AR-4 series speakers

[WAROFMAN9]

Thank you Roy...rara..., Jkent,

Even know I ask some rudimentary questions about drivers, crossovers, test methods , possible replacement parts and effects of modification , I know wood walnut veneer when I see it.

Corners are good, veneer is walnut... not stained birch......, walnut. nice untouched cabinets. so what..., you guys believe all labels?

Did AR make "plastic" polyvinyl chloride coverings calling them Walnut Grain?

rick

[ra.ra]

When I looked at your last pic in post #36, I thought these speakers might be real wood veneer, which is exactly why I asked. Some time ago, I asked this very question (see link) to the general CSP community and never felt that it was fully answered to my satisfaction. I have seen pics of AR speakers with the "walnut grained" or "grained walnut finish" labels which I could swear were real wood veneer. I think I have never seen the finish which is birch veneer stained to look like walnut, and while the grain of these two wood species is quite different, I can imagine that this 'faux' finish might actually be relatively convincing. The simulated walnut vinyl contact paper will fool no one.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=6872&hl=%2Bwalnut+%2Bgrained

The pic below shows a pair of 4xa speakers currently for sale on a popular auction site, and these are clearly covered in the hideous vinyl. It's sometimes difficult to fully assess the details in digital pics, but even though you are the only one who can tell up close, I have to support your claim that these speakers have real wood veneer cabinets. With that, I am inclined to suggest a contrary approach to what JKent has offered - - - if the cabs are real wood and both woofers are good, find yourself a working pair of replacement tweets, update the crossover, spit-shine the cabinets, and enjoy a real pair of AR-4xa's.

I will continue to try to help you identify suitable tweeter replacements.

[RoyC]

so what..., you guys believe all labels?

Did AR make "plastic" polyvinyl chloride coverings calling them Walnut Grain?

rick

I believe what I have seen in my 35+ years of experience...and, yes, "Walnut Grain" has always meant a simulated wood vinyl veneer (on all brands, not just AR). If you say it is wood, then it is wood. It wouldn't be the first time AR threw us a curve ball. Attached is a photo of a label from an AR-3a, which according to the code number, was manufactured less than a year before your 4xa's. It states "Oiled Walnut", which denotes real wood veneer.

The bigger issue is whether or not you will be able to get these speakers up and running.

Roy

[ra.ra]

While writing my previous post, I was thinking about what Roy has voiced - - - "It wouldn't be the first time AR threw us a curve ball."

So, if we are to have some faith that the labels have meaning, it seems that "oiled walnut" is one finish; "walnut grained" is a second option; and "grained walnut finish" is yet a third. Perhaps these particular speakers were mis-labeled regarding the cabinet finish.

[RoyC]

While writing my previous post, I was thinking about what Roy has voiced - - - "It wouldn't be the first time AR threw us a curve ball."

So, if we are to have some faith that the labels have meaning, it seems that "oiled walnut" is one finish; "walnut grained" is a second option; and "grained walnut finish" is yet a third. Perhaps these particular speakers were mis-labeled regarding the cabinet finish.

Which begs the question...what would a "non-grained" walnut finish look like?

[ra.ra]

Didn't quite understand that last rhetorical query in post #55, but my intent was to suggest that AR possibly differentiated their two "not-really-walnut" finishes with subtly different terminolgy: one may have been "walnut grained" (vinyl?); and one may have been "grained walnut finish" (stained birch?), as exemplified by the pics in post #54. Again, I've never seen this stained birch finish, but I learned about its existence from this forum.

As for WAROFMAN9's speakers, they certainly look like real wood and only he knows best. My words of advice were meant to suggest to not be so quick to abandon restoration efforts and sell individual components by "parting out". If the cabs are good and the woofs are good, he only needs two new tweets and some refereshed x-o components in order to have a pair of restored AR-4xa's.

Many of you know this minutiae better than I, but it seems to me that any of these tweeter part numbers may prove to be a suitable 1-1/4" tweeter replacements for the 4xa's:

200005-0 (6, 7, 4xa)

200014-0 (MST-1)

200014-3 (7x, 17, 18)

210038-0 (93's, 94's 18's and others)

210034-0 (18B)

[WAROFMAN9]

Thanks to all the advice here, I do not intend to abandon this project..I purchased for 100$ because the cabinets were very fine and the drivers looked untouched.

May have been overly optimistic on this one, but you take your chances....

The tweeters will be sourced per this boards recommendations....

Ra.ra,s list certainly broadens the search.

[WAROFMAN9]

Removed two 561-7414...

[Robert_S]

Removed two 561-7414...

What that code tells you is where the units originate and date from (it's not the part number). The last four digits indicate the year and the week, in this case, (19)74, week 14.

See John's post, partially quoted below.

Early on, tweeters and woofers were marked with a date stamp, no problem here. Later both tweeters and woofers were marked with a seven digit code "ppp yymm" where ppp was the code for the AR plant; yy = last two digits of the year; mm = week of the year. The old Chicago Industrial paper/wax/oil capacitors were marked with a three digit code yww where the year was 196y -- by early seventies they were no longer used, so there is no confusion between, for example, 1966 and 1976. The Callins electrolytics also used the YYMM marking.

Robert_S

[WAROFMAN9]

What is up with the current Ebay listings with the strange (no driver Image) listings from Canada?

Are these legitimate?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Acoustic-Research-1-1-4-TWEETER-200014-3-AR-4-4x-4xa-6-7-15-16-17-18-25-/261178226283?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3ccf6f766b

[ra.ra]

Hey, I saw these auctions, too! Some of the text sounds authentic, but much of it is boilerplate gibberish. Without appropriate images, I remain very suspicious. Whenever interested in eBay items, I always send the seller some questions to feel it out a bit. I'd suggest making contact, but if the seller is unwilling to send you images privately, I'd back away. Do keep us posted as you pursue your 4xa restoration.

[michiganpat]

where did you check continuity of your drivers? at the end of the leads, or at the leads just off the cone? the break could be between the lead off the cone and the "extension" lead (where it's covered by tape)....you may be able to repair yours by carefully resoldering the leads....it's kind of a common failure mode for AR 2ax dome tweets, too

over on the audiokarma board a few years ago, RayW and Zilch found these tang bands to be a pretty decent drop in option for some AR-4x's with an adapter plate and felt ring around them, for what it's worth

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-822

[WAROFMAN9]

I asked a simple question to the Ebay seller -- about combining shipping for multiple tweeters...two days ago. no response..seems bogus.

Yes I checked them at several places : first sanded off coating at solid terminals , then after cutting wires and then examined near cone but am wary of scrapping off coating near cone...

I did get look at them under a mag 5x mag light as I was interested in the exact failure mode. Anybody successfully dismantle tweeters? Probably destroy them taking them apart....

[ra.ra]

to WAROFMAN9: Regarding how/why/what caused the death of your tweeters, I cannot help at all, but if you look at posts 1 and 2 in this thread, you'll see the same issue discussed regarding a rear-wired tweet for a 4x speaker. Also, I just wanted to show you some similarities in these 1-1/4" tweeters (all rear-wired). See pics attached.

The first two pics show four tweets as follows, and the third pic is just a close-up of the 05 label:

top L: 200005-0 (1983 service replacement)

top R: 200014-3 (1979 date)

bot L: 200034-0 (1983 date)

bot R: 200038-0 (1981 date)

On all of these, as Roy has already noted, the face plates and screw hole spacings are all identical, and they all have the solderless wire connection tabs on the rear - - no tinsel front wires on these specimens. Only the 05 tweet has the smaller magnet, but both the 05 and 14 versions have straight wire leads glued along the front of the cone; while the 34 and 38 versions have 'S' shape curved lead wires. The 34 and 38 models are later versions of this basic design, and I believe they utilize ferro fluid to more safely handle increased power.

Just a couple words about the lower left tweeter 34 - - it looks different for two reasons. First, I believe this tweet to be exactly like the 38 version, except that a new model number was created when the protective screen cover was added - - underneath the screen it looks exactly like the 38 but without the black surface paint. And secondly, this tweeter as shown has been fitted with a 4-1/2" dia. adapter ring which will allow it to fit the cut-out on a 4x speaker - - it will soon become part of my project to adapt a pair of 4x's into pseudo-4xa's.

Any of these tweeters should work well for your purpose. Hope this helps.

[Robert_S]

Any of these tweeters should work well for your purpose. Hope this helps.

With one caveat regarding the larger magnets of the later tweeters, and AR-4xa cabinets.

If the tweeter cut-out has the same diameter as on my AR-4xa (62mm), a consideration is that though the larger 60mm magnet will (just) fit through the opening, a modification is necessary to accommodate the protruding quick-fit terminals and wires.

Basically, a round file can be used to create two semi-circular notches at 0 and 180 (or 90 and 270) degrees.

To illustrate: the enclosed drawing shows the shape of the AR-18s cut-out, suitable for the 200038 and similar.

Robert_S

[ra.ra]

Excellent point, Robert_S.

Attached is a pic of how I accomplished this on an AR-6 cabinet when replacing with rear-wired tweeters. I think I used a small coping saw and some small flat or triangular files. You can see the sawdust on the cabinet bottom.

[WAROFMAN9]

I have purchased two allegedly new New Acoustic Research 1 1/4" TWEETERs 200014-3 from E-bay.

55$ /per piece with slightly reduced shipping charges from the Ebay handshake image seller.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261178226283&ssPageName=ADME:X:BOCOS:CA:1123#ht_940wt_1068

Hope they are new , that they are genuine and they are worth it.

Stand by / will report all.

rick

[WAROFMAN9]

The images that the seller sent convinced me...looks like NOS..?

Out of Canada eh...

[ra.ra]

Pics are too small to read the part no., but the images otherwise look good - - - I think you may be right about NOS - - - the large magenta sticker normally stipulates service replacement unit. Please send update after they arrive.

Did seller have any explanation for his handshake image?

[WAROFMAN9]

Yes, they (Juli) sent thumbnail images after the purchase and indicated that they had been "too busy" to post images in original listing.

I originally offered 40$/PC ,,,they rejected offer..came back with 50$ they counteroffered 55$...thought i would give it a shot as I really want to finish project.

Will update.. thanks for all the advice / help here.

[WAROFMAN9]

Strange (good) thing happened today..

The guy I bought the AR4xa,s from called and asked how the rebuild was going.

Told him that tweeters were on order and crossover parts were on the way.

He said he found another pair and would I pick them up (no charge)?

Of course I to headed there directly after work and sure enough; 2- 4x,s in plywood.

Hooked them up, took covers off / no tweet sound (understand that may be dirty switches).

Guess I have another pair to build / fool around with.

Will have to look up the by-pass / replace or clean 4x variable switch threads and crossover possibilities.

[ra.ra]

What a great story - - - I have been fortunate to pick up a few pairs of 4's for little cost, but never has anyone called me to pick up a pair for FREE! Generally, your new speakers look pretty good, but it's impossible to assess the condition of the cabinets (or grilles) from your pics. And yep, you now have a new project - - - but nonetheless, I'd suggest not getting too deep into your new speakers until you've pretty much wrapped up your 4xa project. Take notes while you're working, and progress pics are always invaluable for later reference - - - sometimes there are subtle differences that you do not observe at first glance.

The basic physical differences between the 4x and the 4xa are: 1) different tweeter; 2) (usually) variable potentiometer (4x) instead of switch (4xa) for tweeter control; and 3) different crossover (mostly the capacitor value). Not pertinent here, but later 4xa's also had a foam woofer. Your cloth woofers do look original and matching, so first order of business is diagnosis of the tweets. Disconnect them from the circuitry and individually test them with a battery and/or meter to ascertain whether they are functional.

Have you received the NOS 4xa tweets yet?

[WAROFMAN9]

Yes, received tweeters from Canadian bayseller. Looks good, well package / definitely replacement units.

Took some good advice and concentrated on ar4xa,s (the original pair).

Cabinet holes 2.420" dia.

200014-3 tweets 2.405" dia.

Used half round file to cleanup cabinet opening then hacksaw blade to make 180deg notches to allow posts on tweeter to fit.

Crossovers are complete and I am ready to stuff and assemble. First need to determine how to hook up tweeter leads; green is (coil) & yellow is (switch) ?

Trial & error or a definitive method.? I see no markers on the tweeter.

[ra.ra]

The tweeters look great - - possibly never used before. Baffleboard cut-outs look good, too. On your replacement tweeters, it's always been my understanding that the red dot on the part number sticker is nearest the positive terminal, which should be the yellow wire going to the switch. Attached are three different references for the 4xa crossover. You're in the home stretch now.

[ra.ra]

Oops, sorry. I meant to post this schematic sketch as the third image.