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AR turntable Trivia 1


dynaco_dan

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Hi there;

It would be interesting to see how many members here have one or more AR turntables, of differing models even, both in storage or in use.

AR produced over 350,000 AR turntables during it's lifetime, from 1961 - about 1973.

Unless mentioned otherwise, I am referring to the AR-XA specifically here, but it may also refer to other models, such as the, AR-XB as well.

The AR-TA, 1962, single speed, was the first one produced, 2 motors, 2 belts, solid walnut base, nickel finished aluminum arm and steel T-beam.

The AR-XA 1962 - 1973, 2 speed turntable, was by far the most popular and widely sold model.

They used both Philips and Haydon (1159) drive motors, the Haydon was considered the better of the two by AR.

You will of course need to remove the masonite base cover (1186) to see which model of motor it has.

For some accepted, at least by AR, but clearly unexplained reason, when the power cord is plugged in, but the power switch is off, there is a very slight vibration from the motor.

For the AR-XA models, the drive belt (978) stretches and deteriorates in time but a suitable replacement can be purchased from any supplier that stocks tape deck belts.

There is only the one size, at least for the AR-XA model, I do not have that length at this time, and they only cost around $5.00 each.

The correct size is important, if it is too tight, the bearings will wear and if too loose, there will be belt slippage.

A sprinkle of Talc powder on it once a year, will help.

If you remove the main platter, use caution, there is a ball bearing (996) which usually sticks to the bottom of the main spindle.

This is also true with the tone arm spindle.

You can use a light and see if the white flat nylon disk bearing (1092) is still sitting on the bottom of the well.

If you have cleaned out the bearing hole and platter shaft, with a lint free cloth, add about 8 - 10 drops of 10 weight motor oil to the well before, re-seating the platter.

Be certain not to get any oil on the belt or pullies.

I have not read anything to the contrary, DO NOT OIL THE MOTOR.

The tonearm has a dampening device, built-in, to slow desent of the tonearm, if it should be dropped.

This can be de-activated, if desired.

The tonearm pivots on 2 very small conical bearing screws and should be very carefully adjusted to just stop it's floppy side to side wobble.

Tighten them too much and the arm will hang-up.

The cable and arm total capacitance is 135 pf and if required, make-up capacitors can be added underboard to increase this to match a particular cartridge, for extreme accuracy.

If for some reason, you need to add more weight to the headshell, glueing a penny to the underside of the cartridge headshell works best, it is non-magnetic.

The only conflict that stands out in my memory was the commentary of hum created or induced by a particular Grado cartridge, an early version only.

This may or may not have been using only the AR-TA dual motor version.

Other than that, there was always the criticism about the tonearm hanging up, no anti-skating, no cue control and could not track a low as Shure SME or Decca arms.

Myself, if I had been asked for feedback, I would have suggested a larger finger hold, it is a lttle too small for my fingers and slightly higher.

What the AR turntable did offer was, low cost to the masses, reliable, quiet, simple operation, tonearm included, accessories included, no acoustic feedback and outstandingly fine warantee, including shipping, parts, and labour for 3 years (initally one year).

Pretty hard to beat.

There have been a number of modifications done to the AR turntables.

The Audio Amatuer magazine published a few mods.

Merrill does have numerous mods for a price, available.

LA Audiophile did a mod or two as well.

Stereophile did a mod as well.

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It would be interesting to see how many members here have one or more AR turntables, of differing models even, both in storage or in use.

My table is one of the early models. I don't know if it should be considered a "TA," as it does not have an offical model name below the "AR Turntable" on the label in the area where the XA says "Model XA." The serial number is "TT-20404."

I have a Grado Black cartridge on the table, and have not noticed any appreciable hum even with the amp turned to volumes that would damage my speakers if there was any signal coming from the table (I used headphones to check for hum).

Yes, the tone arm pivot can hang due to the delrin bearing. I just have to follow the instructions for tightening the spindle and then backing it off periodically, and exercise it a bit if I let it sit for more than a few days between uses and it's fine. The delrin bearing in the platter has never hung up.

Belts:

All AR turntables from original through XB used the same drive belt. Flat, 23.6 inner circumference, .135 wide, .030 thick, PRB# FRY23.6. I think this belt may also be the same one that's used on the 1980's turntables as well.

The starting belt for the two-motor table is Square, 6.7 inner circumference, .035 square CS, PRB# SCY6.7.

The lowest prices I've seen lately are $4.15 for the drive belt and $1.30 for the startup belt, at www.ued.net

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Guest matty g

The only conflict that stands out in my memory was the commentary of hum created or induced by a particular Grado cartridge, an early version only.

Vern -

Thanks for the turntable writeup. I have had several XA two motor models and two XB models which I used for years with almost no trouble. I have, however, had quite a bit of trouble with the Grado cartridges (black, blue and red) humming in all of the turntables that I've used them in. In all of the AR turntables the hum became excessive when the tonearm was brought to the center of the platter (near the end of the record). This also occured in several Dual 12 and 10 series tables, so it wasn't just the AR that had a problem with them. The worst case was with a Grado Red in my Thorens 125 MKII. This actually produced an oscillation so violent that the woofers would bottom out unless the bass was backed down (apparently it was reacting to the speed regulation electronics). This is a shame, as the Grado carts sound very natural when they aren't humming. I have found that the AR turntable arm seems to be well matched with Shure upper series carts, and they seem to require less shimming and fooling with to get the height properly adjusted. Many of those tables were sold through EJ Korvettes here in the US, and they were offering a discount on the Empire 888p (orange stylus) cartridge when you purchased the turntable - a very popular combination at the time.

Matt

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My table is one of the early models. I don't know if it should be considered a "TA," as it does not have an offical model name below the "AR Turntable" on the label in the area where the XA says "Model XA." The serial number is "TT-20404."

I have a Grado Black cartridge on the table, and have not noticed any appreciable hum even with the amp turned to volumes that would damage my speakers if there was any signal coming from the table (I used headphones to check for hum).

Yes, the tone arm pivot can hang due to the delrin bearing. I just have to follow the instructions for tightening the spindle and then backing it off periodically, and exercise it a bit if I let it sit for more than a few days between uses and it's fine. The delrin bearing in the platter has never hung up.

Belts:

All AR turntables from original through XB used the same drive belt. Flat, 23.6 inner circumference, .135 wide, .030 thick, PRB# FRY23.6. I think this belt may also be the same one that's used on the 1980's turntables as well.

The starting belt for the two-motor table is Square, 6.7 inner circumference, .035 square CS, PRB# SCY6.7.

The lowest prices I've seen lately are $4.15 for the drive belt and $1.30 for the startup belt, at www.ued.net

Hi there;

You have the original AR-TA model turntable.

It will be interesting from a collectors point of view on how many of this model were made.

Thank you for the photos, belt information and a possible source for the belts.

Your's is from the early 1960's, what else do you know of that is still here after all this time and still running like a clock (pun intended).

I have read on another site a small amount about the same model turntable and Delrin and it's production problems, when AR first used it for turntable parts.

Apparently it first appeared to be the ideal material for it's intended purposes.

The material was suppose to be very stable, but it appears in hindsight not to be.

What apparently happened was, in the case of the well for the platter shaft at least, they drilled and presumedly reamed the hole and in about a month the hole had shrunk smaller.

It shrunk just enough, to sometimes cause the shaft to seize or at least increased friction and load the motor, which of course meant that music slowed dooowwwnnn too.

This was also the case with the tonearm's post and it's well and pivot bearings also.

Someone else came along later with a supposed cure but it also failed.

I assume the pressure was now on them to find an alternative material in each case or lose money.

The AR turntable is another item on my list that I wished I had invented, DARN. LOL

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I've always wondered about the "TA" designation, and have long suspected that somebody online dubbed it "TA" because their table's serial number began with "TA" rather than "XA" and the name just stuck. I've only seen it in non-official websites and articles and not in any AR literature. The owner's manual simply says "The AR Turntable," there is no "Model TA" anywhere on it externally or internally, and in all articles I've seen in which Edgar Villchur or other early AR alumni discuss it, they simply refer to "early versions of the turntable." I'd really like to see something published by AR that says anything about the original table having a model name, "TA" or otherwise.

The sales receipt for this table is from Leonard Radio in NYC and is dated Dec, 1961. During this table's life it has had its belts, platter mat, dustcover, logo plate and cartridge replaced (it was not originally shipped with a cartridge from the factory) and has had some small paint touchups here and there on its plinth, but otherwise what you see in the photos is original parts and finishes.

The original (failed) "fixes" for delrin were redrills. These were followed by retrofitting the tables with delrin parts with pressed-in oilite sleeves (you posted a photo of one of these a while back, mine missed getting retrofitted), then by replacing the screwed-in delrin with the pressed-in oilite cups that cause so many people headaches when they mod the T-bar for other arms. Mine doesn't seem to suffer from any platter bearing issues, as a strobe disc shows its 33 speed to be spot-on.

For 45s, I designed a motor pulley and had it custom-machined back in the 80's. In order to change speeds it is necessary to remove both belts, switch motor pulleys and reseat the belts. The upside of this is that the pulleys have gotten switched often enough that they have never locked onto the motor shaft.

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I've always wondered about the "TA" designation, and have long suspected that somebody online dubbed it "TA" because their table's serial number began with "TA" rather than "XA" and the name just stuck. I've only seen it in non-official websites and articles and not in any AR literature. The owner's manual simply says "The AR Turntable," there is no "Model TA" anywhere on it externally or internally, and in all articles I've seen in which Edgar Villchur or other early AR alumni discuss it, they simply refer to "early versions of the turntable." I'd really like to see something published by AR that says anything about the original table having a model name, "TA" or otherwise.

The sales receipt for this table is from Leonard Radio in NYC and is dated Dec, 1961. During this table's life it has had its belts, platter mat, dustcover, logo plate and cartridge replaced (it was not originally shipped with a cartridge from the factory) and has had some small paint touchups here and there on its plinth, but otherwise what you see in the photos is original parts and finishes.

The original (failed) "fixes" for delrin were redrills. These were followed by retrofitting the tables with delrin parts with pressed-in oilite sleeves (you posted a photo of one of these a while back, mine missed getting retrofitted), then by replacing the screwed-in delrin with the pressed-in oilite cups that cause so many people headaches when they mod the T-bar for other arms. Mine doesn't seem to suffer from any platter bearing issues, as a strobe disc shows its 33 speed to be spot-on.

For 45s, I designed a motor pulley and had it custom-machined back in the 80's. In order to change speeds it is necessary to remove both belts, switch motor pulleys and reseat the belts. The upside of this is that the pulleys have gotten switched often enough that they have never locked onto the motor shaft.

Hi there;

I do not know where the AR-TA comes from.

Sort of funny for the first model designation.

Unless it is T for tuntable and A for series A.

I owned a well rated super cheap Grado BTR back in the sixties, I believe.

I think it was like $15.00 only.

I just didn't remember where I read about the hummer model and the comment was directed only to the AR tuntable at that time.

This was before my Stanton 681EE and A stylus came along, re Stereophile's J. Gordon Holt review, and then I retired the Grado.

As a side note, I see that a mint AR turntable brings in a good dollar on Ebay today.

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I do not know where the AR-TA comes from.

Sort of funny for the first model designation.

Unless it is T for tuntable and A for series A.

My theory is that since XA's have serial numbers beginning with "XA-" and XB's with "XB-" somebody with an old table concluded that it must be a "TA" because that's what the serial began with. However, I suspect that pre-XA tables with TA, TT (like mine) or other serial numbers don't really have an AR-official model name/number at all, and are just generically named "the AR turntable." When AR introduced their next-generation tables in the 1980's the first of them was just called "The AR Turntable," and I think it was a nod to the naming of these originals.

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There's a new listing on eBay for an AR table, and a photo of the label shows that it says "TA Model" where later XA and XB models carry their designations. So that settles the question of whether or not there ever was an official "TA;" there was. But it also raises the question of whether tables like mine that carry no model designation are "TA Model" or an even earlier version.

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There's a new listing on eBay for an AR table, and a photo of the label shows that it says "TA Model" where later XA and XB models carry their designations. So that settles the question of whether or not there ever was an official "TA;" there was. But it also raises the question of whether tables like mine that carry no model designation are "TA Model" or an even earlier version.

Hi there;

I am going to guess that after the start of production someone decided to add the TA prefix.

It is only a guess because we do not know what Edgar Vilchur's thoughts were at the conception of the AR turntable.

He would have had his own confidance in his design but who was to know about the changes down the road.

He may have only contemplated a single turntable being produced.

In hindsight it would have been better to have started out with the model number, such as, AR-TA-6812-12345.

My translation is, TA would be the first model turntable designation, 68 would be the year of production, 12 would be the week of production, and 12345 would be the actual serial number.

If the electronics and speakers were labeled the same, we would have a better historical background here, today at least.

Dynaco with their 19-93412345, meaning product designation 19, year 9 (1969), 69 would have been much better, 34 is the week of production, and 12345 is the actual Dynaco serial number.

Dynaco used this on their electronics and speakers.

It is amazing how I have such great hindsight and not much foresight. LOL

Some manufacturers would rather the end user not know when something was produced, it can be a headache when there is a revision and the speakers may not be an exact match.

Can you imagine the dealers and the customers trying to match up stock on every sale.

Never mind the consecutive serial numbers, same drivers or caps, etc..

It could be quite painful for all involved.

It also would have been better if there was a quality serial number label applied also to the area of the speaker terminals, with an additional one inside on the the crossover board.

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I am going to guess that after the start of production someone decided to add the TA prefix.

The TA table in the auction has an address with a zipcode, which dates it to 1963 or later. My table with its TT serial number has a postal zone, which means it is older. I also know of one person who has a table that was shipped from the factory in 1963 as a one-motor table but has the same glossy grey top deck as mine, complete with the hole for the starter motor. His table also does not have a model name, and carries a TX serial number.

So it would appear that the chronological order is TT, TX, TA, XA.

From this it would appear that my TT table is the "original" model (perhaps "TT" just means "TurnTable"). Perhaps the XA indicates that the model combines whatever improvements were made to the original TT design in the TX and TA updates?

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The TA table in the auction has an address with a zipcode, which dates it to 1963 or later. My table with its TT serial number has a postal zone, which means it is older. I also know of one person who has a table that was shipped from the factory in 1963 as a one-motor table but has the same glossy grey top deck as mine, complete with the hole for the starter motor. His table also does not have a model name, and carries a TX serial number.

So it would appear that the chronological order is TT, TX, TA, XA.

From this it would appear that my TT table is the "original" model (perhaps "TT" just means "TurnTable"). Perhaps the XA indicates that the model combines whatever improvements were made to the original TT design in the TX and TA updates?

Hi again;

Well, we sure have a few choices here, with all the letters.

I am certain that we will find out more about this in the coming future years.

Most all of the manufacturers of heating controls that I bought early in my career, mid 1960's, used a letter code, "AB", "A", might have been 1960 and "B", might have been Feb.

I don't remember what year they started using the more commonly seen, 7001, which would be the 1st week of 1970.

I was involved in several major recall's of gas valves years ago.

When a company produces between one and two million controls a month, the week would be very valuable in narrowing down the production date or even the day.

We've sadly all seen the beef and other re-calls of current news.

The difference in just one day of production can cost a company a lot of money, as well as narrowing the safety aspects.

As a real sidenote to this topic but in relating to a system of order, I had a business that needed the date among other figures and data.

I was brought up to use the date, Nov. or November 26, 2007, today.

In our twelve month calendar, January is not in alphabetical order with April, etc..

I didn't have any help to try to solve this, after I had fouled up the order in my computer.

Finally, in about 1985, I arrived at using, 20071126, Year, Month, and Day format.

Each day will be following the previous lower number, if your database is set to autodate, for example, or just use sort.

If you happen to use this date for your daily sales, you just need to add a letter, 20071126A or 20071126-A, if you do less than 26 jobs a day, or use a dash and another number.

You can use this as your un-printed invoice numbering system too.

Unless you mis-type a key or two, you cannot lose the consecutive order, even if I did a few times. OOPS!

I strayed with this write-up but you can see that a different date of manufacturerer identification system can be of tremendous help.

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Most all of the manufacturers of heating controls that I bought early in my career, mid 1960's, used a letter code, "AB", "A", might have been 1960 and "B", might have been Feb.

I worked in aerospace development in the 70's. Serial numbering usually began with a code indicating product lines followed by sequential numbering. Production would record the first and last number used each day. The only way to extract dating from serial numbers was to consult the production record.

It would be interesting to know if Villchur and company had any idea in 1950's and 60's that people would still be trading, restoring and reworking their products 50 years after they sold them.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Guest speedracer
If you pull the inner platter out of its well, are you looking at a hole bored into the white delrin, or is the platter well lined with metal?

I understand the "inner platter", but don't understand the rest of what you're asking me.

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I understand the "inner platter", but don't understand the rest of what you're asking me.

When you remove the inner platter and look down into the bearing well, you will see one of three possible bearings:

1. A metal bearing pressed into the suspended T-bar (later design, best)

2. A screwed-down bearing cup made of a white plastic with a metal lining pressed into it ("fixed" delrin, ok)

3. A screwed-down bearing cup made of a white plastic with just a hole bored into it (original delrin, not good)

Photos of metal and delrin bearing cups here:

http://www.vinylnirvana.com/ar_models_newold_xa.shtml

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Guest speedracer
When you remove the inner platter and look down into the bearing well, you will see one of three possible bearings:

1. A metal bearing pressed into the suspended T-bar (later design, best)

2. A screwed-down bearing cup made of a white plastic with a metal lining pressed into it ("fixed" delrin, ok)

3. A screwed-down bearing cup made of a white plastic with just a hole bored into it (original delrin, not good)

Photos of metal and delrin bearing cups here:

http://www.vinylnirvana.com/ar_models_newold_xa.shtml

No Plastic !

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No Plastic !

Then you're in luck. If you have no missing or broken parts, most likely all you will need to do is clean out old, congealed oil, scrape off and remove any of the rotting black material around the platter and tonearm wells, relube and adjust. There's really not much that can go wrong with these as long as the motors are good.

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Guest speedracer
Then you're in luck. If you have no missing or broken parts, most likely all you will need to do is clean out old, congealed oil, scrape off and remove any of the rotting black material around the platter and tonearm wells, relube and adjust. There's really not much that can go wrong with these as long as the motors are good.

Cool ! Just doing alittle sanding on the sides to clean her up. Belts look loose, I see 2 sizes for the smaller one, 6.6 or 7.5 ?, platter foam rotted, but hey, what do want for $68.00. lol

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Cool ! Just doing alittle sanding on the sides to clean her up. Belts look loose, I see 2 sizes for the smaller one, 6.6 or 7.5 ?, platter foam rotted, but hey, what do want for $68.00. lol

The "official" size for the small starter belt is SCY6.7. SCY7.0 will usually also work. If you buy the belts over the counter, check their thickness. The SCY series specs the thickness as ".045 or smaller," and the AR table really needs "smaller," about .030. If the belt is at the thicker end of the range, it won't stretch enough and will be too tight, get the 7.0 instead of 6.7 (7.5 will almost always be too loose). If you order them online, get one of each, 6.7 and 7.0, they're cheap, and use the largest one that will start the motor reliably. I just bought a new set and they were $2 each. The main drive belt is FRY23.6, and it's available practically anywhere that turntable belts are sold. Any price higher than $5-$7 is highway robbery.

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Guest speedracer
The "official" size for the small starter belt is SCY6.7. SCY7.0 will usually also work. If you buy the belts over the counter, check their thickness. The SCY series specs the thickness as ".045 or smaller," and the AR table really needs "smaller," about .030. If the belt is at the thicker end of the range, it won't stretch enough and will be too tight, get the 7.0 instead of 6.7 (7.5 will almost always be too loose). If you order them online, get one of each, 6.7 and 7.0, they're cheap, and use the largest one that will start the motor reliably. I just bought a new set and they were $2 each. The main drive belt is FRY23.6, and it's available practically anywhere that turntable belts are sold. Any price higher than $5-$7 is highway robbery.

Somebody, somewhere listed a website to buy these at a good price ( I wasn't sure if I should list it), but on the larger on one, prt # FR"X"is 23.6, no FR"Y" listed.

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For some accepted, at least by AR, but clearly unexplained reason, when the power cord is plugged in, but the power switch is off, there is a very slight vibration from the motor.

Vern,

The motor vibrates because of the small capacitor across the switch. The cap is there to reduce switch arcing (the motor is an inductive load) and its capacitive reactance causes a small amount of curent to flow through the motor and hence it vibrates when the switch is off.

Bob

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Somebody, somewhere listed a website to buy these at a good price ( I wasn't sure if I should list it), but on the larger on one, prt # FR"X"is 23.6, no FR"Y" listed.

FRX23.6 is .05" wider than the original FRY23.6. It'll probably work, but I haven't tried it myself.

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For some accepted, at least by AR, but clearly unexplained reason, when the power cord is plugged in, but the power switch is off, there is a very slight vibration from the motor.

Vern,

The motor vibrates because of the small capacitor across the switch. The cap is there to reduce switch arcing (the motor is an inductive load) and its capacitive reactance causes a small amount of curent to flow through the motor and hence it vibrates when the switch is off.

Bob

Thanks Bob;

Even having had 2 years at the local AR warantee depot didn't warrant them explaining it to us.

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