AR9, recommended amps.

[dingus]

currently i'm using a Luxman R-117 (160wpc) receiver to drive the high's on my 9's, a Yamaha B-2x (a very strong 170wpc) drives the lows. i'm looking for a suitable replacement for the Luxman, something that will compliment the Yamaha. i had experimented with a Sansui 1000a tube receiver and it sounded great, but i had to take it out due to its finicky and deteriorating condition. i wouldnt mind trying another tube amp, but i really like the convenience of solid state gear.

so anyone got any recommendations? thanks.

[Guest hilltroll67]

Hi Dingus,

I'm guessing you want a black-face. The Yamaha A-700 would be a decent companion 'cosmetically'. Being an integrated amp, it has more functions than you need, BUT... if you use it to power just the highs, it maybe would stay in class A mode. That could be interesting.

Bob (aka "Hilltroll")

[dingus]

hi Bob,

it doesnt have to be black face, but that would look best with the rest of the gear. the Luxman represents my last non-separate piece so ideally i am looking for a stand alone. thats not to say i would pass on the an A700 if i found one. if the sound is there then i dont have a problem going with an integrated unit. thanks!

[rrcrain]

The Heathkit AA-1800 is one heck of an amp, if you can find one in working condition. Conservatively rated at 250 watts into an 8 ohm load and stable down to 2 ohms, it's so clean that it takes on the sound coloration of whatever preamp is driving it. It's based on the Leach Super Amp design and has proven very reliable for me over the years.

[dingus]

>The Heathkit AA-1800 is one heck of an amp ...

thanks, i'll put it on my list.

[draftingmonkey]

Dingus,

Check out the Yamaha R-9. Class AB (runs on class A at low levels and auto switches to class AB at higher levels). Rated at 125W. Would probably go well with your B-2x (I have a B-2 and have been keeping and eye out for a 2x). Am running one in the wifes craft room hooked to a AR-2ax/4x stack. It is a great little receiverand well liked by those who have one. Here is a photo of the R-9 on top of a Yammie cd player.

James

[dingus]

thanks James, i'll keep an eye out.

[rl1856]

>The Heathkit AA-1800 is one heck of an amp.....stable down to 2 ohms,

Into a 2ohm load it will deliver almost a kilowatt of power !! At least according to the review in Audio Magazine published back in the day.

Best,

Ross

[Guest Lorin]

Dingus,

I would humbly suggest an active crossover before any other new equipment. For a couple hundred at most, you will increase the performance and overall affectivness of the gear you have in place.

I have used two DBX active crossovers and now I'm using a BBE. I would recommend avoiding the DBX, and I am very pleased with the BBE. But, either way, the active gives you a significant increase in affective power band width and in turn improved sonic performance.

Such has been my experience.

Good luck,

Lorin

[dingus]

>

>I would humbly suggest an active crossover before any other

>new equipment. For a couple hundred at most, you will

>increase the performance and overall affectivness of the gear

>you have in place.

>

hi Lorin,

thanks for the input, but i'm afraid the technical aspects of bypassing the internal crossover is well beyond my abilities. even if i did have the ability, i would be hesitant to modify the AR9.

[dingus]

i have had some moderate success in this endeavor. when i first acquired the 9's, i powered them for a time with a buddies Carver Receiver. this was before i began bi-amping, but i remember being quite impressed with the sound of this combination, the 'component synergy' was quite good.

not too long ago i took ownership of this very receiver, using it in a bedroom system because i assumed it would not work as well as the higher powered Luxman in a bi-amped configuration. a few days ago i decided to try the Carver again and i'm glad i did. even though it is driving the high end only, that component synergy is still there. it sounds just as clean as the Luxman, but there is a sweetness to the sound that i really enjoy. i did have to reduce the gain on the B-2x in order to match the output of the Carver, but i am very happy with the results.

i'm still in the market for a separate amp, but i feel much more relaxed about taking my time and waiting for the right piece at the right price.

[Guest Lorin]

Dingus,

I'm with you! I would never tamper with the internal nor would I have the confidence to do so.

There is no need to by-pass the internal. The 9 is disigned with biamping capabilities. The owners manual will say it is not necessary to bi-amp with an active and I would agree. But, most folks don't have super high end 400 watt amplifiers like a Mac (there lies the rub). On the other hand, the AR9 owner's manual tells us where to set the external crossover and what the limitations are on output when using an active.

I found the following article very helpfull in understanding the benefits, ralitity and hype around bi-amping. The section; "actual vs. effective power" is the key. http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm. Click on Articles to find the the article; Benefits of Bi-amping (not quite magic but, close).

I confess; I am a very pationate about it because active bi-amping has helped me get so much more from my 9's in all configurations. I have used about 8 different amps on them, some were pretty modest, and in all cases, sonic performance was signicantly improved. Currenlty I am using a Cary V12 on the top and AES six packs on the bottom. Bi-amped of course!

Again, good luck.

Lorin

[dingus]

thanks Lorin, i'll be reading that article intently. i didnt realize that an external crossover could be of benefit with the internal crossover in place.

[Dave S.]

Hi,

I drive my AR9LS's with a Hafler P505 which is a commercial version of a Hafler 500. 400wpc into 4 ohms. Very clean and smooth and Hafler 500's can be relatively inexpensive considering their power and reliability.

[dingus]

i bought a Hafler preamp off craigslist the other day. the seller highly recommended i look for a pair of Hafler DH-120's bridged in mono. he said they are the best sounding of the Hafler amps.

[ToastedAlmond]

Those DH-120's are cool. If I remember correctly, they incorporate the DynaQuad circuit.

I have immensely enjoyed driving the woofers on the AR-9's with a big honker 200wpc Onkyo Integra M-5090 power amp. It's 200wpc into 8 ohms, but I can't find any published specs for 4 ohm performance. I wouldn't be surprised if it came close to doubling into 4. For the top end I use a Carver M-500t. It's smooth as silk up there.

[dingus]

> ... For the top end I use a Carver M-500t. It's

>smooth as silk up there.

thanks George, i have Carver on the short list as i find the synergy with The Carver Receiver to be excellent.

[frankmarsi]

I don't think about using all these foreign amps with US speakers, I would never replace my 455 cubic inch(7.2 litre) motor in my 1973 Riviera with a ’73 Datsun or Honda motor. Are those imports of that vintage still around? No of course not! But my Rivs sit in my drive awaiting restoration just like all of my 14 varied AR speakers do,- a fun hobby isn't it? So much ‘work-in-progress’!

I very joyfully and confidently enjoy my four-stacked US AR-LST’s with my two old original U.S. Phase Linear 400 amps. My four AR-3a’s use two PL400’s also.

Seventies amps with seventies speakers that these speakers were intensively tested with back then when U.S. stuff was merely being copied and imitated by the rest of the world, just like it’s always been. Am I nationalistic, the answer is yes; go watch the world’s news at night! Study history why don't ya!

My amps, all vintage in this case are original and equipped with fans and so are very enjoyable as things were intended to be back then, so there are for me presently. Screw the rest of the world, this continent is the only place to be in regards to the world’s history and the present. Besides I really like AR speakers, and they were made by people here, who happen to be from all over the world, and I am eternally grateful.

I say buy old US stuff just like mine and your’s speakers are. Just learn how to deal with old amps of this sort, they can be a hand-full, hell they're over 35 years old, remember how jumpy you were at that age? The sound I receive is neither harsh nor lacking, in fact very strong and impressive- what’s with you guys? My bass has such ‘bass-slam’ I can’t begin to describe it! I’ve been using AR/PL since 1974, maybe I’m too opinionated in a way about how these components should and do sound. Back then I would have chose nothing less than good old American genius. I’ve got almost 400 pure RMS watts per channel and me and my invited listeners are most satisfied. Four AR-LST's and two PL400 amps, what more could anyone want? If that's the case go drop thousands more for bigger M.L., Bryston or Boulder, etc. amps.

Right now I am as usual listening to; “porcupine tree’s” album “Abesentia”, a rock album all should listen to as a true test of AR’s ability to reproduce rock as it should sound.

FM

[roundhome]

>I don't think about using all these foreign amps with US

>speakers, I would never replace my 455 cubic inch(7.2 litre)

>motor in my 1973 Riviera with a ’73 Datsun or Honda motor. Are

>those imports of that vintage still around? No of course not!

>But my Rivs sit in my drive awaiting restoration just like all

>of my 14 varied AR speakers do,- a fun hobby isn't it? So much

>‘work-in-progress’!

>I very joyfully and confidently enjoy my four-stacked US

>AR-LST’s with my two old original U.S. Phase Linear 400 amps.

>My four AR-3a’s use two PL400’s also.

> Seventies amps with seventies speakers that these speakers

>were intensively tested with back then when U.S. stuff was

>merely being copied and imitated by the rest of the world,

>just like it’s always been. Am I nationalistic, the answer is

>yes; go watch the world’s news at night! Study history why

>don't ya!

>My amps, all vintage in this case are original and equipped

>with fans and so are very enjoyable as things were intended to

>be back then, so there are for me presently. Screw the rest of

>the world, this continent is the only place to be in regards

>to the world’s history and the present. Besides I really like

>AR speakers, and they were made by people here, who happen to

>be from all over the world, and I am eternally grateful.

>I say buy old US stuff just like mine and your’s speakers are.

>Just learn how to deal with old amps of this sort, they can be

>a hand-full, hell they're over 35 years old, remember how

>jumpy you were at that age? The sound I receive is neither

>harsh nor lacking, in fact very strong and impressive- what’s

>with you guys? My bass has such ‘bass-slam’ I can’t begin to

>describe it! I’ve been using AR/PL since 1974, maybe I’m too

>opinionated in a way about how these components should and do

>sound. Back then I would have chose nothing less than good old

>American genius. I’ve got almost 400 pure RMS watts per

>channel and me and my invited listeners are most satisfied.

>Four AR-LST's and two PL400 amps, what more could anyone want?

>If that's the case go drop thousands more for bigger M.L.,

>Bryston or Boulder, etc. amps.

>Right now I am as usual listening to; “porcupine tree’s” album

>“Abesentia”, a rock album all should listen to as a true test

>of AR’s ability to reproduce rock as it should sound.

>FM

>

>Four AR-LST's and two PL400 amps, what more could anyone want?

Eight AR LST's stacked for quad

[frankmarsi]

O.K. Wisemhiemer.

I just know I want to be your friend if any of that's true, do you really have that amount? No no one does except that guy in 1975's Stereo Review' Mag.

What amps are you using my friend?

Is it much of a drive for me to get there from NY?

I can't watt to come over, I am coming over aren't I?

I really do like pizza, I'll keep it low priced for you, I tired of that make a big impression stuff anyway, since about '82.

My friend and certainly yours, FM

[Guest Sean]

I have some very heavily modified AR9's and 90's that i've done a LOT of experimentation with. I'm running the 9's for the front mains in my HT system with the 90's as the rears. My center channel uses two modified AR 8" mid-woofers ( same as found in the 9's and 90's ) and the mid - tweeter plate from a pair of AR 98's.

In stock form, i found that i needed at least 900+ watts RMS @ 4 ohms to make the 9's sing. This was using amps that were rather conservatively rated and quite sturdy. In this configuration, i had 400+ wpc on driving the upper section and 500+ wpc driving the bottom end. This was all passively bi-amped.

I later switched over to a two channel Sunfire Signature amp. This amp was factory rated at 1200 wpc @ 4 ohms. In doing so, i found that the 9's sounded even better throughout the mids and top end, but the bottom end was somewhat lacking i.e. it did not have the "slam" of the previous combo. This was primarily due to the differences in amplifier design, not power ratings. As such, i contacted the manufacturer ( Sunfire ) and made arrangements with them to have the amplifier factory modified for improved performance. The rep that i spoke to referred to this as their "Apogee mod", which basically increased current capacity and removed the current and thermal limiters from within the amp.

When i got the amp back, it surely had more low frequency impact. At the same time, the top end sounded darker and less open. I ran the amp for a while and it did seem to open up a bit after playing it for a while. As a point of reference, i own 25+ amplifiers and have noticed VERY substantial differences between some amps driving specific loads, so don't let others tell you that all solid state amps that measure similarly into test loads all sound the same. They don't. At least, if one has reasonable listening skills and a somewhat revealing system.

Anyhow, i ended up pulling apart my 9's and 90's and modifying them. I built them the way that they should have been built from the factory i.e. better quality caps & resistors, low inductance heavier gauge speaker wiring, shorter signal path, improved crossover layout, damped baskets on the drivers, etc...

After doing so, it was like having a different speaker. The sound was FAR more open and spacious i.e. not nearly as "thick, congested and slightly dull" as most AR's tend to sound from the factory. Every aspect of performance was improved, along with the ability of the amp to drive the speakers.

As a side note, i carefully "formed" the caps prior to installation in the crossover. That is, i gradually brought the caps up to max operating voltage using a variac. In my experience, this really does help the sonics of the system, as the caps are no longer "forming" dynamically as the music signal varies. One need not have fancy test equipment to see this happening, nor "golden ears" to hear the benefits. The caps are simply less "lossy" due to being "pre-conditioned", both electrically and thermally. This allows more of the signal to pass without as much sonic influence from the caps themselves. All of the metal leads going into the caps were also shortened and damped, so as to minimize "ringing" due to acoustic excitation within the cabinet.

As far "cheap" amps go, you might want to look for a Yamaha M80. This was probably the best "high powered" amp that Yamaha ever made. It is a true dual mono amp i.e. independent "old school" ( i.e. NON-toroidal ) power transformers, power supplies, etc... The one thing that i absolutely HATE about this amp is the crappy plastic factory binding posts. J-U-N-K !!! So long as you can hook your speaker cabling up though, that's all that matters.

If you can find one of the Heathkit's previously mentioned, it would be a good amp for the bottom end of the 9's.

I really DO like actively crossing a speaker system, as my main two channel system is actively crossed and runs six stereo amps with all channels active. Personally, i would not bother running an active crossover on the 9's. I would recommend upgrading what is already there, as doing this will outweigh the benefits of using the active crossover and THEN having to feed the signal through the older, lower quality passive parts that are already there. While you might pick up a good portion of amplifier headroom doing this, you're still not going to get the full sonic benefits that you should.

You've got a good set of speakers with the AR 9's. They have the potential to be GREAT speakers, should you choose to perform some modifications to them. Once sensibly modified with "reasonably good" modern parts, these speakers would easily sell for $15K+ if produced today.

Hope this helps... Sean

>

[roundhome]

>O.K. Wisemhiemer.

>I just know I want to be your friend if any of that's true, do

>you really have that amount? No no one does except that guy in

>1975's Stereo Review' Mag.

>What amps are you using my friend?

>Is it much of a drive for me to get there from NY?

>I can't watt to come over, I am coming over aren't I?

>I really do like pizza, I'll keep it low priced for you, I

>tired of that make a big impression stuff anyway, since about

>'82.

>My friend and certainly yours, FM

Ok Frank I'm going to say it now that they are all here I have 8 LST 3 LST IIs and three AR mst1's

now for the sad part tweeters and two don't have crossovers yet

The 3 LSTs are up and running shortly two more will be done but one cabinet is in bad shape will need work so I need 12 tweeters and two crossovers also need 6 LST II tweeters

would be real nice to just order them and be done with it but we can'ty that is why its a hobby

by the way for now I have 250 watt audiosource mono blocks not impressed at all with them could slap them on my peavey sc1200 watt

sorry frank but it could be another year before they are all up. two LST in each corner and two stacked lst IIs for a center channel I have over 700 quad lps and tapes so i will be in roundhome music bliss.

lost of dvdaudio and dts music also.

Bass not sure if its enough 8 12s and two tens what do you think

cheers.

Jim

[Guest dc270]

I am using a Hafler DH 500 to drive mine and they sound excellent! I plan to experiment with bi-amping later using the Hafler on he woofer side and a 125 watt receiver with sub out on the upper sides.

Should be interesting!

DC

[dingus]

just this morning i happened across a Rotel RB-970 MKII. the guy was in the middle of moving and just wanted to get rid of it. with no way to listen to it (speakers had sold) and no internet to research it (phone disconnected) i bought it just to see how it sounded. when i got home i found out its only 60wpc, 180wpc bridged in mono, so i figured it wouldnt keep up with the Yamaha B-2x that drives the low end. i have to say that this amp is the sweetest, smoothest, best sounding amp i've ever used with the 9's. impact and dynamics are outstanding (freaking amazing for 60wpc) and it compliments the Yamaha B-2x beautifully. i am now toying with the idea of picking up a second one, bridging them and move to horizontal bi-amping.

[Guest matty g]

Dingus -

For what it's worth, I have spent way too much money on higher powered amps thinking that higher wattage will give me "better" sound. Hundreds of dollars later, I have found that this is not often the case. I have been driving my 3a's with a 65 wpc Pioneer receiver for quite a while, with amazingly clear, warm and distortion free sound. Probably the closest "tube sounding" solid state amp I have ever owned (short of my Mac 1700). Then the opportunity to buy a receiver of a very high reputation with twice the power came up, so I grabbed it. It was all original, never tampered with, absolutely cherry....and it sounded like crap. It made the 3a's sound like a PA system at a carnival. "Okay", I thought, "it just isn't right for the 3a system. I'll try it with my TSW610's." It made those sound like Panasonic Thrusters. No warmth, no definition or clarity, very grainy, just the kind of stereo you really can't wait to turn off. The opportunity came up to check out another model of nearly the same power by the same manufacturer, and what do you know...the same results. They both checked out OK electronically, but they just didn't have "it".

Long story short, wpc doesn't always mean better sound. It cost me a bundle to figure that out, but now I know.

Matt