Psycoacoustics and amps??

[kkantor]

Thanks for the report. Maybe those amps DO sound different. Which is broken? The one that sounds worse to you! After all, you are a customer, not a designer or reviewer. There is no need for you to know the "truth." Preference is what it is all about.

Whenever scientific dogma is contradicted by individual experience, it can be difficult to unravel, and may or may not be worth your time to do. For example, let's say that you experience hair regrowth after using a formula that contains rubbing alcohol. Or your whole family is shocked by accurate information that a psychic tells you about secret knowledge? Or a piece of steel holds more weight than math simulations could have predicted? I bet you can track down something in your listening test that will surprise you, but, on the other hand, you might be perfectly satisfied with your data as is. First, there are some general rules, not related to audio, per se:

1- The science might be wrong. Researchers are constantly claiming to have found a flaw in relativity, disproven Darwin or Nyquist, discovered a new planet, etc. Most all of this turns out to be false, but the process is healthy. Once in a while, conventional knowledge does get overturned.

2- The science might be right, but the instantiation wrong. In other words, you might have a subtle situation where the theory doesn't properly apply if you think carefully about it.

3- The cognitive experience might be inaccurate. A subject consciously trying to eliminate bias in an experiment simply never works, however sincere the intent, and whatever the self-reported expectations. This is well-known from cognitive research, and it is the reason that controls are used. I know, people don't like to doubt their own senses, especially when a group is involved. But, subconscious factors are exactly that: subconscious.

4- The test procedure might be flawed in ways not apparent to the casual experimenter... more things might be changing than realized.

5- Statistics and randomness might be at work.

Leaving philosophy and getting practical:

6- If one amp was even slightly louder than the other, they would sound radically and immediately different. Differences in amp sensitivity are discovered to be the cause of many of the reports of sonic amp signatures. When this factor is taken away, poof, the differences cannot be heard anymore. You can't balance levels by ear, obviously, since this produces a circular causality wherein differences may be either magnified or reduced, depending on random initial conditions.

7- I do not know the performance of the Thresholds well enough to say they are neutral. Many more expensive amps justify their existance by having a higher output impedance than they "should," therefore leading to varying sound with varying loads. No opinion, just a variable.

8- You didn't do this at all blindly, and there are reasons why blind tests have become the rule. In a sighted experiment, listening groups tend to reinforce one another, once any answer is established. You really need to do this whole test again, with one in the group administering the test by coin toss, while the listeners do not know what is playing. If you can do this, and get the amp levels REALLY matched, not just turned up by ear, you might be on to something.

[Guest Sean]

Bret: Trust your ears. They are telling you things that some people simply can't explain or don't know how measure. I will say that the differences in amplifiers / preamplifiers are measurable if you know how to do it. J. Peter Moncrieff of International Audio Review used to provide frequency response charts for amps / preamps and even speaker wires, etc... that did not look like the "flat" frequency responses that most manufacturers and "typical" test bench reviewers provided. The funny thing was that Moncrieff's frequency response charts actually looked like what the units souned like.

As for what you noticed between the Adcom and Threshold amps, you've learned something very valuable here. You will have closed minded individuals and "mid-fi" magazines tell you that amplifiers that measure the same sound the same, that Adcom's, Rotel's, NAD's, Denon, etc.. are as good as the best that are out there, etc... This is simply not true. They may all be decent products that measure well and offer a lot of bang for the buck, but they simply don't sound as good as other units that may have more advanced designs using higher grade parts. I have owned well over 50 amplifiers ( so far ), currently have over 25 amps on the premises ( no, i'm not a dealer ) and have heard dozens upon dozens more. I have compared a half dozen amps within the same system in less than 6 hours time and let me tell you, they all sound different and have discernable differences to them. That is, if the system is resolving enough and you know how to "listen" and not just "hear" sounds.

Keep an open mind but remain skeptical. Don't pass up the opportunity to learn / see for yourself. Otherwise, you'll be stuck trying to figure out who to believe when you read posts like this when first hand experience would be FAR more reliable. Just because someone is well known or has a reputation does not make them right. Sean

>

[Guest Sean]

Ken: One may have all the knowledge of the world in their head but that does not mean that they fully understand what it all means or be able to put that knowledge to use at any given time.

Just because you think what we know now is "all emcompassing" does not mean that there is not more to learn down the road. If it were not for such people as Galileo, Newton, Einstien, Tesla, etc... that described and DID what others said was "impossible" and flew in the face of conventional thought and theory, we would not be where we are today. As such, you may think our level of knowledge and understanding can explain most things today, but i ( and many others ) believe that we have only scratched the surface of what technology we can develop and the full understanding of what the human body is capable of.

As such, i will agree with one part of your rebuttal. You can keep promoting your theories of the flat Earth and the traditions / teachings of the past and i'll look forward to the future and continue to practice the "religion" of "audio heresy". We will probably both do this until we can fully explain why / how we DO hear the things that we do and understand why circuits that measure similarly may sound differently. Hopefully, we'll both still be around so that you can buy me a beer and tell me i was right when this comes to pass Sean

>

PS... I don't drink "generic" beer. Not all beer tastes the same and some of the expensive stuff DOES taste better

[Guest]

>If you can do this, and get the amp levels REALLY matched, not just turned up by ear, you might be on to something. <

I'm almost certain you are completely correct.

Further "testing" has been done and here's "the rub."

There is a very involved passage on one CD that was played multiple times through both amplifiers (cheap CD player). The Threshold revealed (emphasized?) a piano in and amongst the cacaphony. This background piano *completely disappears* through the Adcom. Gone. Nada. Zip. Lost in the mud. Even knowing it is there and TRYING to convince myself that I hear it, I don't. (and I'm not proud of this because the Adcom is mine, the Threshold a friend's) It doesn't matter how loud you turn it up, it doesn't matter if you play it softly, it doesn't matter if you fiddle with tone controls.

That leads me to believe the Adcom is broken or some combination of cables, wire, *something* is wrong for the amplifier.

I'm about to throw a third amplifier into the mix, an old SAE 502A, which does not appear to be in the same class with either the Adcom or Threshold amps. We'll hear what we hear.

Oh, the Threshold amp loses some of its "sting" when used with the GTP-740 preamp, the old SAE 2900 reveals more. Now, I'm SURE this is due to something (impedance in or out, output levels, better cohabitation with the RCA plugs, better balance of "something" with the CD player being used, *something* measurable). Finding-out what something this something is might be difficult or impossible, but apparently would be worth the effort.

The only reason I entered this thread was to say that; to someone not in a test lab, not able to compensate differences away, unable to control for every variable, there *is* a difference in the way these two amplifiers sound. The fact that there is a difference is not subjective. Well, not unless you get out into mind-bending metaphysics and convince me that although I clearly see my daughter standing in the kitchen that it might really be my aunt because reality is "perceived." The only test equipment we have available is subjective and so saying which is "better" is purely a matter of opinion, I recognize that.

I'm mostly interested in the question "What the ____'s changing?" I wouldn't even know where to start.

Bret

[stan461]

>8- You didn't do this at all blindly, and there are reasons

>why blind tests have become the rule. In a sighted

>experiment, listening groups tend to reinforce one another,

>once any answer is established. You really need to do this

>whole test again, with one in the group administering the

>test by coin toss, while the listeners do not know what is

>playing. If you can do this, and get the amp levels REALLY

>matched, not just turned up by ear, you might be on to

>something.

Finally! The essence of the discussion. Anyone willing to try this? I'm sure this has already been done. Can anyone provide the results of an objective "blindfold" test ? I hope we can all agree that blindfold is the ONLY way to go here. I myself will start looking.

Wonderful discussion. At this point in time, I'm sure many of us are anxious to get some facts on the table.

[Guest]

>That is, if the system is resolving enough and you know how to "listen" and not just "hear" sounds. <

I think I'm sorry I ever learned to listen.

Sometimes audiophiles get so wrapped-up in their equipment that they put the gear ahead of the content. I do not own hundreds of CDs because they make my gear sound good, but because I enjoy listening to the music so much. Mine is not a search for audio's Holy Grail, but just an attempt to get something that sounds *great* so that I can enjoy everything from Bach to Zappa. Frankly, I don't WANT to think about the equipment.

Over the years of exposure to so many different (mid-fi, I think you'd call them) setups I *learned* to have a listening-problem. I learned to listen for "dispersion" and "image."

I might be fooling myself. I may be confusing those things with phase distortion or reflected sound or standing waves, or any one of a hundred other things.

Whatever I'm hearing, I often find myself tilting my head slightly to get in the sweet spot and as long as I don't blink I'm fine. If I get out of the sweet spot I'm irritated. Sweet spots are tiny.

Mostly I'm irritated that the sweet spot is so incredibly small. I don't have this problem in live performances; the sound is what the sound is.

So, while I hear what I hear and want to like what I hear, I'm afriad I'm getting off into the realm of hearing the equipment and placement more than the content.

When I was in FL recently someone wanted me to listen to their Paradigm something-db-somethings. I went, listened, and politely told them how great their setup was. It really almost offended me. To the right of the right speaker was open space for 12-14'. To the left of the left speaker was a reflective wall at about 5'. Behind the right cabinet was a solid wall. Behind the left cabinet was a descending staircase about half-way up the cabinet.

So I'm getting reflected sound heavy off the left wall, nothing from the rear drivers; and on the right I'm getting no audible reflection off the right wall, but reflection off the rear wall. And it was WAY too bright and instruments mostly right-channel are reflecting off the left wall at odd times and uuuuuugh!

His gear is inarguably mid-fi. But it's nice-enough mid-fi. I hated the sounds it was making.

I'm about to put my 9s in their permanent spot. I don't have a listening-room and so the speakers are going to be stationed where they will fit in the room and the room is all-wrong for them.

A sick feeling is coming over me as I anticipate hating the way it is going to sound. There is nothing, not amplifier selection, not preamplifier selection, not wire selection, that is going to make it "okay." I can't hang sound-absorption blankets from the stone fireplace, either. I didn't used to be like this. I know my hearing is getting worse, not better.

My point is that learning to listen to the gear and hearing the room has definite drawbacks that are forming themselves into a disability for me personally. The room may be more important than the equipment.

Bret

[Guest]

>At this point in time, I'm sure many of us are anxious to get some facts on the table.<

I don't know how to do this. With an A/B switcher for speaker comparisons you have the problem of both sets of speakers not being able to occupy the same space at the same time.

Trying to A/B amplifiers you have the problem of A/B switching not really being possible, as far as I know. How can you take an amp out of the circuit and install another instantly? Maybe throw the other amplifier to a resistive load?

I don't have all the stuff necessary to A/B amps.

I suspect that really isn't what is called-for. I suspect what is necessary is some really, really good test equipment that can record darn-near everything. Once the data is available then it should be possible to theorize what hard-facts are responsible for what perceptions. But then I know of no way to test that theory other than by altering an amplifier and doing it all again.

By the way, I hope you know I'm not taking sides in this discussion. I can HEAR, clearly, the difference in the two amplifiers I'm comparing - it is ultra-obvious. ANYone could hear this. I'm sure Ken can explain why I'm hearing it and provide solutions to make the differences go-away (like change speaker wire on one amp vs the other) if I could give him all the facts.

But just so you'll know - I don't *want* to hear a difference in amplifiers. I'm pretty distressed that I can. I was ready to pounce Sean for being a "golden-eared, over-opinionated, [mistaken person]." Glad I didn't insert my foot down my throat before I tried it.

One thing I am suspicious of - my "reference" speakers are AR10pi's. They have a strange crossover (so strange that a fuse can blow and yet the speaker still makes some noise - it has always been thus). I wonder if the difficulty of the load presented by that crossover isn't either exaggerating or embellishing the differences.

I'm ready for facts, too. I suspect if you could isolate the perceived differences in these two amplifiers and identify their causes, one could make a mint exploiting it.

Something I can do, that bears doing, is that the 10pi has a unique feature that will let me change the impedance from 16 to 8 to 4 Ohms. I haven't tried switching the amplifiers back and forth at different impedances. Could it be that changing the load is going to completely change the amplifier's "tone?"

I wish it were possible to get some hard data.

Bret

[ToastedAlmond]

Bret,

You think your ears are getting shot? I have been riding around listening to J-57 (absolute screamer) and TF-33 jet engines for the last 26 yrs. My hearing is trashed, but it's no excuse not to own and use the best I can afford. ESPECIALLY for the Z in A-Z! Don Van Vliet too!

George

[stan461]

Bret,

I am not taking a side either! And if you did take a side I would fully respect your position. I'm just trying to learn and have a little fun at the same time, just like yourself and everyone else here.

My interest in this thread is also a little selfish. I recently purchased a Hafler DH-500. I figure that maybe my AR3a's will be happier with the extra power. In a year or two I was planning to upgrade the Hafler with a Bryston/Threshold/Krell/Classe,etc. but if there will is no difference between similar powered amps then why bother? The money would be better spent in the pre-amp or cables.

Thanks for the response Bret, and of course to everyone else.

[Guest]

Once upon a time I attended a Firing Line debate. There were all sorts of presentations and speeches and a press conference. During one of these events I had the opportunity to meet William F Buckley, Jr. and speak with him for a minute. I foolishly asked him if he had altered his stand on 5th Amendment rights (which he would disallow in some instances and water-down in others). He told me he had not changed his mind at all and began citing judicial decisions and their ramifications. After a while he stopped, looked me in the eye rather directly at an angle, then invited me to tell him my views.

Anyone who has read Buckley, or seen him in a debate, or seen him cornered on Firing Line, knows that one should be well-prepared to debate Bill Buckley. Discretion being the better part of valor, one should probably just be quiet. I was all but silent reciting a cliche which he then explained-away using thoughts from Plato's Republic.

I feel a little like that when discussing this whole subject with someone who has spent their professional life in the field. I should just be quiet. But I can't. I have more subjective data to share.

>Thanks for the report. Maybe those amps DO sound different. Which is broken? The one that sounds worse to you! <

I told you we were going to throw a SAE 502A into the mix. Last night we did. After 6 hours of listening to the same music repeatedly on three amplifiers I think I can say with some authority that *I* cannot hear any difference between the SAE 502A and the Adcom GFA-555Mk II amplifiers. I suspect in an A/B situation I couldn't tell whether or not you switched amplifiers, much less tell you which was which. Weeeeeellll, maybe. Quick switching wasn't possible.

The Threshold A400 amp continues to sound different than the other two. Just one example - a piano string "rings" much higher in the vertical image and is much "deeper" in 3-D terms. The bass is also noticably less "tight." Some highly, even over-produced, vocals are further from the speaker cabinet. This is easily heard; not subtle.

But I didn't come here to just repeat myself. We graduated to changing preamplifiers again, this time spending some time with each of the preamps (SAE 2900 / Adcom GTP-740) on the Threshold and Adcom amps.

A lot of the "spaciousness" of the Threshold goes-away with the Adcom preamp. The bass also tightens somewhat. The spaciousness of the Threshold/SAE combination does *not* reappear using the SAE preamp/ Adcom amp combination.

Any theory I propose is going to be wrong, but I suspect we have either a great match, or possibly a horrible mismatch, of output/input impedances with the SAE/Threshold setup. Perhaps a cable "ringing?" I don't really know what to think such a thing would do to the sound. In any case,I've come to the conclusion that even if it is a horrible error we have going on here, it is a pleasant-sounding one.

With an exception. I thought this might instantly clue you in to what we are experiencing - with the SAE/Threshold combination there is a very soft 60Hz hum which disappears when the CD player is disconnected... That was the only way to make it stop.

Are we subjectively preferring a problem? Hmmmmmm.

The other thing I'm guessing is that the "class A" amplifier just sounds different than the Bs, period; in much the same way that a tube amp sounds different than a solid state amp. I thought it was particularly interesting that changing the preamp would emphasize or partially eliminate that difference.

That's the end of the experiments. Today I reclaim my gear, he keeps his, I get my 9s running, and then I get back to my real life for a while.

Bret

[Guest Sean]

>By the way, I hope you know I'm not taking sides in this

>discussion. I can HEAR, clearly, the difference in the two

>amplifiers I'm comparing - it is ultra-obvious. ANYone

>could hear this. I'm sure Ken can explain why I'm hearing

>it and provide solutions to make the differences go-away

>(like change speaker wire on one amp vs the other) if I

>could give him all the facts.

Bret, you ARE taking sides in this "discussion". You've stated your opinion / point of view based on your experience. One does not have to have a lot of experience or "golden ears" to know what they hear. Some differences are OBVIOUS and you seem to have stumbled across a combination of components that proves this point.

As far as the Adcom vs Threshold goes, do you think that the Threshold is "making music appear" that is not on the recording or that the Adcom is simply not passing on the information that it is being fed ? I don't know how resolving the entire system is that you're listening to, but it is obviously "good enough" to let you hear the differences in performance that these amps are capable of.

As far as Ken being able to explain the differences, his thoughts are that one amp is broken and the other isn't. He has already stated such. If he said that changing speaker cables would "correct" the differences of presentation between the two amps, he would be acknowledging that amplifiers were load sensitive and did sound different with various loads on them. He would also be saying that speaker cables can affect the sound of a system. As such, he will never do so as it will push him back further into a corner. If a passive device such as wire could affect the sound of a system, how much more would that be true for variances in ACTIVE circuitry ???

>But just so you'll know - I don't *want* to hear a

>difference in amplifiers. I'm pretty distressed that I can.

> I was ready to pounce Sean for being a "golden-eared,

>over-opinionated, [mistaken person]." Glad I didn't insert

>my foot down my throat before I tried it.

Glad that you have an open mind about this. I have the advantage of having tons of audio gear and test equipment at my disposal. Not only can i listen to it, but i can also measure it if i really get curious.

As far as your comments go about NOT wanting to hear the differences in gear, i hear ya and agree. It can become tough to simply sit back and enjoy some tunes rather than dissecting a performance or the gear reproducing the recording.

A "true" audiophile seeks a system that is both revealing and musical at the same time. While this can be a very tough thing to achieve, it allows one to take in all of the various "tweaky" details such as high resolution, soundstaging, imagery, good tonal balance, proper harmonic structure, blackness of background, transient response, good PRAT ( pace, rhythm, acceleration and timing ), etc... while still enjoying all of the emotion of the music at the same time. Most "typical" systems that are thought of as being "audiophile quality" typically tend to be somewhat bright and analytical.

On the other side of the coin, you have people that are simply music lovers that could care less about the "ultimate" in reproduction. They simply enjoy listening to tunes and if a specific "colouration" enhances their system or specific recordings, that is fine with them too. As such, many "musical" systems are thought to be somewhat warm and soft sounding.

I think that most of us start off as "music lovers" and escalate into "audiophiles" as time goes on. Obviously, there are various levels of each category with most people falling somewhere in-between. Personally, i like a combination of "musical" and "accurate". It is what has driven me to the level of gear and research that i am currently experimenting with and why i have five completely different ( in components and style of presentation ) systems within my house.

>One thing I am suspicious of - my "reference" speakers are

>AR10pi's. They have a strange crossover (so strange that a

>fuse can blow and yet the speaker still makes some noise -

>it has always been thus). I wonder if the difficulty of the

>load presented by that crossover isn't either exaggerating

>or embellishing the differences.

Most amps will have slightly different frequency responses as impedances are altered, especially when cut in half or doubled. This is measurable and you can see the results of such testing in the current February Stereophile review of the Parasound JC-1's. As impedance is lowered, high frequency response is rolled off to a greater extent in this specific design.

This is not to mention that the specification of "damping factor" ( some judge this to be related to bass control ) is also reduced as impedance is lowered. This is true of ALL amplifiers though, so i'm not just talking about the Parasound. As such, lower impedance speakers will always require amplifiers with lower output impedances and / or higher levels of current delivery in order to maintain the same amount of control that a higher impedance speaker of identical design would display.

>I'm ready for facts, too. I suspect if you could isolate the

>perceived differences in these two amplifiers and identify

>their causes, one could make a mint exploiting it.

This has already been done many years ago. It is what separates the different brands, makes and models of amplifiers. While some may lay claim to amps sounding / performing the same, both audiophiles and well-experienced engineers know better. As such, they have narrowed down specific traits of amplifier design and circuitry and produce products based on their observations. To do so, the research and building of multiple proto-types costs money and is no different than any other form of R&D in any other industry prior to putting a product on the market. These products represent what the engineers / manufacturers think offers the greatest level of accuracy with the specific sonic traits that they feel are most desirable. Out of these offerings, it is up to you to find what you like best and works harmoniously with the rest of yoru system. This is why Krell's don't sound like McIntosh's and have VERY different designs behind them.

>Something I can do, that bears doing, is that the 10pi has a

>unique feature that will let me change the impedance from 16

>to 8 to 4 Ohms. I haven't tried switching the amplifiers

>back and forth at different impedances. Could it be that

>changing the load is going to completely change the

>amplifier's "tone?"

I would encourage you to experiment as much as possible while trying to keep variables within the system to a minimum. Just keep in mind that NO product is 100% stable and all will respond to outside influences. As such, the results that you obtain / experience with those specific components / cables might not directly apply to another system consisting of different designs with various levels of complex circuitry. Finding a "universal truth" in audio is a rare thing.

>I wish it were possible to get some hard data. Bret

It is out there, you just have to know where to look. Much of what i have learned came from "pioneers" of the industry who were laughed at in their early stages of reporting the truth of what they heard / measured. Many of their "laughable" opinions / measurements from way back when are now thought to be "fact" by very educated individuals. I'm not just talking about Moncrieff and Lumley but folks such as Marsh, Jung, Curl, Ottala, etc.. As such, their experimentation encouraged me to do the same and find out for myself. Some of my results / experiences DID NOT mirror those of what they reported, but i learned from it none the less.

That is why i have such great respect for those that are willing to learn on their own / experiment with what they have available. I know that it only leads to a better understanding and the potential for both greater musical enjoyment and system accuracy. While you might not end up being another Einstein, Tesla, Newton, Galileo, etc... you can share in much of the same joys that they did when you make / find / experience a "break-through". Sean

>

PS... As a system becomes more revealing, you can hear even greater differences amongst components. I have a lot of respect for Nelson Pass / Threshold products, but some of them are far superior to others within their own product line. As far as comparing Threshold to Adcom, the very best Adcom products that they have ever offered were in fact designed by Nelson Pass, who used to own Threshold as a company and designed many of the products that they offered. Even these Adcom products ( GFP-750, GFA-5800 & GFA-5802 ) are not up to the level of some older Threshold products. As such, one can see that there is more to making a "good" product than just a "good" design or a knowledgeable engineer. Obviously, the quality of parts used and how they are laid out DO affect how the components perform, measure and sound. Components / systems work as an entire package and should be looked at / treated in that manner if one wants to achieve the best results possible.

[kkantor]

Good work! I think if you re-read your own post, the answer is in there. Here is my original comment in this thread:

"If two solid state amps of comparible power sound different, then one or both of the amps is broken. Properly functioning amps do not sound appreciably different from one another, at least different enough to change the sound quality in a system to any real degree."

So, now you have two amps that sound pretty much the same, and a third that doesn't. Further, the one that doesn't is exhibiting hum under certain circumstances... I'd say this has been a useful learning experience, and it is a good time to take the combo you like the best, and go listen to some music!

[kkantor]

Sean: One may have all the experience of the world in their head but that does not mean that they fully understand what it all means or be able to put that knowledge to use at any given time.

However, I will buy you the beer of your choice any time we are in the same vicinity. I'm in Berkeley, CA, BTW.

[kkantor]

http://www.theonion.com/onion3902/skeptic_pitied.html

[Guest]

Ooooooooo. Uh, Ken, don't you think that might be just a tad unfair?

I mean, well, we heard the differences in the amplifiers. We made the hum go away. We still heard the differences in the amplifiers.

Reading some of Nelson Pass's articles (or at least those on his website) he seems to say that running-up the bias in an amplifier produces the audible effects we experienced. I read the article *after* hearing the effects for myself, so it can't be a case of my mind making me hear what I wanted to hear. Unless I was experiencing precognition or something equally metaphysically weird, I suppose.

Well, my non-psychic, unverified, unmeasured experience of the three amps in question certainly fits into this "bias theory." Does that mean I'm operating on faith or that I think Shirley McClane (sp?) is the second coming?

It just "feels" like I don't know what to measure. Which gets back to whats-his-face with the Symdex Sigma speakers and psycho-acoustics and I suppose your work on the MGC-1. Was everyone measuring the same stuff?

By the way, you remind me of my late uncle, Ralph Graves. It's a style issue. (he was a favorite uncle - by the way - and you remind me of him BEFORE he was "late". . . just don't want to leave room to be misinterpreted)

Bret

[kkantor]

Yes, unfair and a low blow. But not meant to be directed at you, specifically. I just thought it was a funny comment on human nature.

The point really, really, really, isn't what you heard. Nobody on earth can tell you what you heard. But I can posit an educated guess at what you would have heard if you had not been able to see the amps. Anyway, I don't think there is even a grain of truth to this particular assertion of Nelson Pass', at least as interpreted here.

I grow weary of debating about amp sound. 1% of the audiophile community will never be convinced by science. The other 99% has already voted with their dollars.

http://home.pacbell.net/drquad/jdunlavy.html

[Guest]

>I grow weary of debating about amp sound. 1% of the audiophile community will never be convinced by science. <

Just for the record; I'm completely willing to have science explain what I heard. And, like you, I am tired of debating it as well.

Maybe I'll have to pack a couple of amps and fly to Berkeley and bring my favorite blindfold.

Nah. . .

Bret

[Guest Sean]

That's very kind of you to say the least. We obviously have different perspectives on things but that does not mean that we can't enjoy a good cold brew together : )

Best wishes and good listening... Sean

>