Cabinet Refinishing

[oldguide]

I have another interesting question for all of you. I am in the process of refinishing my AR cabinets. I ended up having to reveneer the top of one because it had deteriorated so badly due to my wife's inclination to use the speakers to hold plants (insert comeback in here). I found some material that is a perfect match, especially when the rest of the cabinet it resanded down to the bare veneer.

On the back of each speaker are still glued the original AR documents. They are a bit ragged, but not in bad shape. Obviously I want to keep them there, but the question becomes how to preserve them. My choices seem to be: varnish over them or apply a thin plastic covering (like on a picture or when you laminate a document). I am leaning toward the latter, but thought I would run it by the experts. Just as a note, the plastic would only be glued down around the edges.

BTW, I will probably not oil the cabinets but instead use high quality finishing wax. I have used this for other woodworking, furniture projects and really like the look. It's a great deal more time consuming--many coats and lots of buffing, sanding with each coat--but it looks great and I feel offers more protection than oil stain. Most of all, it shows off the grain in a way oil can't.

I also sanded down the back of the cabinet which is pine, and was unfinished on my speaker. My inclination is to finish this with wax also. Unfinished pine can get grungy pretty fast and applying the same oil to it as to the walnut would make it look different in a not so good way. I figured the AR people had some reason to not veneer or stain the back. Maybe it was just financial, but everything else in this speaker is done with such meticulous detail that I wonder if there was another reason. I though about veneering the back, but the documents prevent me from doing that since I don't even want to try to peel them off.

Take care.

[Mexicomike]

DO not varnish the paper! This will further damage it and it is NOT reversible. If you really want to preserve it there are a couple of approaches.

The best way - though inherently dangerous initially - is to remove the paper VERY carefully with a tiny spatula. Then photo-copy/scan the original and paste the copy on the speaker. Keep the original in plastic but ONLY polyethylene, polyester, or polypropylene. Many plastic document protectors in office stores are made of PVC which leaches acid and will ruin the document eventually (I know this from trying to preserve old photographs). If I really wanted to ensure the paper stayed "forever" in whatever condition it is now in, I think I'd do this.

You can do as you mentioned - cover the doc with plastic on the speaker but again, it needs to be the correct plastic AND remember that the back side of the paper is still against the wood and subject to the gassing effect of the wood itself and the stain in the wood. Putting plastic over where it can't breath at all it may actually cause more damage than doing nothing.

On the other hand, you could just reglue the paper in spots where it has come loose and let it go at that. The backs of the speakers shouldn't see too much abuse and once the papers are flattened out and reglued. This is what I did with my 1970 AR3As. I had parts of the paper detached and folded back - they looked a bit grim but now, after flattening and repasting - they look very good.

Keep in mind that the speaker paper itself is probably just normal paper - not acid free - so it eventually will degrade regardless of what you do with it.

[genek]

On the back of each speaker are still glued the original AR documents. They are a bit ragged, but not in bad shape. Obviously I want to keep them there, but the question becomes how to preserve them. My choices seem to be: varnish over them or apply a thin plastic covering (like on a picture or when you laminate a document). I am leaning toward the latter, but thought I would run it by the experts. Just as a note, the plastic would only be glued down around the edges.

Anything that is nonporous, such as plastic, will trap moisture in the air and accelerate the eventual disintegration of the paper due to the acids in it. If you can manage to get the paper off you can photocopy it as Mike suggests (use a color copier to duplicate that aged, yellowed look), or scan it to a bitmap so you can reproduce it on a color laserprinter anytime you want. If you can't remove the paper and it's become fragile, I'd provide it with a physical shield by stapling a sheet of drafting vellum over it. That way you can wax the back if you want and not have to worry about how you're going to glue or tape something to a waxed surface.

[genek]

The best way - though inherently dangerous initially - is to remove the paper VERY carefully with a tiny spatula. Then photo-copy/scan the original and paste the copy on the speaker. Keep the original in plastic but ONLY polyethylene, polyester, or polypropylene. Many plastic document protectors in office stores are made of PVC which leaches acid and will ruin the document eventually (I know this from trying to preserve old photographs). If I really wanted to ensure the paper stayed "forever" in whatever condition it is now in, I think I'd do this.

Try to find someplace that still carries glassine envelopes. Glassine is an acid-free, trnalucent, polished archival paper that is made moisture resistant enough to protect against spills and other "wet," but still breathes well enough to not trap moisture.

[JKent]

Oldguide--I'd be interested to know where you found a good match for the veneer. I've used veneer from Rockler's, and although it is walnut, it is much darker and closer-grained than the original. A friend speculated it may be "new growth" vs "old growth."

Mike--as for varnishing, what about a water-based product, such as "Mod Podge" or even water-based varnish?

Gene-- some good suggestions. Maybe members could upload scans of labels etc. I know I have a couple of such scans myself I would be happy to have Mark post in the Library.

Kent

[oldguide]

Vellum and glassine are BRILLIANT ideas. I delicately tried to remove the paper, but it is very old and fragile and practically welded to the back. I started in a tiny area in a corner and that was enough to convince me it could not be done.

I did get the veneer at Rocklers. They even had it on sale--$13 for enough to do the top of one speaker with enough left over for another. I went to their store and looked at several of their adhesive-backed rolls to find one that matched closely (I brought along the veneer I had carefully peeled off to insure the match). Two things were apparent: the veneers Rockler sells vary in color and grain so you almost have to go to the store and go through them like you go to the lumber yard for the right piece of wood. I also noticed some variation--as you would expect--in the grain and color of the two speakers. Perhaps I just got lucky since one of my speakers is a bit dark. I suspect that is why they oiled them because that way you can get a consistent finish.

BTW, you know there are two kinds of walnut, at least according to a friend who is a custom furniture builder, one darker than the other.

The tricky thing about oil and veneer is you have to be very careful sanding it down to the original color. My advice to anyone wanting to reveneer would be to pick up the veneer before starting on the speakers. Here you just want a pretty close grain match--and be sure to apply the veneer grain in the right direction (I almost didn't). You will have to sand and then varnish the chipboard underneath to get a good bond. Apply the veneer and then sand down the AR veneer until you get the right color match.

One other thought I had regarding the color issue. Rockler's stick-on veneers come in tubes which they have in a rack in the store. When I was there someone else was picking through them also, then sticking them back in the tube.

Final note--Rockler's veneers are much thinner than the AR originals. The thickness of the entire veneer with backing is a close match, but the percentage of real wood is much less. It is very prone to chipping and don't even think about sanding it. Steel wool works best. Rockler also had a walnut wood putty that while not a perfect match at least served well to cover the spots where my veneer had chipped.

I went to Rockler's just because I have known them since back when they were called the Woodworker's Store (which was bought out by Rockler). I have to admit since they have become a chain, their quality has suffered a bit.

Finally made sure the wife knows what a pain in the rear this is so no more plants get put on the speakers.

[genek]

BTW, you know there are two kinds of walnut, at least according to a friend who is a custom furniture builder, one darker than the other.

The tricky thing about oil and veneer is you have to be very careful sanding it down to the original color. My advice to anyone wanting to reveneer would be to pick up the veneer before starting on the speakers. Here you just want a pretty close grain match--and be sure to apply the veneer grain in the right direction (I almost didn't). You will have to sand and then varnish the chipboard underneath to get a good bond. Apply the veneer and then sand down the AR veneer until you get the right color match.

Probably more like three or four, but two is what you normally find at retail. If you're sanding the remaining original veneer down to bare wood it becomes easier to pick veneer that comes close, but no matter how you do it, expect to be finishing/refinishing the new and old veneer separately. If it was me, I would probably take the coward's way out and finish the whole cabinet in a color slightly darker than the original so I could build up color on the lighter panel/s first, then darken the entire unit at once. But check with your funiture-building friend.

As far as your wife and plants are concerned, invest in some nice lacquer trays to go on top of the speakers. Better yet, build a bookcase for them.

[Mexicomike]

I'm certainly no expert on preserving paper but my understanding is that any coating is not a good thing because it permanently alters the paper and may make it degrade faster. It also usually discolors it. Museums, etc never coat paper they are trying to preserve.

Many years ago I wanted to preserve some original block-printed paper that was on an antique harpsichord I was restoring. I thought shellac might be a good thing so I found a small piece of paper that was not on a visible surface and shellacked it. The black ink on the paper immediately absorbed the shellac and litterally "grew"/ran, ruining the little piece. Needless to say, I left the paper alone! I did further research at the time and basically, the way such paper is preserved is to put it (and whatever it's on) in a controlled environment...

Of course, we are not talking about the Magna Carta here...

[dynaco_dan]

Try to find someplace that still carries glassine envelopes. Glassine is an acid-free, trnalucent, polished archival paper that is made moisture resistant enough to protect against spills and other "wet," but still breathes well enough to not trap moisture.

Hi there;

I used to collect old postage stamps.

Our old general post offices here used to sometimes gives us our purchased stamps in a glassine envelope.

As a hobby, stamp shops, should have pieces up to the size of full sheets of stamps available.

Possibly coin shops used them for paper money as well.

They sold a glassine semi-envelope to accommodate the full-size stamp sheets.

Hope that helps you in a direction at least.

[oldguide]

Dan, thanks for the recommendation about glassine. We also have some stamp collecti8ng places around here so I might try there.

I have varnished over paper documents and not seen any changes, but they were not as "important" as this one. I think the precautions and alternative solutions advanced here make a great case.

As for the veneer process, I suppose it depends on the final step. If you are going to stain, then by all means take it down and then match. But if you are going to wax, then there is no stain to darken to make the match (although you can wax over a stain). That's why I wonder if veneering first and then taking the stained part down to where it matches makes more sense.

[dynaco_dan]

Dan, thanks for the recommendation about glassine. We also have some stamp collecti8ng places around here so I might try there.

I have varnished over paper documents and not seen any changes, but they were not as "important" as this one. I think the precautions and alternative solutions advanced here make a great case.

As for the veneer process, I suppose it depends on the final step. If you are going to stain, then by all means take it down and then match. But if you are going to wax, then there is no stain to darken to make the match (although you can wax over a stain). That's why I wonder if veneering first and then taking the stained part down to where it matches makes more sense.

Hi again;

Maybe try at a photography store, they may also have special storage sheets.

[genek]

That's why I wonder if veneering first and then taking the stained part down to where it matches makes more sense.

Practically impossible, at least as far as color goes.

My preference is to take the existing veneer to bare wood, try to find new veneer that comes as close as possible, matching grain being more important than matching color, then refinish after reveneering. Wash all the veneered faces with a very light stain to see how the old and new wood take color, then apply additional washes as needed to the lighter face/s until they come up gradually to match the darker. Let everything dry, rub out and then apply your finish. Be sure to pick stains and finishes that are compatible so your finish won't dissolve your stain.

[Mexicomike]

Here are "before and after pics of the paper on the back of one of my 3A's. THe other speaker was essentially the same. I made no attempt to "preserve" the paper at all.

[script56]

I see the veneer at the rocklers website. exactly what type would be closest to an original ar3a veneer. The pressure sensitive or double veneer?

[oldguide]

Had not realized this thread wouldgo on this long. As Imentioned before I WOULD NOT buy veneer online. (It says right on the tube "contents may not match illustrations.") Aside from the issue of color transference on a monitor what some people call walnut varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. If at all possible I would take a very small piece--or at least a picture--along with me.Then you have to actually look at the veneer.

What I used was "Rockler 24x24 Pressure Sensitive Veneer" in Walnut (the boxes for my AR3s say they are walnut). The SKU on the tube is 0000061278. If I had to do it again I might go with the following: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2217&site=ROCKLER

I have not done veneering for awhile (been spending too much time at Mayo), but would like to try one of the time-rated titebond glues.

BTW with this stuff it is VERY important to have an absolutely level/smooth surface. By that I mean the veneer is thin enough that if the surface is not level you will get bubbles over time because of the air pockets. Sand the base as smooth as if you were sanding the final coat on an actual finish.