a used "little" LS 3/5a cost as much as or more than a "big" vintage AR.

So the great interest around the LS 3/5a allows some manifacturers to make big profits on it. Unfortunately if no manufacturer has produced compatible drivers for vintage AR speakers untill now, I do not think it will happen anymore in the future.

I hoped that some manufacturer from China could have some interest on AR drivers but unfortunately this has not happened untill now at least.

Let's keep on hoping!

Best regards

 

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AR started sourcing drivers from Tonegen/Foster sometime during the 80s, if I recall correctly. So not all "original" AR drivers were US made.

As far as I know and I have seen during many years, AR produced its drivers until 1984/85, then they were all produced by Tonegen (Foster).

I think that AR stopped producing its drivers with the LSimproved series (9 LSi, 98 LSi etc.). In Europe in these speakers I have seen only Tonegen drivers.

Luigi

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Roy, 3 questions for you:

Could you please explain me why the HiVi Q1R tweeter is not good for AR 10 Pi, AR 11 and AR 12? Did you test it in one of these speakers?

Moreover, do you think that it is still the best low cost choice for AR 3a?

Thanks

Luigi

Luigi,

The AR-11/10Pi/12 already have inductors in place across the tweeter, and also have different tweeter capacitor values than the AR-3a. Consequently, the HiVi tweeter cannot be implemented in these models in the same, simple way (with just an added parallel inductor). Secondly, the level controls of the AR-3a, and other early models, are extremely useful for this purpose. The later models' switch arrangements are not as forgiving.

...So the HiVi tweeter and the various tweeters mentioned in this thread may very well work with the later models as long as you are able to identify the proper crossover changes required to make them sound like the original configuration...and make cabinet hole modifications as needed.

The HiVi Q1R/inductor combo is easily still the best low cost replacement tweeter for the AR-3a.

Roy

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On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2015 at 6:26 AM, RoyC said:

Luigi,

The AR-11/10Pi/12 already have inductors in place across the tweeter, and also have different tweeter capacitor values than the AR-3a. Consequently, the HiVi tweeter cannot be implemented in these models in the same, simple way (with just an added parallel inductor). Secondly, the level controls of the AR-3a, and other early models, are extremely useful for this purpose. The later models' switch arrangements are not as forgiving.

...So the HiVi tweeter and the various tweeters mentioned in this thread may very well work with the later models as long as you are able to identify the proper crossover changes required to make them sound like the original configuration...and make cabinet hole modifications as needed.

The HiVi Q1R/inductor combo is easily still the best low cost replacement tweeter for the AR-3a.

Roy

Roy, thank you very much for answering.

So, if I have understand correctly, changing the crossover network it is possible to use the HiVi Q1R also in the AR 10Pi, 11 and 12.

I thought you meant there was a low sensitivity problem of HiVi Q1R in comparision with the AR original fabric dome tweeter.

I never had the HiVi Q1R and so I do not Know if its *real* sensitivity is higher or lower than AR original fabric dome tweeter. If you know something about that, please let me Know.

Thanks

 

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