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A quick hello!


fast_eddie_72

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Hello All,

I just registered for this forum, though find it hard to believe I haven't before now. I was very active at Audiokarma for a long while, but have been busy with other projects and haven't been by there in a while.

I got hooked on vintage audio after a flurry of thrift store "scores", always looking for something better than I had. At one point I had a room so full of gear, it looked like an episode of Hoarders! I started winnowing down the collection and only adding a piece occasionally if it seemed like something exceptional.

I had owned a pair of AR2AX somewhere along the way, but passed them along in favor of my ADS L810s. I said many times that they were the only speakers I'd sold that I wished I had back, so I guess that's where my AR love begain. For a very long time, the ADS were my “top dog” speakers and I started to think I would never find anything I liked any better. Then, I happened upon a Craigslist ad for “AR Speakers”. I clicked the link and didn’t recognize the speakers, though they clearly had the vintage AR hallmarks- the grill cloth, oiled walnut veneer.

Still not knowing what they were, but enticed by the $200 price, I shot the seller a frantic email followed with a phone call to his voice mail. Then I put my google-fu to work trying to figure out what they were. That, of course, brought me to this site. They were a pair of abused, but intact AR LST-2s. I put a good bit of time and a little bit of money in them and they are now in my living room. Even my wife likes the classic styling and no visitor fails to comment on them. They often seem shocked when they hear them, not expecting something that “old” to sound that good.

This was several years ago, and I was a very happy vintage AR owner. What more could I want? These had it all. Classic styling, outstanding AR bass and the array of mids and tweeters made them somewhat less “laid back” than other ARs I’d heard. They are a truly wonderful and timeless speaker. But the sirens song of Craigslist is a clever and sultry foe.

Some months ago I happened upon an ad for “AR 9LS speakers”. I had always said if a pair of 9s popped up for anything like a reasonable price I’d likely get them. But they don’t show up often, and shipping them is probably out of the question. So I thought this might be as close as I’d ever come. I called the seller and arranged to meet him that night. Showing up at his house, trying not to sound too eager, we make small talk out front for a minute, then he opens the garage door revealing, not the 9LS I was expecting, but a pair of original AR9s. I knew they would be mine and just hoped I could hide my excitement enough to get a reasonable deal.

There was much to haggle on. The tops of both cabinets are very bad. What is it about classic AR speakers that demands they be topped with plants? The rest of the cabinets were faded, but mostly in good shape. Both tweeters blown, but everything else working. I started by saying “well, first off, these aren’t 9LS, they’re original 9s”. Now, I thought, “why did I say that!?” But it was clear from the seller’s reaction that he interpreted this as detraction. Oh. Well, it would be rude to correct him. As much as I wanted these, I did have considerable internal turmoil. My wife will hate them. They’re even bigger than I imagined. How will I even get them home? They really do look bad and need some money spent on them. After a while I half convinced myself that I may actually be able to pass on them. Of course, deep down I knew I wouldn’t.

I made an offer that I thought was tough negotiation. The seller accepted immediately and offered to haul them home for me in his truck! Wow. Guess I should have offered less. And in retrospect, less would have been fair, but I have no regrets. I cleaned them up as best I could, used some finish restorer, vacuumed a lot of sawdust off the acoustic blanket, sourced two replacement tweeters (the new replacements, I’m afraid) and bought a bucket full of caps. They are not perfect, but are presentable and sound, well, like AR9s! I absolutely love them.

I still haven’t replaced the big caps (2500 uF, I believe, off the top of my head) but will at some point. I’m considering having some dark, smoked glasses cut to put on the tops as they really do look bad and are way beyond my ability to put right. But they’re wonderful. My wife took it like a champ, saying only “they’re going in the basement”. I have to agree, that’s the place for them, in our home theater set up. It’s a nice space, and it suits them better than the living room. As stellar as the performance of my LST-2s is, it’s remarkable how noticeably better the 9s are.

Well, looks like, as is often the case, my short post got long winded. I will point out one thing in closing that I find very odd. I’ve refoamed a lot of speakers in my time and assumed I would spend a good while doing the four 12” woofers and two 8” low mids. Oddly, and unexpectedly, the foam on all is in outstanding condition. They do not appear to have been refoamed, but are not deteriorated at all. Yeah, I know. I have given them a pretty serious poke, just to be sure they were sound before I pushed them, and they are absolutely solid. Bear in mind I have had all the woofers out when I did caps, so I have handled them enough to give them a good inspection. Very unusual, but I’m not complaining. I do check them often and at some point I’ll just go ahead and do them so I can stop wondering about it.

Whew. Well, that’s my “quick” hello.

Take care,

Ed

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Welcome, Fast Eddie!

Do try to post some photos of your speakers, especially showing your lower mids & woofers - some re-foam jobs I've seen are essentially perfect, leaving little clue that the foam surrounds aren't original.

It was still possible to get good replacement AR-9 drivers into the early '90s, so they might be 10 years younger than they appear. :)

The 9's are definitely worth a total restoration, including original tweeters & replacement caps - even water stains can be mitigated with refinishing - water marks are a very common problem for these tall "plant stands".

Thoroughly restored, even 30 years later, you'd need to spend thousands of dollars to match their performance.

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I need to get some half-way decent pics of the 9s. I will do that soon! I guess it is possible that the drivers were replaced or refoamed very, very well. I kind of assumed, maybe, since the tweeters were both blown and the cabinets are in relatively poor condition that they were completely unloved, but that may not be the case.

I've been so busy for a while that I haven't gotten time to go through them throughly, but even as they are, they sound fantastic.

Thanks,

Ed

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Well what do you know! I pulled the 8" driver from one of my 9s, and there is a red sticker on it that says "Service Replacement Unit". AR_Pro, that was a pretty impressive bit of detective work with so little information. I've kinda thought there was an issue in the crossover area between the 12" drivers and the 8" drivers and now I'm wondering if one of the 8s is out of phase. Going to pull up the schematic and make sure they're both right. I've had the 12s out before and didn't see a similar sticker on them, but they all must have been replaced.

(ediit) Well, according to the schematic, both 8" drivers were out of phase. Both have the red sticker. I was going to take a picture of it, but there aren't two AA batteries in the house with enough power to work the camera (ug). I'd assumed that the issue I was hearing was a cap issue. I still haven't replaced the large cap. At some point soon, I'm going to have to just pull all the drivers and check everything.

(edit again) Well, color me red. I pulled one of the 12" drivers in one cabinet, and sure enough, on the side of the magnet is the same sticker on both drivers. How I missed that when I had them out for caps, I don't know. I guess I just wasn't looking for it. But sure enough, all the 12s and 8s in my speakers are service replacement units. That's kind of remarkable. Someone loved and cared for these things at some point after all. One of the 8s has a tiny bit of trauma- a dimple in the cone, but not a tear all the way through, so I'm pretty sure it's okay.

I installed the 12s and just checked both 8s. I also installed the tweeters, so I just need to pull the mids and make sure they're in phase, but I think there would be oddness in the imaging if there was a problem there.

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The odds that the original foam surrounds would still be intact in 2012 is about zero - the first batch started going bad around 1991, and since it was still possible to get exact replacements at that time, some folks took that route; while others just hauled the 9's off to their garage or basement - those are the Craigslist bargains that we all love.

Now here's a question for the group: by observation, AR-9 original-equipment woofers & lower mids started showing foam failure at about the 10-year point (1988, or so).

Interestingly, none of the original-replacement drivers that I've seen in the past 10 years have had foam trouble, and some of these drivers are now over 20 years old!

Did AR change something with those drivers either during or after production of the AR-9 series that would account for this?

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I'm doing several projects today, but while I'm out I'll pick up some batteries for the camera and take some pictures. Since I don't have any original drivers, I can't say for sure. Will be interesting to see if any of you spot any differences. When you made your comment about them having maybe been replaced in the 90s, my first thought was that they would likely be in need of foam again by now. But the foam is in remarkable condition. I'm obviously very careful handling them, but having had some of the drivers out just last night, I can confirm what I said before about the condition. They're in very good shape.

I hope I have a little time this evening to just sit down and listen. Finding both 8s out of phase probably accounts for the issue I was hearing in the mid-bass region. I did pull the mids last night just to confirm they were in correct. They are, but one of the quick disconnects was about to fall off the terminal. So they have been out before too. Everything is here and working. It may just take me a bit of work to confirm it's all up to spec.

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Just curious, what power amp are you driving them with, how many watts?

I've not done much with veneer, but I hear that there is an iron on type that

people tell me is very easy to put on. I'll let the other experts here comment

on what would be the correct type, if it is a good idea, and how to finish it if

so. I'm thinking you might just want to redo the tops.

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Okay, got a few pics. Both 8s, an in situ shot of the set up and one of the 12s. And, uh, yes. A bigger TV is in our plans. It didn't see nearly as dwarfed before the 9s.

HPIM0290.jpg

HPIM0291.jpg

HPIM0292.jpg

HPIM0293.jpg

Pete, right now I'm running them with two channels of a Rotel six channel amp. It's not a powerhouse, but it's a good amp and sounds great. I ran them for a while with my Denon PA 2400. I love that amp. It's 200 wpc, so I think was up to the task, but truth be told, the Rotel seems to sound better with them. I know 60 wpc or so isn't supposed to light them up, but it seems to be working well. I'm not sure that what they want more than power is damping factor, and the Rotel is over 100.

Oh, and you can see my Sansui quad receiver sitting in the corner! It was powering the fronts and rears before the 9s. I actually hooked them to it at first, but it was not up to the task at all.

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The drivers are authentic replacements from sometime in the '90s, and should certainly be as good as the originals.

And honestly, I've seen worse veneer than this - if they were mine, I'd remove everything and spend a weekend block-sanding the finish (including the painted back) down to bare veneer.

This is actually easier than it sounds, and would properly prepare the surface to receive a new stained finish.

I think the water stains & veneer damage can be mitigated by careful prep, staining & sealing, and with a very pleasing end result.

I'd advise against power-sanding the finish, as the veneer is not very thick, and the next stop is pure particle board.

As an aside, the next pair of AR-9's or 90's that I come across with a wrecked finish I intend to try spraying the sanded cabinet with Duratex.

Take a look at the results that this guy got:

post-100370-0-22957900-1350799165_thumb.

post-100370-0-60855800-1350799170_thumb.

post-100370-0-01251100-1350799179_thumb.

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Hi Eddie...welcome. Before you get into a lot of work on the tops, try this..... Get a can of Howards Restore in walnut. Pour a small amount of Howards on the top and take triple 0 steel wool and sand the Howards in grain direction only and with pressure. Make sure the top stays saturated with Howards and sand, sand, sand with the steel wool in the grain direction only. Don't be afraid to put pressure on the steel wool. When satisfied with result, let it stand for a few minutes and then wipe very gently with a cotton rag to get excess Howards off. Let it dry for a day. Then very, very lightly sand with new triple 0 for a quick wipe and then rub the top down with tack cloth.

While at store buying the Howards Restore, grab their bees wax polish also. You now want to apply the bees wax to the top with a small cotton pad. Though this process won't eliminate the ring entirely, it will mask it quite nicely and think you will be satisfied...:)

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Hi Eddie...welcome. Before you get into a lot of work on the tops, try this..... Get a can of Howards Restore in walnut. Pour a small amount of Howards on the top and take triple 0 steel wool and sand the Howards in grain direction only and with pressure. Make sure the top stays saturated with Howards and sand, sand, sand with the steel wool in the grain direction only. Don't be afraid to put pressure on the steel wool. When satisfied with result, let it stand for a few minutes and then wipe very gently with a cotton rag to get excess Howards off. Let it dry for a day. Then very, very lightly sand with new triple 0 for a quick wipe and then rub the top down with tack cloth.

While at store buying the Howards Restore, grab their bees wax polish also. You now want to apply the bees wax to the top with a small cotton pad. Though this process won't eliminate the ring entirely, it will mask it quite nicely and think you will be satisfied... :)

A word of caution for those using steel wool on their cabinets....Cover or remove the dome drivers if you don't want them covered with steel wool particles. The magnetically attracted steel wool "fur" is next to impossible to remove.

Roy

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A word of caution for those using steel wool on their cabinets....Cover or remove the dome drivers if you don't want them covered with steel wool particles. The magnetically attracted steel wool "fur" is next to impossible to remove. Roy

I recently bought bronze wool. There is also "synthetic steel wool" which I have not used but it comes in various degrees of courseness and resembles Scotch Brite.

Kent

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Thanks guys.

Yeah, I will pull everything and have a go at the finish at some point. The tops will likely get better, but they'll never be perfect. I'll ask for some advice here when I get to that point. There are a few issues that I need to figure out.

I'll post some pictures of my LST-2s at some point as well. I have had very, very good luck with a product called (no, this is not a joke) Rocky Mountain Lustre. I'm sure, whatever it is, it's very similar to a lot of other finish restorers on the market. But when you see the before and after pics of my LST-2s you'll appreciate how far gone the tops of the 9s are. And it's not just the finish - they're warped badly. Still, I'm sure a sand and finish will help a lot. One of these days, when I have some time. For now, I'm pretty happy to have them sounding good. I believe they're pretty much there, functionally.

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Hey fast eddie!

I like your story! I personnally restored a pair of 2ax. I got lots of good advices on this forum (special thanks to Kent And Roy). The tops of mine were in bad condition too. Here is a part of a previous post and a link to a few pics:

"Here is a picture of my boxes, before and after. I wet sanded by hand with 1000-grit sandpaper and tung oil, wiped the fine dust with an oiled cloth, then hand buffed wiith superfine (000) steelwool with tung oil again, then wiped and buffed the surface again with and oiled cloth first and then a dry cloth.

I'm satisfied with the result, I hope for the same with the other box."

http://tinyurl.com/869gfbw

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I would think you could sand AR cabinets with a 400 grit paper if you're hand sanding. Walnut is hard wood, it would take alot of sanding to get through it. Use a block to keep it flat and then switch to a finer paper after.

I will ask a friend of mine what they used in the furniture factory when I get a chance.

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