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AR48s Compared to New Speakers


Guest RobH

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Hi,

Just found this forum and have some timely questions. I am currently trying to upgrade my 2 channel system.

Recently replaced an old Sony receiver with a new Marantz SR4021 and the difference is startling. It's dramatic even with the AR48s, which badly need refoaming.

I barely touched one of the surrounds with my finger and it disintegrated into a hole. I guess that's why they sound somewhat flat and dull, even though the new amp has made a great improvement.

We listen almost exclusively to classical music and opera and so real clean mid and upper range, undistorted sound is what I am looking for. Big booming bass is not that important to me.

So, if I fix up the AR48s how are they going to compare to a new mid level product. Right now Frys is closing out last years Polk RTi8s for $400 a pair. The new replacements, RTi A5s, are twice that price.

Anybody care to guess how the AR48s are going to sound for classical music compared to the RTi8s or some similar new product.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Rob

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Hi,

Just found this forum and have some timely questions. I am currently trying to upgrade my 2 channel system.

Recently replaced an old Sony receiver with a new Marantz SR4021 and the difference is startling. It's dramatic even with the AR48s, which badly need refoaming.

I barely touched one of the surrounds with my finger and it disintegrated into a hole. I guess that's why they sound somewhat flat and dull, even though the new amp has made a great improvement.

We listen almost exclusively to classical music and opera and so real clean mid and upper range, undistorted sound is what I am looking for. Big booming bass is not that important to me.

So, if I fix up the AR48s how are they going to compare to a new mid level product. Right now Frys is closing out last years Polk RTi8s for $400 a pair. The new replacements, RTi A5s, are twice that price.

Anybody care to guess how the AR48s are going to sound for classical music compared to the RTi8s or some similar new product.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Rob

Can't speak knowledgeably to your question regarding sound comparisons, but I can tell you this:

If you continue to play your current speakers with the bad surrounds you will ruin them (the woofers). Surrounds are relatively inexpensive to service whether you do it yourself or pay someone else to do it, as compared to buying comparable new speakers. Properly serviced they will sound as good or better than they ever have. I don't think you could like them any less. You should be just as happy with them as you ever were, even more so with your new receiver.

Fix them first and then decide. They'll then be in sell able condition if you find you need something else. You can apply the proceeds from that sale to new speakers if that's the case.

Make the decision with YOUR ears and your reference.

Good luck,

Craig

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Welcome Rob!

Craig is absolutely right on both points: STOP playing the speakers with bad surrounds and then replace those surrounds!

Refoaming is not difficult if you have some patience and dexterity. Step-by-step instructions here:

http://www.citlink.net/~msound/refoam/

MSound is an excellent source for the kit and good email support. The kit for 2 woofers is about $25.

If you really don't have the confidence or desire to do it yourself, there are a number of good shops to do the job for you. Ask here and you will get a number of recommendations.

btw--there is some literature on the 48s in the "Library" section, here:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library...series_manuals/

Good luck

Kent

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I suggest that you take a close look at the midrange edge suspension. They were

hard and cracking on the pair that I worked on:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...53&hl=AR48s

Also make sure that each of the drivers is operational, otherwise you might have

more parts to replace.

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Welcome Rob!

Craig is absolutely right on both points: STOP playing the speakers with bad surrounds and then replace those surrounds!

Refoaming is not difficult if you have some patience and dexterity. Step-by-step instructions here:

http://www.citlink.net/~msound/refoam/

MSound is an excellent source for the kit and good email support. The kit for 2 woofers is about $25.

If you really don't have the confidence or desire to do it yourself, there are a number of good shops to do the job for you. Ask here and you will get a number of recommendations.

btw--there is some literature on the 48s in the "Library" section, here:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library...series_manuals/

Good luck

Kent

Kent,

Thanks for the reply and the link to the refoaming instructions. Those are the best I've seen so far. I take it that shimming is essential, which makes sense to me, although several kit suppliers say it isn't necessary and don't include the shims.

Based on your comments and others, I have stopped using the speakers. Actually, I haven't used them since punching a hole in the surround.

Thanks for the help.

Rob

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ALL SOUND ADVICE! (Pun.....ah well)

If you decide to do the surrounds yourself, you may want to consider an alternative to shims for your voice coil alignment.

Rather than shims, use a 30Hz test tone played at very low volume while attaching the surround material to the basket.

I prefer this method when dealing with ancient drivers of unknown condition, as it is "dynamic".

It also eliminates a sometimes tedious step, (WHITE JBL cones come to mind).

First, attach the new surround to the cone and allow to dry overnight.

Then, attach the outer edge to the frame while gently playing your test tone.

This method has proven almost foolproof.

I have, on rare occasion, had voice coil rubbing with the use of shims due to unforeseen spider issues.

When I'm definitely NOT going to do a complete re-cone, but only a surround refresh, I prefer this method.

It has never failed me. (Knock on wood ;) )

Regards,

Craig

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Craig,

Great idea. Seems a lot simpler than fooling around with shims, dust caps, etc.

I assume you get the 30Hz signal off of a test CD. Any suggestions for what to buy?

Thanks,

Rob

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Great idea. Seems a lot simpler than fooling around with shims, dust caps, etc.

FWIW sooling around with shims and dust caps is not difficult--a minor part of the whole process

Kent

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Craig,

Great idea. Seems a lot simpler than fooling around with shims, dust caps, etc.

I assume you get the 30Hz signal off of a test CD. Any suggestions for what to buy?

Thanks,

Rob

I can send you a disc for a few bucks.

If you're interested you can PM me your mailing address.

Craig

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FWIW sooling around with shims and dust caps is not difficult--a minor part of the whole process

Kent

OK, I'm back to using shims. My main concern is the dust cap. I worry about cutting the cone when removing it and then getting it back on again centered. Maybe it's not as difficult as it sounds.

Thanks,

Rob

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OK, I'm back to using shims. My main concern is the dust cap. I worry about cutting the cone when removing it and then getting it back on again centered. Maybe it's not as difficult as it sounds.

Thanks,

Rob

Yes, not "difficult" at all. Just time consuming, and an unnecessary opportunity for error and or other problems. Especially for a first time novice.

I've seen a few people in my life that can draw a perfect circle free hand; even fewer that can reassemble a dynamic driver that doesn't scream "kitchen table redo" after it's done. I disturb only what's needed when dealing with 30+ years old drivers when I'm patching them with a new edge. I like to preserve as much as possible the factory look and precision. Applying adhesives WELL is an art form.

Please don't misunderstand me here; I LOVE the fact that quality surround kits are available for most popular drivers. I use them frequently. In some instances they're your only option and keep many a fine old classic up and running. But at the end of the day, they are what they are: an after market patch. I don't make work for myself when the new surround may, or may not even be of the same compliance. A 30Hz tone will provide as good or better alignment as shims when dealing with re-edging ONLY. I know a lot of people feel more confident of the outcome when they use the shims, and that's cool with me. I feel more confident when I can HEAR what the driver is doing during the process. Several times the test tone method has saved me wasting a kit on a driver that had issues, but that measured good; DCR and cone height.

When I'm doing drivers worthy of a RE-CONE or course I use shims.

To each his own.

God speed

Craig

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I suggest that you take a close look at the midrange edge suspension. They were

hard and cracking on the pair that I worked on:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...53&hl=AR48s

Also make sure that each of the drivers is operational, otherwise you might have

more parts to replace.

Pete B.

I just got around to reading your linked AR48 repair analysis and really appreciate the work you put into it.

I'm new to this forum, but get the impression that the AR48s are not a common model that anyone cares much about. They don't appear to be in the same vintage class as the AR1s, AR3s, etc.

So I wonder if you got them working, and if so, what you think about the sound quality. Particularly compared to the other ARs that are more popular. Also compared to current mid priced speakers.

If I do decide to decide to keep them, the woofers definitely need refoaming. But I can’t quite decide about the 4" mid ranges. The surrounds on those do not appear to be foam. They are white and fairly solid, so I'm concerned that foam may be the wrong material.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob

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Hi Rob,

I may as well put my 2 cents worth in (1 cent if you take the exchange rate into account) .

You sound confused and disappointed in your speakers, Why so?

Just because they are post classic or beyond doesn't mean they are crap, what you have is a piece of

AR history! Not many people have them, which makes you one of a few people who do!

Try to re-foam your woofers if you can, if not pay a professional to do it for you; go one step at a time.

The AR48s are a 3 way speaker which should have a better range than a 2way speaker.

How many other AR speakers have you heard? Unless you listen to other AR speakers in the same room

the difference in sound might not be that great.

Anyway, you have them now, why not use them as a stepping stone to bigger, older and more expensive

classic speakers?

Good luck with your decision making!

ken

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I think a little perspective is in order here. Your essential question is, “Are the AR-48’s good enough to warrant the time/effort/expense necessary to fully refurbish them?”

That’s a very legitimate question.

In the time frame that the 48 was introduced—the mid-‘80’s—the US audio/speaker market was quite a bit different that it was during AR’s heyday of the ‘60’s-early’70’s. Early on, as has been well-documented here and elsewhere, AR easily stood out from its competitors because of its amazing technological innovations, and also because there just weren’t a large number of significant competitors. The audio market of the ‘60’s was a much smaller-scale concern than it was some 20-odd years later, when there were literally hundreds of speaker manufacturers crowding into the market.

In the 1960’s, there was no Polk, no Boston Acoustics, no Bose (not until 1968, and then just with the high-end 901), no Definitive Technology, no Energy, Mirage, Paradigm, no Advent (not until 1969) and most of the big UK brands like B&W, KEF, Monitor, etc. had virtually no significant US market presence until the early/mid-70’s or later.

Given these market realities, it was relatively easy for individual AR speaker models like the 4 or 2ax or 3a to stand out from the crowd. By time the 48 came along, the playing field had changed considerably, and no single brand or model had the market presence and notoriety that AR enjoyed two decades earlier.

That being said, the AR-48, was a perfectly fine loudspeaker. A 10” 3-way design (kind of a direct descendant of the AR-12, which was more or less a descendant of the 2ax/5), it was capable of solid bass response down into the mid-50Hz region, with a smooth, well-dispersed midrange and treble range. A set of properly restored 48’s today would give an excellent account of themselves and be well worth having.

Steve F.

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I think a little perspective is in order here. Your essential question is, “Are the AR-48’s good enough to warrant the time/effort/expense necessary to fully refurbish them?”

That’s a very legitimate question.

In the time frame that the 48 was introduced—the mid-‘80’s—the US audio/speaker market was quite a bit different that it was during AR’s heyday of the ‘60’s-early’70’s. Early on, as has been well-documented here and elsewhere, AR easily stood out from its competitors because of its amazing technological innovations, and also because there just weren’t a large number of significant competitors. The audio market of the ‘60’s was a much smaller-scale concern than it was some 20-odd years later, when there were literally hundreds of speaker manufacturers crowding into the market.

In the 1960’s, there was no Polk, no Boston Acoustics, no Bose (not until 1968, and then just with the high-end 901), no Definitive Technology, no Energy, Mirage, Paradigm, no Advent (not until 1969) and most of the big UK brands like B&W, KEF, Monitor, etc. had virtually no significant US market presence until the early/mid-70’s or later.

Given these market realities, it was relatively easy for individual AR speaker models like the 4 or 2ax or 3a to stand out from the crowd. By time the 48 came along, the playing field had changed considerably, and no single brand or model had the market presence and notoriety that AR enjoyed two decades earlier.

That being said, the AR-48, was a perfectly fine loudspeaker. A 10” 3-way design (kind of a direct descendant of the AR-12, which was more or less a descendant of the 2ax/5), it was capable of solid bass response down into the mid-50Hz region, with a smooth, well-dispersed midrange and treble range. A set of properly restored 48’s today would give an excellent account of themselves and be well worth having.

Steve F.

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I think a little perspective is in order here. Your essential question is, “Are the AR-48’s good enough to warrant the time/effort/expense necessary to fully refurbish them?”

That’s a very legitimate question.

In the time frame that the 48 was introduced—the mid-‘80’s—the US audio/speaker market was quite a bit different that it was during AR’s heyday of the ‘60’s-early’70’s. Early on, as has been well-documented here and elsewhere, AR easily stood out from its competitors because of its amazing technological innovations, and also because there just weren’t a large number of significant competitors. The audio market of the ‘60’s was a much smaller-scale concern than it was some 20-odd years later, when there were literally hundreds of speaker manufacturers crowding into the market.

In the 1960’s, there was no Polk, no Boston Acoustics, no Bose (not until 1968, and then just with the high-end 901), no Definitive Technology, no Energy, Mirage, Paradigm, no Advent (not until 1969) and most of the big UK brands like B&W, KEF, Monitor, etc. had virtually no significant US market presence until the early/mid-70’s or later.

Given these market realities, it was relatively easy for individual AR speaker models like the 4 or 2ax or 3a to stand out from the crowd. By time the 48 came along, the playing field had changed considerably, and no single brand or model had the market presence and notoriety that AR enjoyed two decades earlier.

That being said, the AR-48, was a perfectly fine loudspeaker. A 10” 3-way design (kind of a direct descendant of the AR-12, which was more or less a descendant of the 2ax/5), it was capable of solid bass response down into the mid-50Hz region, with a smooth, well-dispersed midrange and treble range. A set of properly restored 48’s today would give an excellent account of themselves and be well worth having.

Steve F.

Steve,

Thanks for restating my question so succinctly. You are right; the issue is a time/effort/expense trade off versus the output sound quality of the result.

My main interest is the rich enjoyment of classical music. I'm not really into speaker refurbishment although I know many here are. It might be an interesting past time, but I'm not really looking for another one right now. I just wish I could spend more time on woodworking and listening to music as it is

I think I'll take your advice along with that of others and at least refoam the 10" drivers. Beyond that we'll see. The caps are all electrolytics and probably should be replaced also to really peak up performance.

Thanks again for the advice and the excellent recap of speaker industry history from the 60s through the 80s. Sounds like you must have been involved to be so knowledgeable.

Rob

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I think asking other people whose tastes, likes, and dislikes you do not know, intimately, "how does it sound" as compared to (fill in the blank here with nothing in particular) questions is a complete waste of time and have led to more bad buying decisions and remorse than anything else under the Sun with the possible exception of audio porn rags like "Stereophool" which prey on insecurity and the buyer's need for validation.

It's a worthless exercise and is pointless without some sort of common reference.

Good luck with your project,

Craig

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Pete B.

I just got around to reading your linked AR48 repair analysis and really appreciate the work you put into it.

I'm new to this forum, but get the impression that the AR48s are not a common model that anyone cares much about. They don't appear to be in the same vintage class as the AR1s, AR3s, etc.

So I wonder if you got them working, and if so, what you think about the sound quality. Particularly compared to the other ARs that are more popular. Also compared to current mid priced speakers.

If I do decide to decide to keep them, the woofers definitely need refoaming. But I can’t quite decide about the 4" mid ranges. The surrounds on those do not appear to be foam. They are white and fairly solid, so I'm concerned that foam may be the wrong material.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob

Hi Rob,

You say that your mid surrounds are hard, that is a problem, they should be

soft. These were so brittle that they just cracked. I don't know why AR used

this material but I have obtained foam replacements that I expect will work

just fine. I've not gotten around to finishing these as no one is waiting for them

and they're not a top priority for me.

The 10" woofer ARs don't really interest me very much but somehow I've ended

up with several of them over the years.

Mine also has a blown tweeter and one woofer with a voice coil rub.

Yours probably need woofer and mid foams, and crossover caps, a lot of work for

what I would call a just an OK speaker. If you enjoy the work then of course go ahead.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Jason Miller

I just replaced surrounds on 10" AR woofers. some of the best prices I found are here. If you look at the size of these. they work with AR 10" and are very cheap to buy. http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZbootapest2 They seam like great surrounds for the money. don't buy one of those kits that come with glue and shims. if you take your time you dont need to shim. before the glue dries press down on the woofer to see if you hear or feel the voice coil rubbing. if you do pull up on the outside edges and press down a few times and they will sell level then just run your finger around the outside edge again. then press down again to make sure they are not rubbing. the glue in those kits on ebay is white elmers glue. It works just fine for speakers but its very slow drying. and you have to keep your eye on it and if it starts to come up run your finger around it again. I am sure someone here has insturctions on how to refoam speakers.

also the shims they give you. they want you to cut open the the center cap to put peaces of plastic around the voice coil to aline it. alot of the kids just have cut up plastic cups. I never had to use shims replacing surrounds. I always use slow drying glue so i can pull it back up and then try again until it doesn't rub. most of the time it doesn't rub on the first try. one of the AR 10" woofers I just did. I had to lift it back up 3 times until it didn't rub. and they sound sweet!

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Hi Rob,

You say that your mid surrounds are hard, that is a problem, they should be

soft. These were so brittle that they just cracked. I don't know why AR used

this material but I have obtained foam replacements that I expect will work

just fine. I've not gotten around to finishing these as no one is waiting for them

and they're not a top priority for me.

The 10" woofer ARs don't really interest me very much but somehow I've ended

up with several of them over the years.

Mine also has a blown tweeter and one woofer with a voice coil rub.

Yours probably need woofer and mid foams, and crossover caps, a lot of work for

what I would call a just an OK speaker. If you enjoy the work then of course go ahead.

Pete,

I had the both the 10" and 4" drivers refoamed professionally. You were right about the mid surrounds being hard and cracked. They definitely needed replacement.

I've already invested $150 to get the refoaming done and made that decision after auditioning several new speakers in the $1000 per pair range. I'm not sure what you mean by these being a just OK speaker, but to my ear it would take a $2000 per pair set to even come close. Maybe I missed something in my auditioning, but from what I heard the decision to repair these was easy.

I'm curious about your comment on the crossover caps. They are non-polar electrolytics and advice that I have seen here and also heard from some local experts is that they probably don't need replacement. I don't have a capacitance meter, so there is no practical way to test them short of removing them and sending them to someone. That's a lot of work that I would just as soon avoid, but would do it if I thought it was likely to make a difference. Any additional comment or information from you would be appreciated.

Thanks for your input.

Rob

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Guest Jason Miller
Pete,

I had the both the 10" and 4" drivers refoamed professionally. You were right about the mid surrounds being hard and cracked. They definitely needed replacement.

I've already invested $150 to get the refoaming done and made that decision after auditioning several new speakers in the $1000 per pair range. I'm not sure what you mean by these being a just OK speaker, but to my ear it would take a $2000 per pair set to even come close. Maybe I missed something in my auditioning, but from what I heard the decision to repair these was easy.

I'm curious about your comment on the crossover caps. They are non-polar electrolytics and advice that I have seen here and also heard from some local experts is that they probably don't need replacement. I don't have a capacitance meter, so there is no practical way to test them short of removing them and sending them to someone. That's a lot of work that I would just as soon avoid, but would do it if I thought it was likely to make a difference. Any additional comment or information from you would be appreciated.

Thanks for your input.

Rob

wow it cost that much? I have been doing it for people on craigslist. I was charge 30 dollars per pair to replace surrounds on 8" woofers. $40 for 10", 50 for 12" and 60 for 15" woofers. No wonder why i get so many emails. I have 3 pairs that belong to a guy in lancaster pa right now. I did two sets of AR-8 speakers in abou 3 hours . so I made 80 dollars. I am waiting for the parts for His last set of speakers they are realistic mach two speakers. the foam on his mids are going bad and I told him but he didn't want to pay to have it done right now. I could of done them for like 20 dollars more for the pair or so.

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wow it cost that much? I have been doing it for people on craigslist. I was charge 30 dollars per pair to replace surrounds on 8" woofers. $40 for 10", 50 for 12" and 60 for 15" woofers. No wonder why i get so many emails. I have 3 pairs that belong to a guy in lancaster pa right now. I did two sets of AR-8 speakers in abou 3 hours . so I made 80 dollars. I am waiting for the parts for His last set of speakers they are realistic mach two speakers. the foam on his mids are going bad and I told him but he didn't want to pay to have it done right now. I could of done them for like 20 dollars more for the pair or so.

Jason,

Look at my response to your question about refoaming costs on the other thread I started called "Crossover to speaker wire gauge." I provided a detailed cost breakdown in answering the same question you posed on that thread.

I used Orange County Speaker Repair and they are not cheap. However, I've been told by an expert that they are the best in the country for refoaming. And their technicians thoroughly test each speaker for its dynamic performance after the refoaming is done.

I won’t hear the results myself until I get the speakers reassembled, and that has to wait until I replace the lousy spring terminals on the back with proper banana jacks.

Rob

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