Jackal Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 Hi all,I was curious out there what brands and types of driver people use when replacing blown / missing / wrong drivers in their vintage speakers, when not replacing with a factory driver. My own issue relates to the AR-2ax's I just picked up (different thread). I usually use PartsExpress for drivers, but was curious which drivers produce the closest to "vintage" sound. Thanks, -Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackal Posted April 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 For example, isn't this:http://cgi.ebay.com/ACOUSTIC-RESEARCH-AR-3...=item2c5399cda6Just a modified version of this tweeter:http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.c...tnumber=297-417? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 Yes.RoyC has done extensive research and experimenting to find a replacement for the AR tweeter and he came up with the HiVi, with minor modifications. That's what Vintage-AR is selling. Do a search in the AR section.BUT--Roy will be the first one to tell you, you can't just pop any old drivers in the box, and if you do replace drivers you will have to design new crossovers. There's a reason vintage AR speakers sound so good while other brands do not.If you were to resurrect your 2ax's the HiVi tweeters would definitely work and may be better than the tired old AR tweets (the suspensions on those phenolic dome tweeters are drying out and coming apart). Mids are a whole other story.Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackal Posted April 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 Yes.RoyC has done extensive research and experimenting to find a replacement for the AR tweeter and he came up with the HiVi, with minor modifications. That's what Vintage-AR is selling. Do a search in the AR section.BUT--Roy will be the first one to tell you, you can't just pop any old drivers in the box, and if you do replace drivers you will have to design new crossovers. There's a reason vintage AR speakers sound so good while other brands do not.If you were to resurrect your 2ax's the HiVi tweeters would definitely work and may be better than the tired old AR tweets (the suspensions on those phenolic dome tweeters are drying out and coming apart). Mids are a whole other story.KentWow - very cool! I will be sure to look for these pages. I've done some minor crossover adjusting with a pair of Sansui speakers for fun, but nothing too crazy. Thanks, -Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilch Posted April 7, 2010 Report Share Posted April 7, 2010 For example, isn't this:http://cgi.ebay.com/ACOUSTIC-RESEARCH-AR-3...=item2c5399cda6Just a modified version of this tweeter:http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.c...tnumber=297-417Are you getting this yet? Heads UP; you are seriously ripe for exploitation by virtue of this quest.They don't make them like they used to, and some would argue deservedly so.Thus, your best resource is "roadkill," i.e., scrounging thrift stores, yard sales, benefits, estate sales, CraigsList, etc., and getting the deal before those who know that you and others will pay actual money for what the sellers presume to be all but worthless junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted April 7, 2010 Report Share Posted April 7, 2010 Hi all,I was curious out there what brands and types of driver people use when replacing blown / missing / wrong drivers in their vintage speakers, when not replacing with a factory driver. My own issue relates to the AR-2ax's I just picked up (different thread). I usually use PartsExpress for drivers, but was curious which drivers produce the closest to "vintage" sound. Thanks, -JackJack,It is one thing to replace the tweeter of an existing system with a modern alternative, but when you don't have any drivers at all, you are essentially designing a new speaker system when using all "new" drivers. ..AND your cabinet holes don't even match, so even used original drivers may not work too well. There are easier ways to achieve "vintage sound".Before attempting to combine a bunch of replacement drivers, I would seriously talk to Zilch about turning your cabinets into a matched pair of waveguide speakers ("E'Waves"). It is a proven, simple 2-way design with pre-made crossover boards provided by the Zilchster himself. I guarantee there is nothing you can do with replacement drivers that can come close to the sound, and it is an easier project! The only thing your cabinets have going for them is that they have the same dimensions and volume, for which Z can recommend a nice 10" woofer/waveguide tweeter combo. Having built a pair myself, which I find as satisfying as many of my "vintage" speakers, I would be happy to assist.What do you think, Zilch?Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilch Posted April 7, 2010 Report Share Posted April 7, 2010 What do you think, Zilch?Several DIYers have built AR2ax EconoWaves, and I have rocked the house with some made from AR2s. Key is whether the woofers will play gracefully up into the 1.5 kHz crossover region, which I have never measured. Advent woofers certainly get there competently. If so, it's a slam-dunk done deal; all that's necessary is a pair of cabinets such as you have already offered, woofers, and about $200 for the requisite additional components - waveguides, compression drivers, and crossovers - to complete the conversion.Once the grilles are installed, nobody but the listeners are any the wiser; the sound is certainly not "vintage," however.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackal Posted April 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2010 I did some forum searching, a lot of good info out there! I was wondering if anyone had done any testing or tried out this model?http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl....amp;ctab=2#TabsThe reviews really talk it up, and they have the full specs in .pdf format. I couldn't find it specifically when I searched (a few other Vifa models, though).-Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted April 8, 2010 Report Share Posted April 8, 2010 I did some forum searching, a lot of good info out there! I was wondering if anyone had done any testing or tried out this model?http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl....amp;ctab=2#TabsThe reviews really talk it up, and they have the full specs in .pdf format. I couldn't find it specifically when I searched (a few other Vifa models, though).-JackJack,I have a pair of those being sent to me from a fellow who tried them in AR-3as and didn't like them. They are set up with an adapter flange and a series cap/resistor arrangement by an outfit called "AudioProz", and sells for $120/pr! This is a good example of the pitfalls Zilch mentioned above. The tweeter is probably an acceptable replacement candidate, BUT ANY replacement driver is going to require a crossover modification, and must be able to fit the cabinet hole. In this case an adapter flange was provided for the hole (this tweeter is WAY too small for an AR cabinet hole), but the crossover modification attached to the back was inadequate.There is absolutely NO modern replacement driver currently on the market that can simply be dropped into an old AR model, as is, and provide the same performance as the original.Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackal Posted April 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2010 Roy,I do have some experience in crossover design, so I know it's not as simple as dropping em in and letting em rip, haha. I have just been curious as I read through the threads as this seems to be a real issue (as you well know, based on your posts) and I figured I'd see if anyone had thought to try that model yet. $120 a pair??? Oooof. I thought I got screwed.-Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted April 8, 2010 Report Share Posted April 8, 2010 Roy,I do have some experience in crossover design, so I know it's not as simple as dropping em in and letting em rip, haha. I have just been curious as I read through the threads as this seems to be a real issue (as you well know, based on your posts) and I figured I'd see if anyone had thought to try that model yet. $120 a pair??? Oooof. I thought I got screwed.-JackGenerally speaking, and without opening up the "dispersion" can of worms, the old AR dome tweeters enhanced only the very highest frequencies (5000hz+/- and higher), and were originally called "super tweeters" by AR. There are likely any number of modern tweeters that could be made to "work" with crossover modifications, but the added problem of making them fit the oversized AR cabinet hole limits their practicality as simple "drop in" replacements. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilch Posted April 8, 2010 Report Share Posted April 8, 2010 We've been around this loop a couple of times before. Here are the specs:1) It's gotta look like the original.2) It's gotta sound like the original.3) It's gotta have the same dispersion characteristics as the original.4) It's gotta fit the original cutout perfectly.5) It's gotta have the same screw hole locations.6) It's gotta work without crossover modifications.7) It's gotta use the same control settings for equivalent performance.8) It's gotta cost less than $15.That's not ridicule, rather, fact, and it's clearly not "About the MUSIC!"Have at it, if you like, but know in front, even if you met the spec, it still wouldn't be good enough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted April 8, 2010 Report Share Posted April 8, 2010 Have at it, if you like, but know in front that, even if you met the spec, it still wouldn't be good enough.... Good point, Z...I always tell folks who prefer the HiVi tweeter mod to hang on to the originals, regardless of their condition, just in case they want to sell their speakers someday. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genek Posted April 8, 2010 Report Share Posted April 8, 2010 The quick answer to the question, based on what we've seen over the years, is "just about everything." Whether any of them reproduce "vintage sound" is another matter. And then there's the question of whether people replacing drivers really like "vintage sound," or if they're just attracted to the cache of owning things that are collectible and regarded by some as great classics. The number of people coming through this site asking for tips on changing the sound they're getting from their classic speakers to sound more like modern speakers is an indication that many of them fall into the latter group.Dave's recent thread on modding the crossover of the AR-4x shows that it is possible to make a vintage AR sound more like a modern speaker using its original drivers. If this can be done, it seems reasonable that some clever designer could figure out a way to make modern speaker drivers produce "vintage sound," and not necessarily by using the same type of drivers as the vintage designs.So how about it, Roy, Zilch, anyone? Care to take on the challenge of making an E-Wave or other speaker built with all-new drivers that reproduces the sound of a classic New England model? Since there's obviously no commercial market for it (otherwise, there'd be one for sale somewhere), the only way it's ever going to get done is by someone who just wants to show that it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted April 9, 2010 Report Share Posted April 9, 2010 The quick answer to the question, based on what we've seen over the years, is "just about everything." Whether any of them reproduce "vintage sound" is another matter. And then there's the question of whether people replacing drivers really like "vintage sound," or if they're just attracted to the cache of owning things that are collectible and regarded by some as great classics. The number of people coming through this site asking for tips on changing the sound they're getting from their classic speakers to sound more like modern speakers is an indication that many of them fall into the latter group.Dave's recent thread on modding the crossover of the AR-4x shows that it is possible to make a vintage AR sound more like a modern speaker using its original drivers. If this can be done, it seems reasonable that some clever designer could figure out a way to make modern speaker drivers produce "vintage sound," and not necessarily by using the same type of drivers as the vintage designs.So how about it, Roy, Zilch, anyone? Care to take on the challenge of making an E-Wave or other speaker built with all-new drivers that reproduces the sound of a classic New England model? Since there's obviously no commercial market for it (otherwise, there'd be one for sale somewhere), the only way it's ever going to get done is by someone who just wants to show that it can be done.Not me, Gene...The challenge of restoring the old beasts is mostly enough for me these days. I see no point in doing more than that. To me the E'wave concept is mostly an excellent sounding way to re-cycle cabinets and woofers, though I also find it very interesting to follow the efforts of DIY speaker hobbyists. I get satisfaction in knowing efforts, like the 3a/2ax/5 HiVi tweeter replacement, and l-pad/resistor AR pot replacements maintain the integrity of the original sound quite well. The tweeters may not sound "exactly" like the original design of those particular models, but the classic "New England" character is still present, and considered to be, by a number of folks (including me), pleasantly enhanced. With that in mind, given the considerable effort it takes to design ANY decent speaker system from the ground up, and the lack of new, high quality acoustic suspension woofer candidates in today's market, it certainly is not worth any effort on my part to pursue such a project.Besides, Zilch's point, which I agree with, is that it wouldn't matter if someone succeeded in duplicating the exact sound of any of the old timers anyway. Who would really care? Hobbyists like us who might care are more satisfied with the look and feel of the originals. Most lurkers here are probably searching for info just to get some old speakers "working". They are perfectly happy when the speakers are making sound again, regardless of the "New England" thing. Then, of course, there are those people who know there is a significant advantage to the concept of "all original" (regardless of condition) as it pertains to unloading them or flipping them on Ebay. The speakers in regular rotation in my home, at present, are AR-3as (with HiVi tweeters installed & original tweeters on the parts shelf for re-sale purposes), KLH 5's, AR-94s, Avid 103s, and Avid 102 E'waves...and whatever latest project or restoration is in progress. I enjoy them all very much, and they all sound different. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genek Posted April 9, 2010 Report Share Posted April 9, 2010 Besides, Zilch's point, which I agree with, is that it wouldn't matter if someone succeeded in duplicating the exact sound of any of the old timers anyway. Who would really care?I expect the person who would care most would be the one who repeatedly maintains that modern speaker technologies can achieve the goals that vintage speaker designers were pursuing. I've yet to hear any modern speaker that seems to support this claim, but whether it's because the claim is unsupportable or because no modern speaker designer is trying to do it is the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilch Posted April 9, 2010 Report Share Posted April 9, 2010 I expect the person who would care most would be the one who repeatedly maintains that modern speaker technologies can achieve the goals that vintage speaker designers were pursuing. I've yet to hear any modern speaker that seems to support this claim, but whether it's because the claim is unsupportable or because no modern speaker designer is trying to do it is the question.I herewith borrow this word from Ken -- "Trivial...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genek Posted April 9, 2010 Report Share Posted April 9, 2010 I herewith borrow this word from Ken -- "Trivial...." Without trivia, this wouldn't be any fun at all; it'd be work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlspeak Posted April 9, 2010 Report Share Posted April 9, 2010 ..................................So how about it, Roy, Zilch, anyone? Care to take on the challenge of making an E-Wave or other speaker built with all-new drivers that reproduces the sound of a classic New England model? Since there's obviously no commercial market for it (otherwise, there'd be one for sale somewhere), the only way it's ever going to get done is by someone who just wants to show that it can be done.Enter the AR Super-Mod. I've done it with a pair of high quality Seas drivers and an all-new xover. Clearer, more open sound but maintaining the original laid-back voicing. Other alternates done for select customers include a Scanspeak tweeter and also a ribbon tweeter.Of course, the dispersion characteristics of the original 3/4 inch dome can't be matched by anything available today, the Super-Mod is a tad better than having a poor performaing pair of classics sitting around collecting dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genek Posted April 9, 2010 Report Share Posted April 9, 2010 Enter the AR Super-Mod. I've done it with a pair of high quality Seas drivers and an all-new xover. Clearer, more open sound but maintaining the original laid-back voicing. Other alternates done for select customers include a Scanspeak tweeter and also a ribbon tweeter.Of course, the dispersion characteristics of the original 3/4 inch dome can't be matched by anything available today, the Super-Mod is a tad better than having a poor performaing pair of classics sitting around collecting dust.You should probably have a talk with the unfortunate fellow in the AR forum who has that pair of bunged-up LSTs with mismatched tweeters and the wrong crossovers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilch Posted April 10, 2010 Report Share Posted April 10, 2010 Of course, the dispersion characteristics of the original 3/4 inch dome can't be matched by anything available today....No, huh?http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...ost&id=5512 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted April 10, 2010 Report Share Posted April 10, 2010 Enter the AR Super-Mod. I've done it with a pair of high quality Seas drivers and an all-new xover. Clearer, more open sound but maintaining the original laid-back voicing. Other alternates done for select customers include a Scanspeak tweeter and also a ribbon tweeter.Of course, the dispersion characteristics of the original 3/4 inch dome can't be matched by anything available today, the Super-Mod is a tad better than having a poor performaing pair of classics sitting around collecting dust.Thanks for reminding us of your 3a Super-Mod, Carl. I would love to hear it someday, and willing to bet it sounds quite good...easily meeting the "classic New England sound" criteria.If we are truly talking about the "classic New England sound", we have to remember that many of the "classic" representatives were not equipped with the AR 3/4" dome at all. Some ARs had 1 1/8" dome tweeters, and some had cones in them. Many other brands had 1 inch domes, much like the Seas tweeter used in Carl's design. KLH cone tweeters were recessed behind perforated metal plates! I would argue that given the deeply recessed cabinet baffle/heavy cloth covered masonite grille design of the old ARs, as well as most other speakers of the day, the dispersion attributes of the AR 3/4" dome tweeter have been blown way out of proportion as it relates to the sound character being discussed here.As primarily restoration (preservation?) hobbyists, we are always walking the line between total authenticity as a "restoration" goal (or neurosis), and the temptation to tweak performance and reliability. Obviously, there are extremes to both approaches that can be counterproductive to maintaining the original personality of the old speakers, for which this forum exists.Zilch, you rascal... Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.