AR LST road trip....

[xmas111]

ra ra.......thank you very much for your kind words. I like to share my projects with other people who share the same interests in hopes it may help them out. I get alot of my ideas from others who also like to share their ideas. Not all my ideas are original by any means. For instant in my AR 3a restoration I have to thank JKent for a lot of good ideas that helped me out.

I still feel somewhat bad about getting these knowing you were so close to them.

I truly enjoy fixing, rebuilding...and sometimes breaking things! Sometimes I think I go to far but then again how far is to far.

As for the LST's I've finished refinishing the cabs. Not a lot of wood on these so it's a lot less time consuming than 3a's.

I used the Howards Restore and Feed & Wax. The only thing I'm not to crazy about with Howards is it doesn't give the nice sheen the AR's usually have. Maybe I'm not putting enough of the Feed & Wax on. I might try another coating in a few days and see what happens.

I got lazy and didn't want to remove all the tweets and mids while refinihing the cabs, it would take a considerable amount of time to do and there's always the chance of causing damage to one or more of them. I had some thick cardboard and was able to cut out pieces the same size as the grills and put them in place to keep out all the saw dust. I was afraid of causing damage if I had to vacuum them afterwards. Had to laugh after putting the cardboard in place... they actually looked pretty good!

Reinstalled the woofers and gave them a test run...... I hooked them up to a Heathkit AA-15 amp. The LST's were just sitting on the floor up in my workroom and the sound was very impressive! Can't wait to bring them down stair and hook them up to some real power.

I have to order some new grills from Vintage-AR (Larry) when he returns from vacation and opens up his ebay store. I think these are going to look real nice with the new grills.

Attached some pics of the speakers with the cabs refinished and the woofers installed. Also a pic of the speakers with the cardboard installed....just for laughs!

John

[JKent]

Well, if I was helpful, that's high praise. Your work is beautifully neat and precise.

Re: Howards. Rather than going straight to the Feed n Wax, try applying several coats of Watco Danish Oil. OR use Minwax Antique Oil for more sheen. I apply several coats of Antique Oil to my radio cabinets and if enough is used, and the final coats are left wet, the result will be quite glossy. Too glossy? After it's thoroughly dry buff lightly with super fine steel wool.

Do you have the grilles? If so, why not remove the ugly cloth and replace it yourself with some of the beautiful Irish Linen from 1-2-3 Stitch. I guarantee it's nicer than the stuff Vintage AR uses.

Kent

[ar_pro]

Very, very nice.

The LST has such a distinctive cabinet, with its form following the function of the multiple driver arrangement - it's a genuine classic.

Just my two cents, but the finish looks pretty accurate to the original just the way it is, with a matte/satin appearance.

[ra.ra]

Several of the voices speaking out in this thread have far more experience than I, but I must concur with the latest comments from JKent and ar_pro. Your cabs are looking pretty good already, and one of the beauties of an oil/wax finish is that you can often continue to work and re-work the finish, within reason, until you get the color and sheen that you desire. Small, light, baby steps will get you there, but it is far, far more difficult to reverse a heavy-handed initial application of stain or tinted oil. I would agree that an overly glossy finish is not what you want - - I always think it detracts from the natural beauty of the walnut - - but several coats of oil followed by buffing may slowly build up the sheen to an intermediate level. An even more delicate process involves thinning the oil with mineral spirits for lighter applications.

For many years, I have used Watco and Formby's products on a variety of wood projects, but I must say that I am really thrilled with the process and results from working with Howard's RAF. I don't immediately recall its chemical solvent, and I'm sure it has its own level of toxicity, but it truly is a miracle product and it seems to completely off-gas in not too many hours.

I've not yet tried Feed'n'Wax, only b/c like JKent, I resort to my tried and true Watco to feed the veneer, and sometimes the particular flitch might even need a little bit of additional coloring. Speaking of which, there's a guy on either this site or AK (Eunomanians, I think he's called), who adds a step of color stain in refinishing his fine collection of classic AR's. This is an approach I am about to try, b/c the walnut veneer on my 2ax's is not nearly as warm and alive as that on my 4x and 6 cabinets. He and I both seem to like the walnut best when it has a hint of reddish glow. I think he might use a bit of Minwax Mahogany, but that stain is so intense it almost scares me, and I am experimenting with MinWax Red Chestnut. Besides, botanically speaking, I believe chestnut is a first cousin of walnut.

As for grille cloth, I know it's gonna be difficult to beat the look of that acoustically transparent 1-2-3 cardboard, but having seen your level of restoration skill, the most satisfying outcome will be if you build your own. Applying the fabric cannot be too difficult, and you are more than capable of cutting some new tempered Masonite frames if you need to.

[ra.ra]

Oops, forgot to mention this.

I know other people often make this point but it bears worth noting again. When refinishing cabinets, unless you have all of the drivers pulled, or fully and carefully protected, I'd strongly recommend avoiding steel wool altogether and instead use only non-magnetic bronze wool. Not every hardware or home store carries bronze wool, but I really do not like it when those potentially rusting fibers (from steel wool) become magnetically attracted to my tweeter cones and dust caps. Working on a pair of primo LST's, it's worth a couple bucks extra.

[JKent]

ra.ra: regarding the reddish cast on AR speakers--I like that too, and one thing I've tried is Mahogany RAF. It's not nearly as intense as stain. I keep Neutral, Golden Oak, Walnut and Dark Walnut on hand, especially for my KLH Model EIght radio restorations.

http://www.howardpro...or-a-finish.php

Good point re the bronze wool. I've been meaning to get some.

Kent

[ra.ra]

This link shows the exact product I have been fortunate enough to find locally at one particular hardware store - - - Rhodes American bronze wool (fine).

http://www.steelwool...Bronze_Wool.htm

JKent makes a great point about options for coloring - not only does Howard's come in several flavors, but I now see that Watco is also offering their famous Danish Oil with a Mahogany (can says "NEW COLOR!") tint.

http://www.rustoleum...duct.asp?pid=46

Finally, I believe this may be the thread where I bought into the notion to alter the tint to one's preference. This guy has since added AR-6's and 7's to his collection, and you'll see pics of his newly re-finished 4x's near the bottom of this post. Sometimes hard to tell in online pics, but these appear a bit glossy to me (might be the flash?), but he has a gorgeous collection.

http://audiokarma.or...ead.php?t=78848

[xmas111]

Thanks guys for the info on the refinishing of the cabinets.

I guess my question now is since I've already applied the Feed n' Wax can I put now apply oil over it?

Not to worry about because the cabinets do look pretty good now....but I'd like to get a bit more sheen on them.

I've hooked them up to my kitchen system, (don't laugh but that's where I had the LST-2's). I'm powering them with an Yaqin 100B tube amp. It only puts out 65 watts per channel in the ultra linear mode but surprisingly they crank pretty good! I ultimately plan on using one of my Carver TFM-45 amps which puts out almost 500 watts per channel, they should really crank then. But I'm still careful enough and realize playing to loud could cause any amp to start clipping and ......poof there goes some tweeters!

I'm also going to take both your advice and redo the grills myself. I think JKent is right that I could probably do better finding something on my own, plus the fact that "Vintage AR" just raised the price from $99.00 for a set to $199.00 a set. I think that's waaaaaay to much for them!

Plan on taking one of my LST-2 grills (they look very nice just like the orginal AR's) with me to Jo-ann's fabrics and see if I can match something up.

The only problem I forsee is getting my hands on a pneumatic stapler. There's no way a regular hand held stapler will touch the masonite, that stuff is like a rock.

I wonder if making new grills out of Luan of standard 1/4" plywood would work, It would certainly be easier to staple into than masonite. Just not sure if it would be to flexible and not keep it's shape.

Thanks for your help guys, really appreciated!

By the way, I been using a Squeezebox Touch with an Ipad as a remote. Nice stuff and works great!

Here's a pics of the LST's setup in the kitchen. Hard to get a good pic with the speakers all black surface.

[JKent]

If you email Howard's they will get back to you right away and they are very helpful. So you could ask them about whether you can apply oil over the wax (I doubt it), or how to remove the wax or how to enhance the sheen.

I tried JoAnn's once or twice and was not successful. YMMV. But the PERFECT replacement for the AR3a is Wichelt linen, 18 ct in "lambswool" from 1-2-3 Stitch. If the LST used the same grille cloth, here it is: http://www.123stitch...pl?item=59-135X It comes in various sizes so search for the dimensions that are appropriate. See pages 17-18 here: http://www.classicsp...-3a_full_pd.pdf

I don't know how thick the masonite is. If it is 1/4" you can use an electric stapler with stainless steel or Monel staples. Refer to the AR3a restoration manual. If the masonite is only 1/8", you can glue some thin strips of wood around the perimeter on the back. "Screen molding" works well. But check the depth of where the panels fit to be sure the resulting grille won't stick out. If you apply the wood strips you can use 3/8" staples.

Another method that works: If you have 1/8" masonite panels and can't put the extra wood on the back you can glue the fabric on with Aleene's Tacky Glue. You can check page 7 of my KLH Eight restoration booklet http://www.classicsp...h-model-eig.pdf It also has a link to the Human Speakers page that describes applying grille cloth with glue. I'll attach a photo of some OLAs I just replaced the cloth on. I used the wood strips and electric stapler method.

You should try to do a neat job (as you always do) but it does not have to be perfectly taut. After all is finished, use a spray bottle to spritz water on the linen, then dry it with a hair dryer. It will shrink to a perfect fit.

Kent

[ar_pro]

Would you have any photos showing the back of the middle grille panel with the original cloth still attached?

The Squeezebox is a revelation - I used a Duet for a couple of years, and then replaced it in the main system with a Transporter.

The SqueezePad app for the iPad makes it so very easy to control music throughout the house on both the Duet & Transporter, as well as a Squeezebox Radio in the kitchen, and on the iPad, itself. All of our music is on a 4 Terabyte server, with most everything stored as WAV, and some FLAC files, and it's all just a few taps away.

[michiganpat]

recovering some smaller advent grilles, the best choice I found for attachment was to use a hot glue gun.you get fast set up so you can stretch the fabric. you can't find staples short enough to use in the original grilles.

[xmas111]

I called Howards and talked with a very nice guy named Eric. He recommed I don't put anything over the Feed n' Wax for a couple months or more. He also said I could put more Feed n' Wax every coupe weeks and that will bring up the sheen. So I think I'll go that route and see what happens.

Also stopped at Joanns Fabrics on the way home to look for speaker grill cloth but had no luck.

I've noticed Carlspeak sells grill fabric, maybe I'll give him a call and see what he has. Has anybody use his fabric?

Else I'll go with the 18 Ct. Lambswool Linen from 1-2-3 Stitch. Looks a little dark on their web page but I'm sure it fine.

The masonite measures about .200" thick which is ~13/64". Looking at the original grills from the LST's it looks like they used regular staples to fasten the grill cloth. I tried to staple into the masonite with a regular stapler and it worked pretty good to my surprise. Think I'll be able to fasten the new cloth with a regular stapler. Also attached a pic for ar_pro of the back of the original middle grill panel.

JKent.....you did a fantantic job putting together the KLH Eight restoration booklet. It was a very interesting and informative read!

I'm really liking the sound of the LST's! Very impressive.

John

[JKent]

John:

Photos are tough for assessing color. PM me with your snail mail address and I'll send you a swatch of the "lambswool" 18 CT from 1-2-3 Stitch.

Kent

[xmas111]

JKent,

I've tried to PM you before but it keeps telling me you can't accept any new messages...

John

[RoyC]

Also stopped at Joanns Fabrics on the way home to look for speaker grill cloth but had no luck.

Else I'll go with the 18 Ct. Lambswool Linen from 1-2-3 Stitch. Looks a little dark on their web page but I'm sure it fine.

John

John,

If authenticty is the goal, there is nothing better than the Lambswool linen. It isn't dark at all.

See attached photo comparing Lambswool with cloth taken from an early 70's AR-3a grille. Lambswool is on the left.

Roy

[xmas111]

John,

If authenticty is the goal, there is nothing better than the Lambswool linen. It isn't dark at all.

See attached photo comparing Lambswool with cloth taken from an early 70's AR-3a grille. Lambswool is on the left.

Roy

Ok thanks Roy. Looks very good, I'll go with the Lambswool.

John

[xmas111]

Looks like another project has come to a happy ending!

Received the grill cloth yesterday, 18ct. Lambswool Linen from 1-2-3 Sitch and I'm very happy with it. It looks excatly like the original cloth that was on the LST's when I bought them... without all the years of grim and who knows what else has built on it.

I was able to staple the cloth to the masonite with a regular stapler, had to pull a lot of them out and redo them but overall it worked out pretty good. My damn plam is sore as hell though from all the pounding on the stapler!

So again I'd like to thank everyone here who helped me out on this project....Jkent, ra.ra, RoyC, etc.... without you guys I'd never finish these project in a professional matter and have these speakers back up to AR stanards....

I have enough of the cloth left over to do two AR 3a or smaller speakers. The only thing is you'd have to cut the cloth 90º for one of the speakers. I don't think it won't make any difference the cloth seems to be symmetrical in it's weave pattern. So if anyone is interested let me know, I'll let it go for $15.00 which would include S&H.

Here's a few pictures of the finished LST's and a picture of the new and old cloth side by side, (the old cloth is the darker cloth on the right).

Now I'm sitting back listening to these wonderful babies!

John

[RoyC]

Looks like another project has come to a happy ending!

Received the grill cloth yesterday, 18ct. Lambswool Linen from 1-2-3 Sitch and I'm very happy with it. It looks excatly like the original cloth that was on the LST's when I bought them... without all the years of grim and who knows what else has built on it.

I was able to staple the cloth to the masonite with a regular stapler, had to pull a lot of them out and redo them but overall it worked out pretty good. My damn plam is sore as hell though from all the pounding on the stapler!

So again I'd like to thank everyone here who helped me out on this project....Jkent, ra.ra, RoyC, etc.... without you guys I'd never finish these project in a professional matter and have these speakers back up to AR stanards....

I have enough of the cloth left over to do two AR 3a or smaller speakers. The only thing is you'd have to cut the cloth 90º for one of the speakers. I don't think it won't make any difference the cloth seems to be symmetrical in it's weave pattern. So if anyone is interested let me know, I'll let it go for $15.00 which would include S&H.

Here's a few pictures of the finished LST's and a picture of the new and old cloth side by side, (the old cloth is the darker cloth on the right).

Now I'm sitting back listening to these wonderful babies!

John

Beautiful work, John!

I've been meaning to compliment you on your excellent AR-XA restoration guide as well. It came in very handy during a recent XA restoration.

I would be happy to take the extra cloth off your hands. PM sent.

Roy

[JKent]

Told ya you'd like that linen!

The speakers look absolutely fantastic. Like new!

Another great job!

Kent

[ra.ra]

Fantastic job all around - - - those LST's look brand new - - - in fact, your dining room is beginning to look like an AR dealer showroom circa 1973.

Also, I'm very pleased to see you're giving your speakers a workout with John Coltrane.

Great work!

[xmas111]

Thanks guys. It was a real joy refurbishing these things.

Roy, glad the turntable restoration was a help to you and thanks.

Kent, you were absolutely correct about the cloth. I was originally thinking I wanted something a little "whiter" in color but I love the color and style of this stuff. I'm thinking they look exactly like original LST's!

ra.ra, I don't think I can put anymore speakers in the kitchen.....I won't have any room to eat!

The extra grill cloth I had is spoken for.

John

[rjr513]

They look like you just pulled them out of the factory boxes,Great work John.

[JKent]

Just to give credit where credit is due: The 1-2-3 Stitch Wichelt "lambswool" linen recommendation came from the AR3a restoration guide. Roy C and John O'Hanlon had been hunting for a perfect replacement and found that cloth. For a while they had recommended CharlesCraft "tea" Irish Linen, available from Michael's at a very reasonable price (especially with a coupon) but the CharlesCraft has changed dramatically and no longer looks like the original AR cloth. I still use it sometimes when I want a vintage "look" at lower cost but the Wichelt linen you ordered is by FAR the nicest. It has a nice weight, yet is acoustically very transparent.

btw--I keep "planning" to restore my AR TT and, like Roy, will refer to your guide. I especially like the addition of the RCA jacks on back and the better power cord, through a grommet. My top plate is messed up and I'll have to decide whether to paint it or possibly spray it with truck bed liner. Any ideas?

Kent

[xmas111]

Kent,

Yup, it was the AR 3a restoration Guide that recommends the 1-2-3 Stitch Wichelt "lambswool" linen but you pushed me towards it.

Looks like I got the last of it too, 1-2-3 Stitch is out of stock at the moment.....good thing they had it in stock when I bought or I would of gone for something else and never realized how good Wichelt "lambswool" linen is!

As for the TT I have two that I have to restore and one of them is the same as yours with the top plate pretty messed up. Not sure how I'm going to handle it yet. But more than likely I'll end up sanding it or blast cleaning down to the bare metal and paint it. I sure you've seen some of the wonderful jobs others have done painting it.

Not looking forward to that job.... a painter I'm not!

Anyway, in my opinion I think it will be best to get the top plate down to bare metal then paint or whatever.

Having the RCA jacks on the back really make it easy to hook it up with some nice RCA cables.

I've seen some people put a grounding terminal on the back too but I don't think it's necessary since the ground wire on the RCA cables go to the same ground on the pre amp or receiver as the separate grounding wire would.

That little bushing I used to pass the power cord though was made from a "BI-folding door Top Pivot Guide"....don't laugh...sometimes you have to use what you have laying around.

I think I bought at Home Depot for a Bi-folding door but never needed to use it.

I attached a pic of it.

Cut it flush to the collar then sand it smooth. Then cut it to the thickness of the base. It has ribs on the OD so it gives a nice press fit into the base. Drill it out so the cord fits nice and snug. That's it!

Of course you can use anything you have laying around...

John

[xmas111]

Well guys the fun is OVER!!!

I finally hooked up the LST's to one of my Carver TFM-45's and was listening to some tunes when all of a sudden I heard a pop!

Turns out one of the woofers is dead! I took it out and measured the resistance and got about 1 1/2 Ω. No movement of the cone either.

Excuse my langauge...but son of a bitch...I knew it was to good to be ture finally getting the things and hoping for years of enjoyment out of them.

I certainly wasn't cranking them...can't believe it happen!

Not sure what my next step will be. Send it out for repair or try and rebuild it myself????? I've never reconed a speaker before and I'm not even sure where you could get a cone for one of these.

Damn.....damn.....damn.....

John