DavidR Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 I thought you'd find that interesting David.It’s been a while since I read thru this thread but I thought the frequency issue was with small value caps being measured at too low of a frequency. Even when I paralleled the 150 + 200 I got the sum of the two. I was hoping I wouldn’t run into this issue with larger values. It’s still possible that their manufacturing process does not have good quality control in place. I was pissed about the Pulse-X cap since it took over 2 weeks from the time I ordered until it arrived.From the ERSE website:ERSE's Non-Polar Electrolytic Capacitors are an excellent choice for the speaker industries' use. The Non-Polar caps are perfect for crossover networks of high, band, and low pass systems. ERSE caps measure with excellent frequency characteristics and a small deviation in capacitance. Available in 100V units, with a wide range of both DF and Capacitance. See links below for part lists and test data.ERSE's 6%DF line of Non-Polar Electrolytic Capacitors are an excellent choice for speaker crossover building and feature a low 5% tolerance. The 6% DF Non-Polar caps are perfect for crossover networks of bandpass,low pass and high pass systems. ERSE's 6% DF NPE caps have excellent frequency characteristics and are very linear verses frequency. The 6% df caps will exhibit better acoustic properties than the 10% df line and handle larger amounts of power due to it's lower ripple current. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 It’s been a while since I read thru this thread but I thought the frequency issue was with small value caps being measured at too low of a frequency. Even when I paralleled the 150 + 200 I got the sum of the two. I was hoping I wouldn’t run into this issue with larger values. It’s still possible that their manufacturing process does not have good quality control in place. I was pissed about the Pulse-X cap since it took over 2 weeks from the time I ordered until it arrived.David,The frequency issue relative to some capacitor meters becomes more pronounced with higher cap values, not lower values. Caps over 20uf are being measured at a very low 8hz with these meters. You may want to double check your Pulse-X caps with a different meter. It is extremely unusual to get a "bad" film cap (I never have). "Bouncing" around is often a connection lead or a meter issue.Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Hi Roy,When I said small cap value I meant like 20uF and under. I guess I had it backwards most likely because the thread began with an issue with 12uF caps. Thanks for pointing that out. After I posted the last post I looked at the pamphlet that came with the meter. It uses 3 different frequencies dependent on the value selected. I attached a jpeg scan of the page with the ranges.As for the two 82uF Pulse-X caps one was fine at 82.3uF the other ramps up to mid 60's and bounces all around. Naturally I re-calibrated the meter and then ended up with the same bouncing reading. I checked the battery with my Fluke VOA meter and it was a new, healthy 9V reading just over 9 volts. I was surprised as the first batch of Pulse-X caps for the tweeter and UMR were all spot on. I'd be happy to send it to you or Carl if they replace it and let me keep it.The 150 and 200uF NPEs as well as the combo of the two would have been tested at 8Hz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Hi Roy,When I said small cap value I meant like 20uF and under. I guess I had it backwards most likely because the thread began with an issue with 12uF caps. Thanks for pointing that out. After I posted the last post I looked at the pamphlet that came with the meter. It uses 3 different frequencies dependent on the value selected. I attached a jpeg scan of the page with the ranges.As for the two 82uF Pulse-X caps one was fine at 82.3uF the other ramps up to mid 60's and bounces all around. Naturally I re-calibrated the meter and then ended up with the same bouncing reading. I checked the battery with my Fluke VOA meter and it was a new, healthy 9V reading just over 9 volts. I was surprised as the first batch of Pulse-X caps for the tweeter and UMR were all spot on. I'd be happy to send it to you or Carl if they replace it and let me keep it.The 150 and 200uF NPEs as well as the combo of the two would have been tested at 8Hz.Your meter's specs are the same as the meters I commented on in post #35. Values between 2uf and 20uf are being measured at 80hz with these meters.This is very low, given rated specs are typically at 1000hz, and may provide misleading results when measuring electrolytic caps.Keep us posted on the funky film cap. I would be happy to check it out if you are able to keep it.Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Post #35: The one post I've been waiting for but missed. Duh.So what do the many hobbyists with a $45 hand held cap meter like myself do to determined good vs bad NPEs? I don't know what the WT2 is all about. I certainly don't feel comfortable using these NPEs not knowing if they are good or bad. I would think that the caps should still not exceed their tolerance. But that's just me.I'm back in the "Do I spend a chuck of cash for PP caps on a 350uF shunt cap?" camp. Perhaps yes just for comfort level.What was the difference between the Solen 250V and 400V that were making people lean towards the higher volt rating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 What was the difference between the Solen 250V and 400V that were making people lean towards the higher volt rating?It is a wonder how our old AR's managed to function at all with 50V npe caps, and 18 ga lamp cord speaker wire. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Your meter's specs are the same as the meters I commented on in post #35. Values between 2uf and 20uf are being measured at 80hz with these meters.This is very low, given rated specs are typically at 1000hz, and may provide misleading results when measuring electrolytic caps.Keep us posted on the funky film cap. I would be happy to check it out if you are able to keep it.RoyLast week ERSE sent me some new NPEs that they tested on their meter before sending them. They measured approx the same range as the first batch on my meter - no surprise there. They were out of the 82uF Pulse-X and I never heard back from them on returning the first shipment - they were going to send me an email with a label attached to print. I called today for an RA# so I could return them. It seems they don't want them back now and I asked about when would they have the 82uF back in stock. It seems they will not be carrying this value along with other large value caps. Urrrghhh. Now I have to find a replacement for the 80uFs in my 90s AND I'm stuck with a $20 cap and a $20 cap that's NG. It seems the Solen 250V are more expensive than the 400V and harder to find - go figure; plus I'm 'gun shy' about using Solen. Back to the drawing board.Roy, if you want me to send you the bad 82uF email where you'd like me to send it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Hi David,I just sent you a PM with my mailing address. If you would like to send me both of your large caps, I'll purchase the good one, and let you know if I can determine what is going on with the bad one.As far as other film caps to use, I'm assuming you still prefer to use a single cap, otherwise there are a number of good choices to bundle to make the proper value.What is your concern with Solen caps? I have no idea why there would be a preference for the 400V variety, other than the film being a bit thicker, but I seriously doubt there is an audible advantage. (You've been hanging around that AK Forum too much. )Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Hi David,I just sent you a PM with my mailing address. If you would like to send me both of your large caps, I'll purchase the good one, and let you know if I can determine what is going on with the bad one.As far as other film caps to use, I'm assuming you still prefer to use a single cap, otherwise there are a number of good choices to bundle to make the proper value.What is your concern with Solen caps? I have no idea why there would be a preference for the 400V variety, other than the film being a bit thicker, but I seriously doubt there is an audible advantage. (You've been hanging around that AK Forum too much. )RoyThe issue with Solen is all the talk of the grainy and brightness. I think the 400v is preferred due to it being less or not an issue. I was looking at the Solen 250V today and the 150uF is not easy to find and they are more money than the 400V at Madisound. I have a friend in Canada who does a lot of audio repairs and says there is no such issue with Solen in either voltage. He's a big fan of them. I'm not on AK very much but there was a member who told me shunt caps won't affect the sound. True or not true?I'll PM you about the ERSE 82uF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 The issue with Solen is all the talk of the grainy and brightness. I think the 400v is preferred due to it being less or not an issue. I was looking at the Solen 250V today and the 150uF is not easy to find and they are more money than the 400V at Madisound. I have a friend in Canada who does a lot of audio repairs and says there is no such issue with Solen in either voltage. He's a big fan of them. I'm not on AK very much but there was a member who told me shunt caps won't affect the sound. True or not true?I'll PM you about the ERSE 82uF.As Carl discussed earlier in this thread the resistance (ESR) presented by an npe is significant compared to a film cap, especially at certain frequencies. Depending on the speaker, the condition of the original npe cap, and the listener's preferences, the new film cap may sound "harsh", "better defined", "gritty", "grainy", "amazing", etc, in comparison. This listener then assigns these negative or positive attributes to the brand of cap (when in fact it was the type of cap, and the associated removal of lots of series resistance) and makes a pronouncement in an audio forum that brand X "sounds" a certain way. The bottom line is I agree with your Canadian friend. Solen caps (of any voltage) are not any more harsh or grainy than any other film cap.It is generally accepted that shunt caps are less likely to affect the sound, and, since the originals are typically large value npe caps, less costly (than film caps) npe caps are often used as replacements. The difference in extremely tiny amounts of ESR presented by different brands of film caps used for this purpose is not worth discussing. Any brand of film cap will provide the same result. The greater question is not what brand of film cap to use as a shunt, rather what type of cap to use.Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Thanks Roy.I had missed the: "Depending on the speaker, the condition of the original npe cap, and the listener's preferences, the new film cap may sound "harsh", "better defined", "gritty", "grainy", "amazing", etc in comparison. This listener then assigns these negative or positive attributes to the brand of cap (when in fact it was the type of cap, and the associated removal of lots of series resistance) and makes a pronouncement in an audio forum that brand X "sounds" a certain way." Thanks for the synopsis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
der Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 I don't know about all that. I bought caps from someone that I trusted would know what to use and then installed them. I continue to like the results very much.der Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 The end of an era? Notice anything missing from the Madisound surplus caps page? Hint: they were yellow and cost $0.60 ea. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 All good things must come to an end It's nice to see the 2.7s back (I think they were unavailable for a while). FWIW, PE has surplus Sprague 10uF caps for $1.75 (if you buy 10) and 15uF for $2. -Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 54 minutes ago, JKent said: All good things must come to an end It's nice to see the 2.7s back (I think they were unavailable for a while). FWIW, PE has surplus Sprague 10uF caps for $1.75 (if you buy 10) and 15uF for $2. -Kent It was a good run except I'm halfway through the 58s recap and about ten-10s short ... may have to start from scratch on that one or have different caps in each speaker ... not that anyone would notice. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michiganpat Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 13 hours ago, owlsplace said: It was a good run except I'm halfway through the 58s recap and about ten-10s short ... may have to start from scratch on that one or have different caps in each speaker ... not that anyone would notice. Roger why? it's a waste of $$ to put anything but a NPE in the woofer circuit, IMHO.....the 40uf in the mid circuit is debatable, even.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, michiganpat said: why? it's a waste of $$ to put anything but a NPE in the woofer circuit, IMHO.....the 40uf in the mid circuit is debatable, even.... May have to start a new thread on this topic at some point ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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