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Cloth surround sealer question


Dchristie

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I realize that there are a lot of topics regarding the proper sealer for cloth surrounds but I have a question regarding the restoration ( increasing the viscosity) of AR Vintage cloth sealer. I bought two samples from the AR Vintage Store on ebay and despite my best efforts to keep air from the containers, both samples have thickened to the point of being unusable. The AR Store indicates they should be good for a year or so but mine seem to have become too thick in a relatively short time ( 6 mos).

So, I am wondering if Roy or Tom or (?) has any advice as to how I might thin the sealer so it is once again usable for sealing surrounds.

Thanks

Dean

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I realize that there are a lot of topics regarding the proper sealer for cloth surrounds but I have a question regarding the restoration ( increasing the viscosity) of AR Vintage cloth sealer. I bought two samples from the AR Vintage Store on ebay and despite my best efforts to keep air from the containers, both samples have thickened to the point of being unusable. The AR Store indicates they should be good for a year or so but mine seem to have become too thick in a relatively short time ( 6 mos).

So, I am wondering if Roy or Tom or (?) has any advice as to how I might thin the sealer so it is once again usable for sealing surrounds.

Thanks

Dean

Hi Dean,

Toluene/toluol (no "substitutes") will bring your sealant back to life, but It is hard to find in some states. I'm told easier-to-find xylene may work as well, though I have never tried it. You may also want to contact Larry (Vintage AR) with the issue. I have his email address if you need it.

Keep me posted...

Roy

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If you can manage to find toluene, it's going to be at an industrial supplier and the smallest container available will be about 500ml. The cost will be higher than just buying the sealer from Larry again. If Larry told you it would keep for a year and it hasn't, your best bet is to contact him and see if you can return it for a fresh jar. He's good about backing what he sells.

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You can also try paint stores and auto body shops (or the companies that supply auto body shops). You could also try to find an ink formulator company in your area. You can buy reagent grade online but it's costly. I paid $25 for a gallon at a paint store. I used to work in the petrochemical industry and we had about 50,000 gallons on hand at any time.

As mentioned above: Xylene may work and evaporates slower. There are three types of xylene though.

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Hi Dean,

Toluene/toluol (no "substitutes") will bring your sealant back to life, but It is hard to find in some states. I'm told easier-to-find xylene may work as well, though I have never tried it. You may also want to contact Larry (Vintage AR) with the issue. I have his email address if you need it.

Keep me posted...

Roy

Hi Roy, thanks for your reply and yes, I would like to respond to Larry so I would appreciate it if you would provide me with his email address.

Thanks

Dean

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If the key to storing the sealer is keeping it air tight, a trick often used another liquids like tung oil is to add ball bearings to the container until the liquid rises to the top and then cap it as usual, basically getting rid of the air space. You could even pretend to be an old world vinter if you want and put a little candle wax around it for a for sure seal. Roy, will the sealant stick to the bearings in this application? If it does maybe just find a smaller container to reduce the air space and do the candle wax thing. Might be worth trying some things like that?

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You can get aerosol cans loaded with nitrogen gas at your local wine shop. Nitrogen is heavier than air, so if you fill the space at the top of the jar with it, it'll keep any air left in the jar off the contents. But as with the toluene, it's going to cost as much or more than the sealant itself.

As long as Larry has enough of the sealant to keep stocking it in his eBay store, your best bet is just to not buy it until you need it.

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I believe the issue has to do with the lining of the metal bottle caps Larry was using for awhile. He told me the bottle caps he uses now have a diferent lining, and are more resistant to solvents.

When I was first experimenting with this stuff I was using "flourinated" plastic bottles, which are excellent for the purpose. They are, however, meant for laboratory use and are expensive. I still have some of the original batch in this type of bottle, which has lasted 4+ years.

http://scicominc.com/fluorinated-hdpe-bottles/

Roy

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Just two random comments from my experience. The small container of butyl sealer that I purchased over three years ago from the mad chemist who concocted this elixir still remains in a fully liquid state with a tightly fitting cap. Also, despite "no substitute" alerts, a very small amount of lacquer thinner has worked well for me to create a consistency which is more easily brush-applied.

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Just two random comments from my experience. The small container of butyl sealer that I purchased over three years ago from the mad chemist who concocted this elixir still remains in a fully liquid state with a tightly fitting cap. Also, despite "no substitute" alerts, a very small amount of lacquer thinner has worked well for me to create a consistency which is more easily brush-applied.

ra.ra,

The "substututes" I was referring to are the "environment friendly" alternatives often found on the same shelf.

Glad my bottle worked satisfactorily. I believe Larry was using bottles with foam lined caps, which were compromised by the toluene.

Roy

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All of the solvents mentioned here can be seriously toxic, so it is understandable that certain cap linings could fail due to contact or prolonged vapor presence. After sealing several 8" surrounds, my little bottle is still as good as the day it arrived. The stuff is great, and when used with care, reasonably forgiving.

The OP has asked about thinning his hardened syrup, and without trying to dissect the specific chemistry or evaluate industrial-size quantities, my experience with a few drops of commonly available solvent has been very effective in changing the physical state of the butyl solution.

post-112624-0-51673900-1438105817_thumb.

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So far, the least expensive solution for the OP's problem is still to buy it again from Larry. That's assuming that Larry doesn't just send him a replacement n/c (which, knowing how Larry is would not surprise me).

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So far, the least expensive solution for the OP's problem is still to buy it again from Larry.

I would first try xylene at $7 per quart, where toluene is not available:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-1-qt-Xylol-Xylene-QXY24/202310295

Xylene (xylol) is a very close cousin to toluene (toluol) and is used as an alternative for a number of other applications (and, yes, one or the other is often found in small amounts in lacquer thinner). Lowe's, Home Depot, and Ace all carry quart cans of xylene locally here in NY.

Forum members can also contact me for more sealant.

Roy

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I would first try xylene at $7 per quart, where toluene is not available:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-1-qt-Xylol-Xylene-QXY24/202310295

Xylene (xylol) is a very close cousin to toluene (toluol) and is used as an alternative for a number of other applications (and, yes, one or the other is often found in small amounts in lacquer thinner). Lowe's, Home Depot, and Ace all carry quart cans of xylene locally here in NY.

Forum members can also contact me for more sealant.

Roy

No toluene here. My bottle still looks great. I never opened it since the woofers I was going to use it on ended up getting foam :(

Roger

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No toluene here. My bottle still looks great. I never opened it since the woofers I was going to use it on ended up getting foam :(

Roger

Well, I did try RoyC's surround treatment today on the orphan 4xa since I was pimping it out with a wet sand coat of Watco finishing wax and fresh flat black paint on the baffle.

There was a bit of whitish settlement in the jar. I brushed it on as thin as I could but thought it was still too heavy. I cleaned the brush with MEK which dissolved it into a whitish looking solution. Seeing this I decided to knock down the finish on the surround using MEK and cotton buds working slowly so as not to saturate too much area. Didn't want to dissolve the surround cement. I ended up with a finish very similar to the tacky silk domes that ADS used on their high end speakers.

Depressing the woofer indicated there was an acoustic seal which I didn't think was possible with the vented dust cap and coil structure. It took slightly under two seconds to return to rest.

Hmmm, maybe I can get some of the dust off my ADS drivers using this technique :)

Roger

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I had two early 70´s JBL 123A-1 woofers few years ago with aged cloth surrounds. Sealer was missing some places on one woofer and other one was close to perfect, but a bit dusty looking. I removed small amount of sealer from "perfect" woofer with paintbrush and acetone, and placed this lifted off goop on palaces where the goop was missing. After this I used acetone and paintbrush to dress cloth surrounds all over for even looking finish and tried not to dissolve glue seams. This worked very well. Surrounds were "as new" looking and fs did go slightly lower... but raised to close "before" figures after few weeks.

Is it possible that similar fix is OK for AR cloth surrounds?

Best Regards

Kimmo

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Well, I did try RoyC's surround treatment today on the orphan 4xa since I was pimping it out with a wet sand coat of Watco finishing wax and fresh flat black paint on the baffle.

There was a bit of whitish settlement in the jar. I brushed it on as thin as I could but thought it was still too heavy. I cleaned the brush with MEK which dissolved it into a whitish looking solution. Seeing this I decided to knock down the finish on the surround using MEK and cotton buds working slowly so as not to saturate too much area. Didn't want to dissolve the surround cement. I ended up with a finish very similar to the tacky silk domes that ADS used on their high end speakers.

Depressing the woofer indicated there was an acoustic seal which I didn't think was possible with the vented dust cap and coil structure. It took slightly under two seconds to return to rest.

Hmmm, maybe I can get some of the dust off my ADS drivers using this technique :)

Roger

Today I brought some sealant back to life with xylene after letting the goo congeal at the bottom of a capless bottle for a few days. For all practical purposes it appears to work as well as toluene (David, thanks for the chemistry info), and appears to be much more available in smaller quantities than toluene. I also tried MEK resulting in the same white stuff described by Roger. I'm not convinced, however, it isn't doing something other than simply dissolving it...and it did not stay in suspension over time. MEK is very nasty, and can dissolve the surround adhesive as well.

Diluting the sealant with toluene or xylene will make it useful to treat any cone or tweeter formerly treated with sticky compounds of old. Vintage AR/Larry uses it on tweeters he purchases from Parts Express for the AR-4x. Roger, I have used it on ADS tweeters.

Roger, If the alnico woofer magnet has masking tape on it, or if the woofer has a ferrite magnet, the porous screen dust cap does not vent into the cabinet, so the "slow woofer return" is possible. It is only AR-4x woofers with screens on the alnico magnet sides that cannot be completely sealed.

Roy

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Today I brought some sealant back to life with xylene after letting the goo congeal at the bottom of a capless bottle for a few days. For all practical purposes it appears to work as well as toluene (David, thanks for the chemistry info), and appears to be much more available in smaller quantities than toluene. I also tried MEK resulting in the same white stuff described by Roger. I'm not convinced, however, it isn't doing something other than simply dissolving it...and it did not stay in suspension over time. MEK is very nasty, and can dissolve the surround adhesive as well.

Diluting the sealant with toluene or xylene will make it useful to treat any cone or tweeter formerly treated with sticky compounds of old. Vintage AR/Larry uses it on tweeters he purchases from Parts Express for the AR-4x. Roger, I have used it on ADS tweeters.

Roger, If the alnico woofer magnet has masking tape on it, or if the woofer has a ferrite magnet, the porous screen dust cap does not vent into the cabinet, so the "slow woofer return" is possible. It is only AR-4x woofers with screens on the alnico magnet sides that cannot be completely sealed.

Roy

I'll keep an eye on the MEK treated surround and see how it weathers. It is an orphan and I didn't mind experimenting on it since I had to bridge the vc lead wire on the tweeter to make it work. I just happened to have an old can of MEK around and used it to clean the brush on a whim. It is nasty stuff for sure for outside use only. It does evaporate fast fortunately.

This woofer has the screens so it does vent, just not very quickly apparently.

Roger

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