getting discouraged

[troppo]

Troppo here;

It's been two months now since I bought a pair of 2-ax's as a project. Re-foaming the woofers and a cabinet re-finish was what I was looking at. Now, around $1000.00 or so later the two speakers are still completly disassembled and I am having a heck of a time re-doing the crossover board et all. My solder joints are sloppy and brittle, nothing is going together the way that it should. I'm going to try again today but is all of this worth it?

And what if there is a mistake somewhere along the process and the re-build fails, I'll just have a bunch of parts to sell.

Anybody hit a wall like this??

[JKent]

That's a shame. Sounds like you've reched the point of diminishing returns. A grand is too much for those speakers. But since you've got in that deep, why not finish the project?

Soldering takes a good pencil type iron and some practice. There are tutorials on the web if you google "how to solder". The main thing is heat the joint--not the solder. When the joint is hot enough the solder will flow into it. You can also use crimp connectors and wire nuts for many or all of the connections. Attached is a photo of a 2ax crossover with NO solder joints.

Maybe you should walk away from the project for a couple of days. Don't work on it while you are frustrated.

How has the rest gone? Did the refoam project go well? Are the cabinets now in good shape? What was your decision on tweeters and pots?

If all else fails, you may be able to pry the masonite boards that hold the crossover loose and send them to someone to rebuild them for you. Sometimes the boards come out easily but other times they break. Not a HUGE deal but annoying.

Email me if you really get stuck and maybe I can help.

Kent

[dynaco_dan]

Troppo here;

It's been two months now since I bought a pair of 2-ax's as a project. Re-foaming the woofers and a cabinet re-finish was what I was looking at. Now, around $1000.00 or so later the two speakers are still completly disassembled and I am having a heck of a time re-doing the crossover board et all. My solder joints are sloppy and brittle, nothing is going together the way that it should. I'm going to try again today but is all of this worth it?

And what if there is a mistake somewhere along the process and the re-build fails, I'll just have a bunch of parts to sell.

Anybody hit a wall like this??

Hi there

Can you please try to show us a breakdown of your costs, so that we may better understand and learn from your experience.

[soundminded]

Troppo here;

It's been two months now since I bought a pair of 2-ax's as a project. Re-foaming the woofers and a cabinet re-finish was what I was looking at. Now, around $1000.00 or so later the two speakers are still completly disassembled and I am having a heck of a time re-doing the crossover board et all. My solder joints are sloppy and brittle, nothing is going together the way that it should. I'm going to try again today but is all of this worth it?

And what if there is a mistake somewhere along the process and the re-build fails, I'll just have a bunch of parts to sell.

Anybody hit a wall like this??

AR2ax strikes me as one of the easiest speakers to rebuild. The main issue, the condition and finish of the cabinets aside is usually the tweeters. If they are in good shape the speakers can usually be restored to function probably close to as new. I didn't want to be on a learning curve refoaming mine so I paid a pro and it cost only a little more than had I bought the kits and did it myself, well under $100 for the pair of woofers, probably not much over $50. I used cheap NPC caps from Parts express that cost under $2 per enclosure for the crossover network. This is the same type of capacitor that was used in the original manufacture of the speakers and I find nothing wrong with them, I don't go in for exotics. The pots were a little tricky at first to disassemble and clean but once I got the hang of it there isn't really any problem. You just have to be careful not to damage them and to remember how they came apart so that you can reassemble them the same way. Getting the woofers out of my AR2as was tough, the putty had turned to glue and it took several hours after fashioning a tool to scrape it out bit by bit. The AR2axs were much easier. I used Parts express double sided foam tape to reseal them to the wood, I also used that on my AR9s too. Very cheap, probably no more than $5 or $10 for a long roll. You do have to know how to solder but it is not a hard skill to learn. Practice on spare wire to acquire the skill first if you aren't accostomed to it. You also have to be careful not to damage the tweeters with heat. You need the right irons for the job and IMO a small iron is satisfactory for tweeters. I use Radio Shack soldering guns and irons. I've posted about that and how to solder elsewhere.

The design of the crossover network could not be simpler but the drawing in the library could not be more confusing if they tried. It is an awful drawing and I had to redraw it myself to see it. Sorry I can't post it, I threw it away a long time ago. Wiring this speaker correctly like any multiway speaker is very critical. Errors in phasig will cause the speakers to perform poorly. Much worse is an error in omitting or miswiring a capacitor. This can lead to instant damage to the midrange and/or tweeter. An error can also result in damage to your amplifier. Have someone who knows what they are doing check your work before you reassemble and connect it. When you do, start with the volume at very low level and turn the bass control if you have one all the way down. This will minimize the risk of damage if there is an error. Don't turn either up until you are sure you have it right. Good Luck.

[DON]

Troppo here;

It's been two months now since I bought a pair of 2-ax's as a project. Re-foaming the woofers and a cabinet re-finish was what I was looking at. Now, around $1000.00 or so later the two speakers are still completly disassembled and I am having a heck of a time re-doing the crossover board et all. My solder joints are sloppy and brittle, nothing is going together the way that it should. I'm going to try again today but is all of this worth it?

And what if there is a mistake somewhere along the process and the re-build fails, I'll just have a bunch of parts to sell.

Anybody hit a wall like this??

I've been right where you are but with far less money invested. The most difficult part I can see is soldering the x over while it's still in the cabinet. I have had a lot of problems with soldering.......not so much the actual soldering as getting the iron conditioned so that the heat transfer is consistent. I went thru 2 irons and finally the third one worked. The crossovers can be easily removed and soldering will be much easier and you can see what you're doing. I used a broad sharp putty knife and worked it under the edge of the x over board and ever so gently continued to work it around the edges. Steady pressure on the knife instead of sudden rough movements should get the board out with very little damage. Redoing speakers for the first time is no picnic as some may tell you but there are more knowledgeable and helpful people here than anywhere else and they are eager to help you.

Ask lots of questions and if you can post photos.

[ar_pro]

$1000 is a LOT of money to have spent on a 2ax restoration, but if done correctly, you'll certainly have a thousand bux worth of sound, and they are attractive, modern-looking cabinets.

The previous suggestion to remove the crossover before rebuilding is a good one - it will be much easier to solder, and you can double-check your work against the other board.

I do hope you haven't taken both boards apart, already!

[soundminded]

One trick to replacing crossover capacitors is to cut the old cap out as close to the body of the cap as possible and solder the new cap to the wire that's left from the old one. It may not look as pretty and neat as removing the entire crossover board but it works every bit as well. Just be sure that you've taped up any bare wires and secured the new caps so they don't float around or short out. This usually allows you to leave the board in place. In some speakers it's tight working through the woofer opening but this one wasn't too bad. Sorry I forgot to mention that. Removing the old board can be a PITA if it's glued to the enclosure.

[DON]

One trick to replacing crossover capacitors is to cut the old cap out as close to the body of the cap as possible and solder the new cap to the wire that's left from the old one. It may not look as pretty and neat as removing the entire crossover board but it works every bit as well. Just be sure that you've taped up any bare wires and secured the new caps so they don't float around or short out. This usually allows you to leave the board in place. In some speakers it's tight working through the woofer opening but this one wasn't too bad. Sorry I forgot to mention that. Removing the old board can be a PITA if it's glued to the enclosure.

Breaking the glue was easy. The staples were harder. Took about 20 minutes or so to get the first one out and a little less on the second one. Well worth the effort for me. I have very old eyes.....a little over 7 decades If you can see the crossover and wire joints it may not be worth it.

[Pete B]

This is a fairly good video that covers soldering big connections:

That iron is a bit high on wattage (40W) so you have to move fast if you

were to use one like that. I have used that one many years ago before

I had a temperature controlled iron. I'd probably suggest this 25W

unit as a minimum for soldering these big connections for those who do

not want to spend the money on the much more expensive temp controlled

irons:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3086618&filterName=Brand&filterValue=Weller

Here is the larger one if you think you need it:

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Power-Tools-Torches-Soldering-Irons-Solder/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbudi/R-100391613/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Several have mentioned that this iron is quite the bargain but I'm not

sure how powerful it is. Perhaps someone can look into it:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=374-100

Make sure the items to be soldered are clean and to tin the tip and wet it

so that a small amount of solder flows first to promote heat flow into the

joint.

[troppo]

Troppo here,again;

First, sorry about whinin' in my last post. A little frustration there about some of the stumbles, most having to do with soldering. And here is how I have solved that particular problem (I think). I stopped at Radio Shack and discussed my difficulties with the Radio guy who said, "Oh Yeah, I've seen that before. Bad Iron, and bad tip contact, Causes uneven heat dist. to the joints." $17.00 later, new Radio Shack Iron, new 60/40 solder and two new tips I gave it another go with COMPLETE SUCCESS!! HONEST! I've soldered up the pots and caps, next the new tweets, re-pack and off we go.

I do appreciate the encouragement from the AR's out there. Thanks all.

Someone asked me how I got into this project to $1,000.00. I wondered about that myself so here goes.

I paid around $250.00 for a pair of either "classic" or "vintage" (One or the other) AR-2ax with a few scuffs. All that they need is a re-foam and a re-finish and there you go. I live out here in the country so there is, will always be, shipping. AR2ax=big and heavy. Anybody who eBay's MUST understand shipping cost, sellers make a living on shipping cost.Negotiate or figure your own shipping. I think that I put out about $65.00.

Re-foam kits, (two) just in case, about $60.00. (Plus Shipping)

One tweeter was collapsed so I bought two new modified AVI's from vinatge AR, about $160. All set to go, (I'm glad he's there but Albany is a long way off.)

New board and Grill Cloth, $72. They look great, nothing's too good.

Tool and supplies. OK, maybe this should not be counted into the cost of the speakers, especially the $140.00 Dremel. But I bought new knives, blades, adhesives, adhesive remover, five rolls of 18 guage wire, (plus matching color electrical tape. Nice touch.) various wood care products, and new fibreglass. Pretty darned close to a grand. It all adds up.

Troppo

[JKent]

I understand the whining. Been there myself. Good thing your local RS guy knew how to help you. Many don't.

btw--You DID put in new caps as part of that investment, right?

Glad to hear things are working out. For your next project you'll learn about where to save money. Vintage AR is an honest and knowledgeable seller but he's in business to make money. For example, you can do the tweeters for about $60 a pair yourself. And if those $250 speakers had a bad tweeter, try contacting the seller for a partial refund.

But it's great to know you've had complete success. When they're all done and you can sit back and enjoy some tunes, post a photo or 2.

Kent

[dynaco_dan]

Troppo here,again;

I do appreciate the encouragement from the AR's out there. Thanks all.

Someone asked me how I got into this project to $1,000.00. I wondered about that myself so here goes.

I paid around $250.00 for a pair of either "classic" or "vintage" (One or the other) AR-2ax with a few scuffs. All that they need is a re-foam and a re-finish and there you go. I live out here in the country so there is, will always be, shipping. AR2ax=big and heavy. Anybody who eBay's MUST understand shipping cost, sellers make a living on shipping cost.Negotiate or figure your own shipping. I think that I put out about $65.00.

Re-foam kits, (two) just in case, about $60.00. (Plus Shipping)

One tweeter was collapsed so I bought two new modified AVI's from vinatge AR, about $160. All set to go, (I'm glad he's there but Albany is a long way off.)

New board and Grill Cloth, $72. They look great, nothing's too good.

Tool and supplies. OK, maybe this should not be counted into the cost of the speakers, especially the $140.00 Dremel. But I bought new knives, blades, adhesives, adhesive remover, five rolls of 18 guage wire, (plus matching color electrical tape. Nice touch.) various wood care products, and new fibreglass. Pretty darned close to a grand. It all adds up.

Troppo

Hi again

Thanks for telling us about your adventure.

It is amazing how a very well written up an ebuy item is, in reality it's in poor condition and at times un-tested.

Packaging the item properly and telling the whole truthful story seems to be lacking at times.

In a large number of my purchases items were damaged prior to or in transit.

One particular seller shipped me a pair of speakers which were a write off, he replaced them with equal speakers at no additional cost to me.

Because of my one positive experience, I would suggest if the speakers that you bought were performing less than advertised, request a price adjustment.

I wish you a happy and positive dialog with that seller.

[oldguide]

This is kind of tragic in that YOU DON"T NEED TO SOLDER! I have soldered everything including fun and tiny coated tone arms wires and computer PC boards, so I have experience soldering, but it is too bad that no one suggested that you do not need to solder anything on a speaker rebuild. You can find crimp connectors that are the right size for the speaker terminals and pots and you can use wire nuts for the other connections. I will tin the ends of my wires because that makes for a better connection and sometimes solder the terminal connectors, but I like the flexibility of being able to remove or change any wire in the setup.

[dynaco_dan]

This is kind of tragic in that YOU DON"T NEED TO SOLDER! I have soldered everything including fun and tiny coated tone arms wires and computer PC boards, so I have experience soldering, but it is too bad that no one suggested that you do not need to solder anything on a speaker rebuild. You can find crimp connectors that are the right size for the speaker terminals and pots and you can use wire nuts for the other connections. I will tin the ends of my wires because that makes for a better connection and sometimes solder the terminal connectors, but I like the flexibility of being able to remove or change any wire in the setup.

Hi there

I would like to comment but I feel my advice will not be too well received.

[JKent]

it is too bad that no one suggested that you do not need to solder anything on a speaker rebuild.

Hey Guide. See Post #2!

Kent

[rrcrain]

Hi there

I would like to comment but I feel my advice will not be too well received.

I'll stick my neck out instead. I really prefer solder joints when done right over crimp connections any day of the week. Less breakage, oxidation and a longer life on the connection overall.

[soundminded]

This is kind of tragic in that YOU DON"T NEED TO SOLDER! I have soldered everything including fun and tiny coated tone arms wires and computer PC boards, so I have experience soldering, but it is too bad that no one suggested that you do not need to solder anything on a speaker rebuild. You can find crimp connectors that are the right size for the speaker terminals and pots and you can use wire nuts for the other connections. I will tin the ends of my wires because that makes for a better connection and sometimes solder the terminal connectors, but I like the flexibility of being able to remove or change any wire in the setup.

I've yet to see an aluminum crimp connector on a speaker that would accept them fail. However, when splicing wires, there's an old term called "The Eisenberg Effect" which I think was coined by Norman Eisenberg who wrote for High Fidelity Magazine many decades ago. What seem like perfectly good connections that have proven reliable over many years, wire spices, aluminum RCA phono jacks and plugs suddenly mysteriously become noisy, intermittent, or fail altogether. This is probably due to oxidation and other insulating barriers to the flow of current that build up on wires and connectors over time resulting from chemical reactions or deposits of microscopic oil droplets suspended in the air....from cooking for example. Gold of course doesn't have the oxidation problem, it is virtually chemically inert (That's its one advantage reliability, not lower initial contact resistance IMO.) Amazing how many gold plated input jacks on the back of amplifiers are connected to cheap aluminum rotary switches and low cost pots that eventually become noisy. The remedy and prevention for this phenomenon for wire splices and connections is a good solder joint. I was reminded of this just today with a bad speaker connection splice using a standard electrical twist on wire nut. They're OK for temporary connections but in the long run are not as reliable for signal connections as they are for power distribution. A plated terminal barrier strip is a good mechanical alternative however. They can be used with crimp on spade lugs too.

[JKent]

Differences of opinion abound. I've never heard of the wire nuts (used in all KLH speakers) failing. And years ago a friend in aerospace industry told me Sta-Kon crimps were required because of their superiority to any other fastening/conducting method.

YMMV

Kent

[RoyC]

In 30+ years of repairing and restoring speakers, I have never seen an issue resulting from non-solder crossover connections. In fact, KLH speakers are full of decades old wire nuts, but the only crossover issues are bad capacitors, and some corroded switches. Perhaps the tinned crossover wire (today's "marine" wire) used by AR and KLH was beneficial...which incidentally, was seldom larger than 20ga. Push-on driver connections have also been used for decades, and are very seldom a problem unless they become loose or fall off.

I usually solder connections when convenient...I just don't lose any sleep if I don't. Push-on, crimped, and wire nut connections will likely outlive most contributors to this forum.

Roy

[genek]

My usual method is to tin the wires, connect them with wire nuts until I'm sure the wiring is correct, then remove the nuts and hit the twisted-together wires with a soldering gun to melt the tinning together. In 20 years or so, I haven't had a connection fail on me yet.

[oldguide]

Kent,

I deeply apologize for missing your quote, blame it on an addled brain.

Also it is embarassing because I was getting ready to write you a thank you for the great work you have done with those of us rebuilding AR2s

As for soldering, as someone who has wired a few residential/commercial locations, what is interesting is how the code has changed. Many (maybe add another many) years ago soldering was used in a few electrical connections, but now is almost universally prohibited.

The only place I routinely use soldering is on circuit boards (computers, amps, etc.) because that is the way they are designed--although I notice some manufacturers are even getting away from that now for some connections. One that will drive you up the wall is soldering Cardas tonearm wire, which is specially coated and stranded 33 gauge wire.

[JKent]

hey--I was just rattlin' yer cage. If I had to apologize for every time I missed and/or forgot something, that's all I'd be doing all day!

Kent