Irrational brand loyalty

[Guest Bret]

I’m just inviting comment, there is no useful point in this discussion - but it might get all us “classic” speaker listeners together.

Most, if not all of the speakers we discuss here have at least some similarity in “voice.” Whether that’s caused by mostly acoustic suspension design or a “rolled-off” high frequency response, or even that most were designed for far-field listening and large stereo images is debatable.

What seems interesting is that we’ve all acquired a taste for a particular sonic signature. Just using myself as an example (because I can use no one else), my taste for AR was developed from the time I was very young. Oh, sure, I owned one or two pairs of other brands of speakers over my life, but no matter what else I listened-to, I compare it with what I am *accustomed* to and go back to that.

I don’t think it is arguable that there were some very fine speaker systems I disliked, nor that other manufacturers didn’t have a great product. Yet I find myself a user/collector of AR up to the point that much of the original signature disappeared.

As I read through threads, there are others like me. Once a fan of Advent, always a fan of Advent. If you appreciate KLH, you’ll be a fan of KLH and buy multiple examples of KLH speakers. The same can be said for any brand that stuck around long enough to have mutliple models to collect, use, or enjoy.

Why do we do that? I own 2 pairs of AR-2ax speakers. The Advent was almost unarguably a “better” speaker system from both measurement and design-concept standpoints. Why don’t I own any? Every manufacturer represented here on The Classic Speaker Pages has a good, or great, speaker, but very few of us have [meaning own]examples of favorites from more than one brand - despite most of these sharing a sameness.

That doesn't even make sense to me in corn flakes or raisin bran, much less speakers. It would be strange for every product in a brand’s line to be the “best.” The “best” 10", 2-way design, plus the “best” 8" 2-way, plus the “best” 12" 3-way. . . that would almost be a miracle, wouldn’t it? Brand loyalty seems counter-intuitive AND anti-intellectual.

So how do we get “stuck” with a voice, or sonic signature? Our ears change, but for the most part, our preferences stay our preferences.

Any comments?

Bret

[Guest rickcee]

Hi - yea, some people like Chevys, some like Fords ( interesting 'to me' - when Fords are clearly fastest at NASCAR, the rules are quickly changed mid season to 'help equalize' , with different spoilers or whatever. How many laps have Fords led under green flag conditions at Daytona & Talladaga last three years ? maybe 20 laps total. This is the 'restrictor plate' thing. at the current 'fast tracks, Michigan, etc, the Fords still compete.) is that off topic enough?--

speaker wise, My 'best' speakers are late '70's Koss,still in everyday use. my first 'real' speaker purchase was AR 6's for my mom. My first real spks for me were Dynacos. latest purchase - pair of AR 302 about 4 years ago - copy of AR 5. no doubt excel. spks, but the Koss sound livlier. maybe efficiency, plus a stronger top end.

I read these posts 3-4 times a week, just curiosity. good useless to me info 'insider details' on spkers frequently pops up.

Anyway, yep, brand loyalty is somethin most companies try for ( apple/Mac vs evil empire . . .) enjoy./ Rick

[roundhome]

ok here goes

I have a 61 chevy impala 35 years now with a 84 corvette frame under it and a 383 two stage fuel injected engine nothing stock about this car. but it was a ss modle back in high school I got tired of blowing heads on the 409 so took it out then took all the emblems off and leaded them in if it was to go back to original how far would you go. its 175.00 for just one of the emblems. I know guys that paint the frame hanging the same as it did in the factory . even if the car was strait off the factory show room i would have found a way to make it handle better and go faster as it was back in the 70s I was going 120 in the 1/4 in 13 sec not bad for a steat machine and a 17 year old kid.

now for the speakers name one I probly have it in the garage koss modle ones elcrtostats jbl radio shack klh infinity pioneer mageplanAR just to name a few there seams to be something about all of them I like my frustrasion with all this is I have five Lsts two lst and three LST IIs all with no tweeters I have tried seas and liked them then I read about how i;m distroying the sound but I have spent a lot of time and money trying to get the tweeters and they are eather junk our don't last If I could find something new I would just put them in and listen to one great seround system. with my ears a brighter sound is good i can heir the music better. my first speakers were Jenson 6x9 in my care I lived in my car. then my AR9s that were out of the box about three weeks back in 83 they were bought new in 81 but got shipped out again they are stil in the box I hvae wofers for them already refoamed waiting t see what they are like when I get them out. my AR3s have all the original drivers but a upgraded crossover they sound great they will be a system of there own AR speakers amp and turntable but I do have a duel and some other turntables like all my audio gear lots of different I like old amps but they have all new caps or the hum and buss will drive you crazy as far as new stuff lots again its what will play the best in these and with all the formats out there dvda dts cd some play well in some but not others.

bottom line my main system is AR 9ls AR98ls with a homemade center from the same. I like my old pioneer spec amps they have been change a lot also.

so my choise of speakers is the new AR 9s 58s 9ls they have a cleaer high end and real good base. as far as any thing goes I will alwas make it to soot my taste and my ears i'm the one that has to listen to them and look at them. but it will be done with a lot of reading asking ? and listening to others then hopfuly i will do the right thing. my work in the navy was one that you did vary little to change what you worked on or someone that you did not want to get killed could I was a Navy weapons tech. no room for what will it do if i do this to the system. but that is not to say I didn't have some Ideas just in case during the Gulf WAR .

long and windy but I said it

JIm

Just a lover of music

not into flame wars had enough of that for to long and people lost there lives

[soundminded]

There might be a nostalgia factor, remembering our lost youth. It was all part of a different time and place, at least for me. But I may be an exception to the rule. I liked "some" of this equipment because it was the best meaning most accurate available in some ways at the time. I didn't have unswerving brand loyalty. I never liked Advent. I never liked AR2 series speakers. I liked KLH 6 and 17 much better than the more expensive 5. Even my AR9s didn't particularly please me until five years after I owned them and found a formula to change their sound which works for me. I don't like speakers with rolled off high ends and their relatively muffled muted sound. I don't like speakers which reduce music to bland unexciting pablum. I think it's sad that the competition in some ways never equaled the genuinely scientifically honest efforts companies like AR made to create accurate loudspeakers especially when so much more became available to them. The decline in this industry is IMO in part attributable to the decline in interest in classical music and jazz. These are the genres worthy of the effort and cost of accurate sound reproduction. Today's market is a jungle. It's impossible to trust anybody anymore so I stick with proven products from the past and see what I can do to bring some of the benefits of modern hardware to improve them. I am not personally interested in recreating museum pieces. Fortunately, except for a relatively few of us in the know, for most people this equipment is little more than old trash to be discarded for whatever they can get for it.

[Guest Mike Gibson]

I think there is a touch of brand loyalty in all of us. I've had the same old Altecs since 1968. So I naturally am a fan of the "west coast sound".

I just got back into the joy of listening to decent vintage equipment.I still have the Mac gear I saved for a year to buy in 1971.

I finally decided that the "Black Plague" will never end in my lifetime so I started picking up some gear that interested me back when I was first married and always broke I have a couple of pairs of KLH 17's because there is just something about the sound those speakers produce.

One of the things that you think people would eventually flash on is the fact that some vintage gear doesn't depreciate like the new stuff does. There is all kinds of gear out there that was made from the 50-70's that's worth as much more than it sold for new. I realize that the "BPC" has advanced technology but it's still ugly and cheap looking to me. E-pay has become a two edged sword for vintage gear. On one hand it's helped save a lot of gear from the landfill; while on the other it has escalated prices out of reach for some of us. Sorry to ramble on so. You folks have a very nice site here.

[Guest russwollman]

From certain angles, yes, that kind of loyalty is irrational. When that loyalty obstructs making a better choice—no matter what the subject may be—then it could be called irrational. But in the mind of the one who makes that choice, it's simple and clear.

Blind loyalty, of course, brings a semblance of certainty in a most uncertain world, a thing to believe in, and believe in firmly, in the face of all other comers. Perhaps, too, this blind kind of loyalty may be evidence of a certain rigidity or resistance to change.

In the field of acquisitions, it really doesn't matter all that much, does it? Those with more refined tastes can always wonder why the other guy always buys beer when champagne seems so much better, but that's the story of life. The spectrum of human preference is very wide.

But in fields of knowledge, it matters quite a lot. To hang onto one's predilections even in the face of something greater can be dangerous and contrary to the force of life.

I met someone recently, a young man who thought he possessed a certain level of spiritual wisdom. And he thought there would always be war among mankind, finding no fault in the warmongering national leadership of certain nations. A young man like this worries me even though he had refined taste in loudspeakers—B&W.

There was a time when I thought people who drove imported cars were superior in their knowledge and intelligence. But not long after I'd formulated that idea, I met an ignoramus who had a BMW like the one we had (which turned out to be an awful car of dubious integrity).

Somehow I have settled upon Advents. I have lots of them. I like them, and even after I've heard much more costly, modern, and sophisticated designs, I still enjoy my Advents. It's just my time to rest on all that striving and enjoy the glorious work of the great composers and artists. Perhaps I have paid my dues to the god of tweak.

The natural tendency of life is towards more and more. And that is certainly true of audiophiles with their probing minds, keen ears, and that unquenchable thirst for the last ounce of subtle flavor. Sound—namely, vibration—is a fundamental element of life and is extremely close to the basis of existence.

I love it when you guys get into this stuff, and hope I have provided something worth your reading. Unless the discussion transcends the surface stuff, I feel like the waiter brought only half the sandwich.

[Guest russwollman]

Some other things is about loyalty (it's late while I'm writing this)—

Some of us tend to invest ourselves in the things we buy. In the consumer age, that's where it happens. We literally put ourselves into the goods. Having made that admittedly intangible investment, we may become reluctant to sell the stock.

It gives the mind a certain degree of rest, knowing that we can stop the search and enjoy, which is what the mind really wants. Otherwise, the mind becomes weary. And with the dizzying array of products out there, a place to rest is essential.

Manufacturers strive for a certain balance in their marketing so as to maintain brand loyalty while providing subtle enticements to buy their latest wares.

Mercedes-Benz cars are a notable example of that idea. The designers maintain a certain style which is unmistakably M-B regardless of the idiom.

The mind is a complex instrument, capable of justifying almost anything and responsive to a huge amount of input from all the senses, which it factors into all its decisions. Hence, I like not only the sound of the Advents, but the texture of the grill cloth, the hue and grain of the walnut, the shape of the molded front section, and even the proportions of the cabinet. They look nice sitting there. They have warmth and solidity—permanence, if you will. And yes, I had my first pair a long time ago, when life was more carefree and innocent. When I first read their promo material, I was charmed by the simplicity and frankness. I can easily recall some of the words even today, 30+ years later.

I do think AR3a's are marvelous—-especially with their wide framing on the front. And I always thought AR's advertising was absolutely enlightened, impressively scientific, and clean as a whistle. Imagine that sort of honesty in today's market!

[Guest Mike Gibson]

One thing that is hard for me to handle is what some of the good names in audio have become. I was out of audio (except for listening to what I have) for some 30 years and return to see the names I remembered with few exceptions are like hollow shells of their former greatness. Or worse yet some have degenerated down to the level of dubious quality. Some of the names behind the names have gone on to greater things. Unfortunately most of the "greater things" are out of reach for the average music lover. Which brings us back to the bargins you can find in vintage audio gear.

[Guest russwollman]

It's an interesting thing about names. They are heavily relied upon in marketing by the marketers as well as some consumers (there's that word again), but there's often little behind them—a sign of the times when nothing, or most things, are not what they're said to be.

Seems like the creative minds in audio, as in so many fields, simply do not like to stand still. So they move on and sell the once great name for whatever they can get.

This is not an age which favors the maintenance—let alone the enhancement—of tradition. It's a restless world. And factor in rapid technological progress and the unprecedented economic pressure brought on by mass production, under which is the drive for maximum profit. Add to that the fact that the mass market is rarely a discerning crowd which values newness above all else, and you have a perfect scenario for blitzkrieg change.

But when you come across a tradition of long standing, isn't it amazing, a real anachronism?

McIntosh is an exception in the audio world. They've retained their integrity. And there are those few who remain dedicated to the preservation of the good old stuff, which is the raison d'etre of this website.

The world's future looks interesting, all things considered.

[Guest Mike Gibson]

McIntosh has even gone through some changes since I bought my gear from them. They were sold several times and now that the old guard is long gone I see they're not nearly as conservative as they used to be. They refused to build any Quadraphonic components but have gotten in to car audio and home theatre and the digital world in a big way. I realize the car audio started when they were owned by Clarion. Since digital is the supposed wave of the future I can see them getting into it or at least staying current in it. I wonder in ten years if any of the young people who have never heard vinyl or tape will ever hear uncompressed music? Some of the CD's are recorded so close to the edge they sound awful to me. Shrill and fatiguing in sound, just like the modern compressed FM radio for the most part. Oh well, that's progress Boy I'm starting to sound like some old reactionary I used to complain about Wait, I am old and a reactionary

[Guest Americain]

Another area where there is irrational loyalty is in politics. An elected official could be wrong on every issue to Joe Citizen but somehow he can't persuade himself to pull the lever for the other guy. The party loyalty is too strong.

I've found that audiophiles tend to be inquisitive, always ready to experiment to make things better and better in much the same way wine lovers love to try a new varietal. I've had all sorts of speakers, amps and turntables and I enjoyed them all. It is fun however to re-discover the sound of my AR3a's once again so I think what another poster said earlier may well be correct...we may just be trying to recapture our younger selves in an attempt to re-live that first discovery of a beautiful audio experience. The one that made us catch the fever so long ago.

[Guest russwollman]

All so true, Americain.

There is more of the seeker in audiophiles. And the desire to return to an earlier, sweeter experience is prevalent, as times moves on and wears the human machinery down a bit, diminishing somewhat the enjoyment of life available from the five senses.

Despite some hi-freq hearing loss, I enjoy and appreciate the music more than ever.

For any classical fans, may I recommend the two symphonies, No 1 and No 2, from a little-known Russian composer, Vasily Sergeyevich Kalinnikov? He lived a scant 35 years (1866-1901) in poverty and poor health, but, man, did this guy write! To hear the beauty, power and sweetness in his work, you'd never believe that this guy had an unlucky day in his life. The sound is Russian, but very much the composer's own, though you can hear shades of Borodin, Tchaikovsky, and even Rachmaninoff in it.

The works are available on Chandos disc #9546 with Neeme Jarvi leading the Royal Scottish National Orchestra. Some think Russian works get their due only from Russian orchestras, but Jarvi handles his troops with great grace. If you want something with more punch, go Russian.

[Guest Americain]

Hey Russ, thanks for the tip on Kalinnikov. I am indeed a big classical music buff and I'll keep an eye out for this composer. Speaking of our hi-fi memories I've noticed how nostalgic we get for those first few audio experiences. The very first "real" speakers I ever owned were a pair of KLH Twenty Two's. Well actually it was one complete speaker and the drivers and crossover for the other. With my own sixteen year old craftsman's hands I built the other cabinet. I would frequent the audio salon in our small New England town so I got to know the sales people really well. One day one of them made me an offer I couldn't refuse, he told me he'd sell me his KLH speakers (albeit in pieces) for ten bucks. I jumped at the offer and embarked on a great adventure. Even though my 3a's provide me with more than enough pleasure to mollify my yearning for youth I do often wonder what a nice pair of KLH twenty Two's would sound like again. I guess it's back to the garage sales!

[Guest russwollman]

It sounds, Americain, as if you might be headed down the road I recently completed. I bought a bunch of old New England speakers, AR 3a's, KLH 5s, AR 2ax's (2 pair), and reworked them in various ways, cosmetically and/or electronically.

I was always in awe of the 3a's and could never afford them in their own time, and had a pair of 2ax's. I don't know what got hold of me, but I recently went through an enormous amount of trouble and fuss with all that stuff. It's all gone now, and I'm left with a double Advent system, a pair of Smaller Advents reveneered in light birch with matching stands I made, another pair of Advent 5012s I hope to sell, and a pair of little Boston A40s, which are very nice.

The KLH 5s were really disappointing. But I do recall a pair of Model 33s—or maybe it was a pair of Six's—that knocked my socks off some years ago.

But I'm quite happy with the Advents, so there I rest and enjoy all the CDs I had to have.

Another item you might want to examine: www.theclassicalstation.org, which is WCPE at 89.7 FM. They also broadcast in 5 different online modes, none of which I know the first thing about. The story of the station, a home-grown effort here in Raleigh, NC, is a modern miracle. Listener supported and volunteer operated, WCPE is in a class by itself outside the ruck...

[Guest Americain]

I've heard the Advents and I've always liked them. My reasons for refurbishing my equipment was pretty basic. I had just moved from California to Columbus, Ohio and in addition to my regular system I was lugging around a Bang & Olufsen turntable, a Bang & Olufsen cassette deck, a huge subwoofer made of oak and the pair of AR3a's and please note: NONE OF THESE COMPONENTS WORK. So I dragged all 300 lbs. of my traveling museum of high fidelity junk all the way to the eastern time zone and woke up one morning determined that all this stuff would WORK! I repaired the B&O turntable and moved on to the AR3a's and refoamed them, put in some planar tweeters and viola, they were sounding like new. In passing I noticed how awesome they sounded and realized why I'd bought them back in 1977.

My former girlfriend has a pair of AR 2ax's and I almost want to call her and tell her to make sure she KEEPS those babies as they are worth keeping around. Once again Russ, thanks for tip on the classical web site. I'll be looking into it.