AR-3's or not?

[Sax-son]

The story begins when I purchased these speakers from a local thrift store. They had been painted with thick white semi gloss house paint. The labels on the back panel clearly stated AR-3. The drivers looked extremely vintage so I did not give it much thought. After a day of stripping and wiping down with Denatured alcohol, I was fairly successful in bringing back the walnut cabinets. I also wanted to get new speaker grill and badge as the grills that came with the speakers look after market and not of the same era. Larry from Vintage AR sent me new grills specified for the AR-3 cabinets. However, once I tried to install them, I found that they were way too small for the cabinet inner lip. Larry had me send him some pictures of what we were dealing with, and even he was perplexed. He did not think they were AR-3's but possibly modified AR-3's or even AR-2's with different tweeter system.

My question to all the AR experts is can anyone identify the model these speakers and possible clue into what's going on here. I doubt that they would be a counterfeit brand as everything else look AR from the construction and why would someone bother to do that. If these are not AR. what are they? Who is the Sherlock Holmes out there? I will send photo's.

[Carlspeak]

I'm sure Roy and/or TT will have something to say about your pictures. The label on the back looks authentic. The woofer does also. It's a very early alnico magnet type.

The mid and tweet look much newer. Those dome units were not developed in the AR3 to the extent shown in your picture. OTOH, they look nicely installed flush with the baffle board. Does the BB look original to you? I suspecst it might not be.

[mluong303]

This look like a modified AR-1W speaker takes up ADS tweeter and midrange. It would be interesting to see how the crossover being implement? Does the other speaker has mirror imaged tweeter/midrange?

Minh Luong

[RoyC]

The serial numbers indicate mid-production AR-3 cabinets with original AR woofers. The baffles, however, were modified by someone to accommodate later, non-AR tweeter and midrange drivers, which appear to be those used in ADS speakers. See link below. The baffle paint is too perfect to be original. A look at the innards should prove interesting.

http://sportsbil.com/ads/l-710_l-810-brochure%201.pdf

Roy

[tysontom]

The story begins when I purchased these speakers from a local thrift store. They had been painted with thick white semi gloss house paint. The labels on the back panel clearly stated AR-3. The drivers looked extremely vintage so I did not give it much thought. After a day of stripping and wiping down with Denatured alcohol, I was fairly successful in bringing back the walnut cabinets. I also wanted to get new speaker grill and badge as the grills that came with the speakers look after market and not of the same era. Larry from Vintage AR sent me new grills specified for the AR-3 cabinets. However, once I tried to install them, I found that they were way too small for the cabinet inner lip. Larry had me send him some pictures of what we were dealing with, and even he was perplexed. He did not think they were AR-3's but possibly modified AR-3's or even AR-2's with different tweeter system.

My question to all the AR experts is can anyone identify the model these speakers and possible clue into what's going on here. I doubt that they would be a counterfeit brand as everything else look AR from the construction and why would someone bother to do that. If these are not AR. what are they? Who is the Sherlock Holmes out there? I will send photo's.

Wow! Clearly, the owner knew what he was doing to get the AR woofer low-end performance combined with the reliable and good-quality ADS tweeters! Question is, what was done to the crossover? The front baffle has been completely changed along with the cabinet molding (the reason that the AR-3 standard grill would not fit), now more akin to the AR-2ax and AR-5 than the AR-1/AR-3/AR-3a. Perhaps the original AR-3 front baffle was cut out or "knocked" out from the inside (breaking the glue bond), along with removing the molding (this has to be done to get to the front baffle anyway). A new "flat-side" woofer hole appears to have been cut into that new plain baffle, along with the provisions for the ADS tweeters.

Can you send some more pictures?

--Tom Tyson

[Sax-son]

All you guys are awesome. You have really raised my curiosity as well. I will send more pictures, but I will have to get inside there to look. When I tested them with my system, they sounded so good that I didn't think it necessary. What exactly do you want to look at? Here are some that I didn't add due to maximum space requirements.

[mluong303]

All you guys are awesome. You have really raised my curiosity as well. I will send more pictures, but I will have to get inside there to look. When I tested them with my system, they sounded so good that I didn't think it necessary. What exactly do you want to look at? Here are some that I didn't add due to maximum space requirements.

Hi Tom

Thank you for the info regarding about this modified AR-3 speaker. When I first see the picture I suspect it was modified from AR-1W since that is the only AR 12" woofer model with front baffle area one can cut open to adapt with different kind of tweeter and midrange... with the closed up pictures posted later shown the moldings actually was custom made so they can be installed after the new front baffle is made to take any tweeter/midrange of choice. So I stand corrected this is indeed an AR-3 cabinet.

I agree it was a good choice to choose these ADS tweeter and midrange to replace the original AR-3 tweeter and midrange since they are more modernized drivers and more reliable and well made so will definitely last longer in the long run. Even if either one unit being blown down the road, the voice coil/dome diaphragm assembly will be easily be replaced just like many other European tweeter and midrange drivers. I wonder why AR never thought of it or follow what the new comers in the market have done decades ago! I love these German made ADS tweeter and midrange by Braun. They actually sound very transparent and accurate compare to AR9 in midrange and upper frequency. Adapting these 8 Ohms drivers to mate with the 4 Ohms AR woofer will require more technical knowledge and tweak to the crossover that is why I am interested in knowing what the owner of these AR-3 speakers had done to achieved the crossover modification?

The reason I ask if the tweeter and midrange combo is placed mirror image or not? If they are then very likely the owner was an old timer who like to place his AR-3 speakers horizontally in book shelves. Otherwise what is the advantage of placing them horizontally and not vertically as the attached photo? Any thought... Steve F?

By the way, Congratulations Sax-son! You have owned a very unique pair of great sounding AR-3 speakers to enjoy your music repertoire.

Minh Luong

[Carlspeak]

While we're on the subject of AR mods, visit a new post at the link below where an AR-1W was modded with M & T installed in mirror image.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=6271

[tysontom]

Hi Tom

Thank you for the info regarding about this modified AR-3 speaker. When I first see the picture I suspect it was modified from AR-1W since that is the only AR 12" woofer model with front baffle area one can cut open to adapt with different kind of tweeter and midrange... with the closed up pictures posted later shown the moldings actually was custom made so they can be installed after the new front baffle is made to take any tweeter/midrange of choice. So I stand corrected this is indeed an AR-3 cabinet.

I agree it was a good choice to choose these ADS tweeter and midrange to replace the original AR-3 tweeter and midrange since they are more modernized drivers and more reliable and well made so will definitely last longer in the long run. Even if either one unit being blown down the road, the voice coil/dome diaphragm assembly will be easily be replaced just like many other European tweeter and midrange drivers. I wonder why AR never thought of it or follow what the new comers in the market have done decades ago! I love these German made ADS tweeter and midrange by Braun. They actually sound very transparent and accurate compare to AR9 in midrange and upper frequency. Adapting these 8 Ohms drivers to mate with the 4 Ohms AR woofer will require more technical knowledge and tweak to the crossover that is why I am interested in knowing what the owner of these AR-3 speakers had done to achieved the crossover modification?

The reason I ask if the tweeter and midrange combo is placed mirror image or not? If they are then very likely the owner was an old timer who like to place his AR-3 speakers horizontally in book shelves. Otherwise what is the advantage of placing them horizontally and not vertically as the attached photo? Any thought... Steve F?

By the way, Congratulations Sax-son! You have owned a very unique pair of great sounding AR-3 speakers to enjoy your music repertoire.

Minh Luong

Hi Minh,

You make excellent points, and it really does look like an AR-1W, but the cabinet with the labels on the back along with the level-control cutouts for midrange and tweeter made me think it was an AR-3 original cabinet. You are so right regarding the reliability and build-quality of the ADS tweeters -- a much more modern method of fabrication than the original AR-3 design, of course. This is *not* to say that the ADS tweeters are better or more accurate than the AR-3 drivers (in their original state), and they are probably no more accurate, but they are reliable and they can handle much more power without stress.

The ADS driver replacement technology reflects the superior Braun/ADS (read German) engineering and QC technology for driver replacement. Ironically, this technology was used for years by the early pro-sound, compression-horn-driver manufacturers in this country, such as Western Electric, JBL, University, Jensen, E-V and Altec, such that replacement diaphragms with voice coils could be easily reattached to existing magnetic assemblies. But this was mainly in the professional field, and very few home-audio manufacturers except Braun/ADS initially thought to do it.

I liked your transposition of the midrange/tweeter in your picture! That would make them better suited to vertical placement, whereas his originals were better suited to horizontal placement as on a shelf. My question about the crossover was whether or not the modification retained the old crossover (the level controls are still in place) or whether an ADS one was used, then crossed into the AR woofer.

I've attached some (compressed) images of the ADS replacement (in this case the ADS L1590) tweeter and midrange top plates. These assemblies include the domes, lead wires and aluminum plate that simply screws onto the magnetic top-plate assembly, and the voice coils are coated with a treatment compatible with the Ferrofluid that is already in the magnetic gap -- thus the tweeters are "ready to go." The L1590 could handle quite a lot of power, and fuses (for the midrange) were later discontinued on that model due to the high-power capability and low failure rates, from what I was told.

--Tom Tyson

[Steve F]

The reason I ask if the tweeter and midrange combo is placed mirror image or not? If they are then very likely the owner was an old timer who like to place his AR-3 speakers horizontally in book shelves. Otherwise what is the advantage of placing them horizontally and not vertically as the attached photo? Any thought... Steve F?

Minh Luong

The only reason I can think of for placing the M-T side-by-side is that such an arrangement duplicates the placement in the ADS 810 (I think that was the model, around the same timeframe as the 10 Pi/11), and the owner likely didn't want to "take any chances" by straying too far from the original, proven ADS design. In the mid-70's, the uniform dispersion advantages of vertical M-T placement was not yet a widely-recognized concept. 1978's AR-9 really ushered in that concept to the industry on a wide basis.

There is also the very slight possibility that the owner DID understand this concept, but was planning to use these speakers mounted horizontally, so the M-T would be vertical. That's probably over-thinking the situation on our part, however.

Would anyone be able to identify in a statistically-significant manner whether the M-T was oriented H or V, if they were blindfolded and listening in the far field? I love these cans of worms.......

Steve F.

[mluong303]

"The only reason I can think of for placing the M-T side-by-side is that such an arrangement duplicates the placement in the ADS 810 (I think that was the model, around the same timeframe as the 10 Pi/11), and the owner likely didn't want to "take any chances" by straying too far from the original, proven ADS design."

Thank you for your replies, Tom and Steve.

The ADS speakers used horizontal arrangement of the tweeter next to midrange were the L-710 and L-810 due to space limitation! The L-910 went back to normal vertical arrangement as the L-630 in my previous post.

Minh Luong

[Sax-son]

Hello Mihn,

Thank you and all the others for your insight and analysis. I could have never have guessed all this information. The other speaker is a mirror of the one in the picture. However, I doubt they were intended to lay horizontally, because there were still some felt pads affixed to the bottoms of speakers indicating their use to be vertical standing.

My question to Tom Tyson is this, for me, the big mystery with these speakers is that someone with wood working experience knew what they were doing. This modification does look(to me anyway)very professional. Why would someone then plaster these nice cabinets with nasty thick latex paint. It just doesn't make sense to me. Someone took some time and thought in planning this. I thought these may have been part of some AR r&d project. Is that possible? I am going to try and get some good pictures of the insides. Hopefully, those will answer some of the questions that have arisen. I may take me a few days to get to it.

Thanks again to all of you.

[tysontom]

My question to Tom Tyson is this, for me, the big mystery with these speakers is that someone with wood working experience knew what they were doing. This modification does look(to me anyway)very professional. Why would someone then plaster these nice cabinets with nasty thick latex paint. It just doesn't make sense to me. Someone took some time and thought in planning this. I thought these may have been part of some AR r&d project. Is that possible? I am going to try and get some good pictures of the insides. Hopefully, those will answer some of the questions that have arisen. I may take me a few days to get to it.

Thanks again to all of you.

That is certainly the mystery here -- why someone would go to such lengths to retrofit ADS drivers into the AR-3 cabinet. As for the latex paint, perhaps that came from an owner other than the one who modified the boxes, I haven't a clue. This would never likely have been an AR R&D project, simply because Acoustic Research pioneered the use of dome tweeters in loudspeakers with the first AR-3 in 1958, and AR also looked somewhat askance at ADS as a high-end, salon-type speaker company -- not a serious competitor to the science of high-fidelity speaker systems. There was certainly respect for ADS's products, and I believe AR extensively tested their products along with many others along the way, but there isn't much reason that AR would want to do such a project.

I simply think that someone had two AR-3s with bad level controls, crossovers or low-output drivers, but also realized that the AR-3 possessed bass response about as good as it gets: so, why not put some newer dome tweeters in those boxes to combine with the excellent low end, and create a fine new system? A little woodworking expertise and the changeout would be possible.

--Tom Tyson

[soundminded]

That is certainly the mystery here -- why someone would go to such lengths to retrofit ADS drivers into the AR-3 cabinet. As for the latex paint, perhaps that came from an owner other than the one who modified the boxes, I haven't a clue. This would never likely have been an AR R&D project, simply because Acoustic Research pioneered the use of dome tweeters in loudspeakers with the first AR-3 in 1958, and AR also looked somewhat askance at ADS as a high-end, salon-type speaker company -- not a serious competitor to the science of high-fidelity speaker systems. There was certainly respect for ADS's products, and I believe AR extensively tested their products along with many others along the way, but there isn't much reason that AR would want to do such a project.

I simply think that someone had two AR-3s with bad level controls, crossovers or low-output drivers, but also realized that the AR-3 possessed bass response about as good as it gets: so, why not put some newer dome tweeters in those boxes to combine with the excellent low end, and create a fine new system? A little woodworking expertise and the changeout would be possible.

--Tom Tyson

My theory is that these were the synthesis of parts stolen by grave robbers who delivered them to the doctor. He "stitched them together", sent them up into the sky with a kite and a key during a lightning storm, they got hit by a blinding bolt and when they came down and the bandages were finally removed....VOILA! Frankenspeakers!

[Sax-son]

Ah! Frankenspeakers!Possibly? As long as they sound good, that's my criteria and so far they fit the bill. My memories as a kid listening to these AR speakers built in the 1960's were incredible. Unfortunately, at the time, they were way too expensive for my humble budget. They were usually heard a friends house who's father had them connected to a Fisher tube amplifier or something similar. "Cream" and "Beatles" never sounded so good. I think I am going to mate them up with a Sansui AU-717 I have hanging around. I do have other forms of music to give them a good run through. I am not an Audiophile but I love good music.

I will let you all know how they fair.

[Carlspeak]

When you do eventually get them up and running, I suggest you go a bit easy on the power & volume. Remember, these woofers were developed in an era when 50 watt amps were a big deal. I suspect the spider and cloth surround is very 'floppy' (i.e. loose). Overstroking could cause some damage.

[rwalton46]

Hello Mihn,

Thank you and all the others for your insight and analysis. I could have never have guessed all this information. The other speaker is a mirror of the one in the picture. However, I doubt they were intended to lay horizontally, because there were still some felt pads affixed to the bottoms of speakers indicating their use to be vertical standing.

My question to Tom Tyson is this, for me, the big mystery with these speakers is that someone with wood working experience knew what they were doing. This modification does look(to me anyway)very professional. Why would someone then plaster these nice cabinets with nasty thick latex paint. It just doesn't make sense to me. Someone took some time and thought in planning this. I thought these may have been part of some AR r&d project. Is that possible? I am going to try and get some good pictures of the insides. Hopefully, those will answer some of the questions that have arisen. I may take me a few days to get to it.

Thanks again to all of you.

I can't speak to the motives of the person who painted your speakers, but I can tell you of a pair of old 2ax's that I bought used in '78 or thereabouts. I was in Hawaii at the time, and discovered not long after buying the speakers that one of the cabinets was infested with termites, a common problem there. I poisoned the critters, eventually killing them. Not too long after that, I got married, moved to Oregon, and brought the speakers with me. I had plans to refinish the speakers, but like many projects, I continued to delay it. Finally my wife decreed that though the speakers sounded wonderful, they were too ugly to sit on the mantel in our living room. The solution: paint the speakers in the same off-white color as the mantel and the rest of the woodwork.

I don't know, but I'd bet that expedience played a role in the painting of your speakers, just as it did in mine.

Rick

[Sax-son]

Thanks Carl for that reminder. I did that exact thing to pair of KLH model 22's that I had. To much power for an old speaker. It's easy to forget that these speakers are most likely over 40 years old and time can take it's toll. It's hard to inspect the spiders unless you actually pull out the speaker to inspect them. I haven't quite got to that yet. The cones seem to be in solid shape, but you never know.

I wanted to take time to thank yourself, Tom, Mihn, Roy, Steve and Rick for all your expertise.You guys solved this mystery in no time at all. That is what makes this forum so great. You all get the award. My only previous experience owning AR products were the turntables and a pair of unfinished AR-2's. Unfortunately, the latter did not do much for me so I passed them on to someone else. They sounded a little bland with the system I had at the time. I have mostly owned Advents, but remember the AR's as mentioned in my previous posts. Rick probably hit it right on regarding the paint job. It was most likely the doings of somebody's wife. The color didn't match the walls.

John

[DON]

Not long ago there was a pair of ADS L810s on e-bay that were painted white. Painted cabinets can always be rescued but this guy painted all the drivers.