AR 3a upgrade survey

[Carlspeak]

I'm considering offering a great upgrade kit for the subject speakers. It goes well beyond new caps and pots. However, before taking on the task (risk?) of putting such a kit together, I'd like to poll Acoustic Research readers to gage if such a project would be worthwhile for both myself and my customers.

Attached is a questionnaire. It has more details about the scope of the upgrade. Please consider completing it as instructed.

Thanks in advance to those to respond!

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Guest hilltroll67]

Popups? My browser doesn't like them. Try a different method?

Bob

[Carlspeak]

>Popups? My browser doesn't like them. Try a different

>method?

>

>Bob

I don't understand your problem. I tested the post and didn't get any popups. The link should work fine if you have M'Soft word or some other word processor that can open a .doc file. When you click on the attachment link, the file should open in your word processor. Answer the questions as instructed, safe the file and send it to me.

Hope this helps!

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[JKent]

Not really a popup. IE blocks the site, but you can just click on the yellow band below your toolbar and download the file (IF you trust Carl ;-) )

btw Carl: Do you have any recommendations for replacement tweeters for the Allison speakers?

[Carlspeak]

>Not really a popup. IE blocks the site, but you can just

>click on the yellow band below your toolbar and download the

>file (IF you trust Carl ;-) )

>

>btw Carl: Do you have any recommendations for replacement

>tweeters for the Allison speakers?

Sorry, I don't.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there;

Try eBay for used drivers.

I see tweeters every so often for sale, both with and without screens.

[Guest Eunomians]

I have sent you an email regarding your project; I am interested.

Cheers

[Carlspeak]

In the 7 days following my original survey post, there have been about 200 views and only 4 responses. A 2% response rate seems a "tad" low and not indicative of sufficient interest to justify developing the AR tweeter/mid upgrade kit.

CONCLUSION: I GUESS IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC AFTER ALL :-(

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[roundhome]

>In the 7 days following my original survey post, there have

>been about 200 views and only 4 responses. A 2% response rate

>seems a "tad" low and not indicative of sufficient

>interest to justify developing the AR tweeter/mid upgrade

>kit.

>

>CONCLUSION: I GUESS IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC AFTER ALL :-(

>

>Carl

>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

I have a Mac and can't get to you file to reply.

Jim

Thats one more

[Guest Eunomians]

I'm still interested despite our email exchange regarding few responses.

Cheers

[Guest The Enlightened One]

>In the 7 days following my original survey post, there have

>been about 200 views and only 4 responses. A 2% response rate

>seems a "tad" low and not indicative of sufficient

>interest to justify developing the AR tweeter/mid upgrade

>kit.

>

>CONCLUSION: I GUESS IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC AFTER ALL :-(

>

>Carl

>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

Its tough to market an expensive kit to people who have already done some leg work and know the costs involved in restoring a pair of AR3a speakers. People here would cut you out of the middle and just buy the parts they need directly from the cheapest source. You need to target customers who don't know anything about the process or don't know where to look for the parts. It kind of like a local speaker repair shop where he targets people who open the phone book to see his ad and stop there. I called him up to find replacement dust caps for my current AR-14 restore project and he tried to sell me a kit for $37. I know I can get a kit for less than $20 online so why would I buy from him. He probably is buying the kit from Parts Express and just marking it up.

[Carlspeak]

>>In the 7 days following my original survey post, there

>have

>>been about 200 views and only 4 responses. A 2% response

>rate

>>seems a "tad" low and not indicative of

>sufficient

>>interest to justify developing the AR tweeter/mid upgrade

>>kit.

>>

>>CONCLUSION: I GUESS IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC AFTER ALL

>:-(

>>

>>Carl

>>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

>

>

>Its tough to market an expensive kit to people who have

>already done some leg work and know the costs involved in

>restoring a pair of AR3a speakers. People here would cut you

>out of the middle and just buy the parts they need directly

>from the cheapest source. You need to target customers who

>don't know anything about the process or don't know where to

>look for the parts. It kind of like a local speaker repair

>shop where he targets people who open the phone book to see

>his ad and stop there. I called him up to find replacement

>dust caps for my current AR-14 restore project and he tried to

>sell me a kit for $37. I know I can get a kit for less than

>$20 online so why would I buy from him. He probably is buying

>the kit from Parts Express and just marking it up.

I believe your comments are based on the notion that all or most viewers of my post are DYI capable. I doubt that. My experience has proven that many customers have sought my help after visiting this discussion area.

I can assure you and other readers of this post that what I'm proposing in my survey isn't a simple Parts Express kit or e-bay refoam kit. It goes well beyond a few marked up DYI parts and a schematic like that offered by Layne Audio whom, many seeking to upgrade their speakers sought futilely in the past. At least I respond to e-mails and phone calls.

The premise for my survey was based on an apparently incorrect assumption that owners of AR3a and 2a speakers might want to improve their listening experience. After all, there probably are more AR owners who visit this site that any other loudspeaker site on the WWW.

The lesson I've learned is they most likely want to retain the vintage character of the speakers 100% and/or, are content with the sound they get with vintage components. You used a key word in your comments above (RESTORING). That implies, at least to me, that they want to get the speakers working and looking good again.

[RoyC]

Carl,

I have to go with The Enlightened One on this one. Also, I don't think we can interpret lack of interest in your business idea as lack of interest "in the music".

This forum appears to be primarily made up of folks interested in information about their "classic" speakers, and a fair number of hobbyists, and even professionals, who *freely* exchange information on restoration, repair and, to a limited degree, modification of these old products. You are asking folks to take quite a leap of faith to trust that your rather extensive re-design of the AR-3a (leaving only the original woofers and cabinets) would be worth the expense and effort.

I know you mean well, and your input is always of interest, but I believe "unsolicited" selling should be confined to the For Sale/Wanted section of this forum.

Roy

[dynaco_dan]

>Carl,

>

>I have to go with The Enlightened One on this one. Also, I

>don't think we can interpret lack of interest in your business

>idea as lack of interest "in the music".

>

>This forum appears to be primarily made up of folks interested

>in information about their "classic" speakers, and a

>fair number of hobbyists, and even professionals, who *freely*

>exchange information on restoration, repair and, to a limited

>degree, modification of these old products. You are asking

>folks to take quite a leap of faith to trust that your rather

>extensive re-design of the AR-3a (leaving only the original

>woofers and cabinets) would be worth the expense and effort.

>

>I know you mean well, and your input is always of interest,

>but I believe "unsolicited" selling should be

>confined to the For Sale/Wanted section of this forum.

>

>Roy

>

Hi there;

I saw Carl's original writeup and read it and that was all that I did.

I have been following this topic since to see how it flowed.

AR, among other brands, have been an interest of mine since about 1965.

I have bought new, and starting about 10 - 15 years ago up until today, used equipment as well, speakers in particular.

My AR-3A's are original (1970) and except for about twice, I have never had to touch the pots.

They work as always, clear and authoritively awesome.

I have been following every write-up of interest since I found this wonderful site a year or so ago.

I offer my 2 1/2 cents worth at times and I always enjoy reading someone elses advice.

The advice that I read, may or may not be of interest to me at that particular time, but I still print out interesting references for future options.

Locally, I did a survey of sorts, similar to Carl, but in my field of expertise.

I was in direct competition with our local Hydro Gas supplier, about 3/4 million customers.

I was a one man operation only, but, my results, the Hydro suppliers and Carl's results are very close to being 2%.

Carl may feel that there would be more interest and may feel a little let down.

He should actually feel pretty good with all of the interest that was shown.

I did not respond to Carl's survey because I do not plan on modifying my AR-3A's, yet.

In the future, someone whether they are a present member or not, will find their speaker has a problem.

They may not feel like removing the grille clothes and doing the monkeying around.

I am happy that there is someone like Carl who is interested in doing the work properly.

When I need a new driver, and ebay, etc, does not have them at a reasonable price, then I will need to re-consider what drivers to use at that time.

[Guest Eunomians]

Well I for one think that the idea of driver replacements/mods/ tweaks are fascinating. I love my AR-3a's. In fact, they are my favorite speakers. Improvements to them is a wonderful idea - and I welcome these sorts of ideas. Improving something that is already amazing, mmmm, now that sounds great to me. I think that Carl is on to something here.

Look, I understand what it means to preserve 'originality'. Heck, as a watchmaker that specializes in vintage wristwatches, originality is of the essence! But sometimes, there are some parts that are defective, worn out or just plain unavailable anymore.

Vintage audio gear is of the same realm as vintage timepieces to me. They can me tweaked and modded to perform better than original factory specs. I've got a Sansui 9090 that has been modded to 170 watts RMS. It's got new caps, new inrush protection circuit, a frequency response that rivals a Golden Retriever, etc... It looks 'stock', but under the hood, it is a Ferrari. Why did I modify it? Because it can sound vastly better than in stock form. Did I corrupt this fine vintage piece? IMHO, no I did not. The same could be said about vintage speakers, and, again, vintage watches.

I understand that there are folks that might disagree with me about my ruminations in this post. For the record, all of my vintage military watches and vintage Rolex sports models are 99% stock The same goes for my audio gear But my AR-3a's deserve an upgrade of sorts soon.

Cheers gentlemen.

[rl1856]

Someone contemplating a more modern sound for their classic AR speakers, for a price of $400 would more than likely consider new speakers. Just a thought.

Those that want to restore their vintage speakers, want to preserve what they have instead of creating something new.

Best,

Ross

[Pete B]

>>>In the 7 days following my original survey post,

>there

>>have

>>>been about 200 views and only 4 responses. A 2%

>response

>>rate

>>>seems a "tad" low and not indicative of

>>sufficient

>>>interest to justify developing the AR tweeter/mid

>upgrade

>>>kit.

>>>

>>>CONCLUSION: I GUESS IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC AFTER

>ALL

>>:-(

>>>

>>>Carl

>>>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

>>

>>

>>Its tough to market an expensive kit to people who have

>>already done some leg work and know the costs involved in

>>restoring a pair of AR3a speakers. People here would cut

>you

>>out of the middle and just buy the parts they need

>directly

>>from the cheapest source. You need to target customers

>who

>>don't know anything about the process or don't know where

>to

>>look for the parts. It kind of like a local speaker

>repair

>>shop where he targets people who open the phone book to

>see

>>his ad and stop there. I called him up to find

>replacement

>>dust caps for my current AR-14 restore project and he

>tried to

>>sell me a kit for $37. I know I can get a kit for less

>than

>>$20 online so why would I buy from him. He probably is

>buying

>>the kit from Parts Express and just marking it up.

>

>

>

>I believe your comments are based on the notion that all or

>most viewers of my post are DYI capable. I doubt that. My

>experience has proven that many customers have sought my help

>after visiting this discussion area.

>

>I can assure you and other readers of this post that what I'm

>proposing in my survey isn't a simple Parts Express kit or

>e-bay refoam kit. It goes well beyond a few marked up DYI

>parts and a schematic like that offered by Layne Audio whom,

>many seeking to upgrade their speakers sought futilely in the

>past. At least I respond to e-mails and phone calls.

>

>The premise for my survey was based on an apparently incorrect

>assumption that owners of AR3a and 2a speakers might want to

>improve their listening experience. After all, there probably

>are more AR owners who visit this site that any other

>loudspeaker site on the WWW.

>

>The lesson I've learned is they most likely want to retain the

>vintage character of the speakers 100% and/or, are content

>with the sound they get with vintage components. You used a

>key word in your comments above (RESTORING). That implies, at

>least to me, that they want to get the speakers working and

>looking good again.

>

Hi Carl,

My impression is that if a pair of old AR speakers are in good enough shape to warrant spending a lot of money on such a kit, then they are probably better off being kept original from a value standpoint and based on the fact that most here are collectors.

What does seem to make sense to me, would be to build your unauthorized "reissue", if it is close enough to be called a reissue, in say a Madisound or any suitable prefab cabinet. You'd have to identify a suitable woofer. You could also do blind A/B tests against a restored pair of 3A's as a sort of validation.

I've already pointed out the Aurasound 12" as a good replacement/upgrade for such a design, but I don't think there's much of a market for this concept:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...d=&page=14#9664

Seems it would be a buyer who wants the AR-3a sound without having to restore one, or live with one that's probably not up to specification.

Seems to me that coming up with a drop in tweeter replacement that sounds identical in blind A/B tests would be a seller. As would drop in midrange and woofer replacements. Of course the unusual woofer shape rules out any standard woofer, a properly modified Tonegen would probably be the way to go. Once you have all of these then a full system just involves a suitable box and crossover.

Don't know if this is in line with what you had in mind. I've casually, very casually, thought of doing an unauthorized reissue myself but I don't think there's much of a market for it, just as Ken found for the tweeters. And I do not have any interest in running a business selling such a product, the research and design are my main interests.

[dynaco_dan]

Hi Pete;

I own a few AR speakers, as well as other classic speaker systems, to say the very least.

A part needed replacing would have to be replaced with the nearest equivalent available part.

At the very least, I would build a new cabinet to invent a new speaker system, not gut everything and call it an AR-3A still.

In the following photo, which I am certain everyone here has seen before, is the bottom two are attempts at creating copycat AR-LST's or LST-2's using other brand components and cabinets.

Flattery and probably very interesting to listen to.

Unless this is that persons stacked single channel speaker system.

I am not poking fun at the owner or his or her work, been there, done that, with Dynaco drivers.

The builder went through a lot of work in designing and construction of those enclosures.

Would have been interesting to have had Allison, etc, do all the leg work correctly, in the classic days.

[Pete B]

>Hi Pete;

>

>I own a few AR speakers, as well as other classic speaker

>systems, to say the very least.

>

>A part needed replacing would have to be replaced with the

>nearest equivalent available part.

>

>At the very least, I would build a new cabinet to invent a new

>speaker system, not gut everything and call it an AR-3A

>still.

>

>In the following photo, which I am certain everyone here has

>seen before, is the bottom two are attempts at creating

>copycat AR-LST's or LST-2's using other brand components and

>cabinets.

>

>Flattery and probably very interesting to listen to.

>

>Unless this is that persons stacked single channel speaker

>system.

>

>I am not poking fun at the owner or his or her work, been

>there, done that, with Dynaco drivers.

>

>Would have been interesting to have had Allison, etc, do all

>the leg work correctly, in the classic days.

I suppose we're in agreement as I also said not to gut an original AR-3a.

Not sure I follow your comment about Allison, "do all the leg work correctly"? Not following here?

I don't want to hi-jack Carl's thread here, just wanted to offer my opinion and a few thoughts.

[Carlspeak]

>>>>In the 7 days following my original survey post,

>>there

>>>have

>>>>been about 200 views and only 4 responses. A 2%

>>response

>>>rate

>>>>seems a "tad" low and not indicative of

>>>sufficient

>>>>interest to justify developing the AR tweeter/mid

>>upgrade

>>>>kit.

>>>>

>>>>CONCLUSION: I GUESS IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC

>AFTER

>>ALL

>>>:-(

>>>>

>>>>Carl

>>>>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

>>>

>>>

>>>Its tough to market an expensive kit to people who

>have

>>>already done some leg work and know the costs involved

>in

>>>restoring a pair of AR3a speakers. People here would

>cut

>>you

>>>out of the middle and just buy the parts they need

>>directly

>>>from the cheapest source. You need to target

>customers

>>who

>>>don't know anything about the process or don't know

>where

>>to

>>>look for the parts. It kind of like a local speaker

>>repair

>>>shop where he targets people who open the phone book

>to

>>see

>>>his ad and stop there. I called him up to find

>>replacement

>>>dust caps for my current AR-14 restore project and he

>>tried to

>>>sell me a kit for $37. I know I can get a kit for

>less

>>than

>>>$20 online so why would I buy from him. He probably

>is

>>buying

>>>the kit from Parts Express and just marking it up.

>>

>>

>>

>>I believe your comments are based on the notion that all

>or

>>most viewers of my post are DYI capable. I doubt that. My

>>experience has proven that many customers have sought my

>help

>>after visiting this discussion area.

>>

>>I can assure you and other readers of this post that what

>I'm

>>proposing in my survey isn't a simple Parts Express kit

>or

>>e-bay refoam kit. It goes well beyond a few marked up DYI

>>parts and a schematic like that offered by Layne Audio

>whom,

>>many seeking to upgrade their speakers sought futilely in

>the

>>past. At least I respond to e-mails and phone calls.

>>

>>The premise for my survey was based on an apparently

>incorrect

>>assumption that owners of AR3a and 2a speakers might want

>to

>>improve their listening experience. After all, there

>probably

>>are more AR owners who visit this site that any other

>>loudspeaker site on the WWW.

>>

>>The lesson I've learned is they most likely want to retain

>the

>>vintage character of the speakers 100% and/or, are

>content

>>with the sound they get with vintage components. You used

>a

>>key word in your comments above (RESTORING). That implies,

>at

>>least to me, that they want to get the speakers working

>and

>>looking good again.

>>

>

>Hi Carl,

>

>My impression is that if a pair of old AR speakers are in good

>enough shape to warrant spending a lot of money on such a kit,

>then they are probably better off being kept original from a

>value standpoint and based on the fact that most here are

>collectors.

>

>What does seem to make sense to me, would be to build your

>unauthorized "reissue", if it is close enough to be

>called a reissue, in say a Madisound or any suitable prefab

>cabinet. You'd have to identify a suitable woofer. You could

>also do blind A/B tests against a restored pair of 3A's as a

>sort of validation.

>

>I've already pointed out the Aurasound 12" as a good

>replacement/upgrade for such a design, but I don't think

>there's much of a market for this concept:

>

>http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...d=&page=14#9664

>Seems it would be a buyer who wants the AR-3a sound without

>having to restore one, or live with one that's probably not up

>to specification.

>

>Seems to me that coming up with a drop in tweeter replacement

>that sounds identical in blind A/B tests would be a seller.

>As would drop in midrange and woofer replacements. Of course

>the unusual woofer shape rules out any standard woofer, a

>properly modified Tonegen would probably be the way to go.

>Once you have all of these then a full system just involves a

>suitable box and crossover.

>

>Don't know if this is in line with what you had in mind. I've

>casually, very casually, thought of doing an unauthorized

>reissue myself but I don't think there's much of a market for

>it, just as Ken found for the tweeters. And I do not have any

>interest in running a business selling such a product, the

>research and design are my main interests.

>

>

Thanks Pete for reviving this post. I've been busy the past few months working on this project in my spare time. Two xover designs have been developed to compliment a new 8 ohm tweeter and midrange driver that blend quite nicely with the original 4 ohm woofer. One, does not include pots and the other does. Both sound terrific with at least equal sonic properties to original drivers. This may be of interest to those who have poorly or non-working drivers in their 3a's and can't find original replacement parts for an authentic restoration.

Test measurements show significant improvements in impedance performance over the frequency spectrum compared to a control. Following some more testing I'll probably post a brief update in the 'for sale' area here that will point interested parties to my web site where there will be details and photos.

I did get some favorable responses to my survey sent directly to me. Obviously, most viewers of the original post were not interested and that's fine with me. I couldn't support a very broad, favorable response anyway. Instead, was interested in seeing if at least a few AR owners might be interested in the concept and evidently succeeded.

Nothing against restorers. That's were most of the value in these classics will still reside.

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers;-)

[Guest BobK]

First, I did complete the survey and email it.

Upgrading classic speakers can be a touchy issue. If a AR 3a is upgraded with a new tweeter, midrange and crossover ..... it's obviously not a 3a anymore.

Perhaps rather than offering an upgrade, some may prefer a whole new speaker with the improved tweeter, midrange and crossover ????

Bob

[onplane]

> Two xover designs have been developed to compliment a new

>8 ohm tweeter and midrange driver that blend quite nicely with

>the original 4 ohm woofer.

>

>

>Test measurements show significant improvements in impedance

>performance over the frequency spectrum compared to a control.

>

>Nothing against restorers. That's were most of the value in

>these classics will still reside.

>

>It's all about the music

>

>Carl

>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers;-)

Hi, Carl!

I have two questions on your new designs:

1. When we mix drivers with different impedance, the problem is getting spl to match. Will the 8 ohm drivers put out similar spl at the same voltage as the 4 ohm woofer?

2. What do you mean by "significant improvements in impedance performance"?

Regards,

Jerry

[Carlspeak]

I have two questions on your new designs:

1. When we mix drivers with different impedance, the problem is getting spl to match. Will the 8 ohm drivers put out similar spl at the same voltage as the 4 ohm woofer?

with the use of correct resistor values in series/parallel with the 8 ohm drivers SPL's can be made to match. Thus voltage has to be altered so SPL's match. Listening tests with the new drivers indicate no significant sonic difference with a control 3a as manufactured. In the POT design, it's easy to make necessary adjustments to match SPL's.

2. What do you mean by "significant improvements in impedance performance"?

Overall variation in impedance has been reduced with the new designs. Detail test data will be published on my web site as promised in my

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[soundminded]

It is not possible for a hobbyist to successfully reverse engineer an AR3a or an AR LST. The original drivers are simply no longer available. All currently manufactured drivers vary in design from the AR drivers significantly. All existing AR drivers have been aging for forty years or more and no longer perform the way they originally did. I think this was pointed out by Tom Tyson in a thread a year or two ago and I think he is right. It would be a challenge to industrially reverse engineer them from original drawings and specifications for the drivers but as Ken Kantor pointed out, there is not a sufficient likely market for them to justify any manufacturer going to the expense of trying, it would have to be a "labor of love" at considerable risk of financial loss and so far, nobody with the money and facilities loves them enough to try. Modern woofers using polypropylene cones will not perform similarly to the paper cones of the originals especially at the upper end of their range. There are no tweeters I am aware of which compare to the AR3a/AR LST tweeters. Even the tweeters in AR9 are not the same having a semi horn loading groove around the cone restricting dispersion. Until recently, there were few if any dome midranges which compared closely either, especially at the low end of their range however, there may be a few models currently available which come reasonably close.

There is no theoretical reason why the crossover design can't be modified to make 8 ohm versions of the drivers perform identically with original 4 ohm versions of the drivers. These are simple filter circuits but because of differences in DC resistance of the voice coils it may not be quite as straightforward as it first appears to get an exact match. So it should be possible to substitute an AR2ax or an AR5 tweeter for an AR3a tweeter but not as a direct drop in. The real problem with the impedence of the AR3 family of speakers was the woofer whose impedence at some frequencies was very low. This caused and can still cause problems for amplifiers especially marginally stable solid state amplifiers (a friend of mine blew up an early HH Scott receiver with a pair of AR3s.) However, most high quality solid state amplifiers of any era should have no problem with them. Loading at higher frequencies by the midrange and tweeter should present no problem for any amplifier.

About the best you can do is to either restore surviving units by canabalizing parts wherever you can acquire them from or use the original concepts to engineer your own versions using contemporary drivers. Personally, I would look into the recently available 12" Dayton reference 12" woofer. It has a low Fs (not quite as low as AR's) low Vas, low Qms, and a high Xmax. It can also handle substantial amounts of power but it does have a polypropylene cone. A 4 way version closer to AR9 using an 8" lower midrange with a paper cone might be a better idea. I've been toying with a project like that myself. BTW, the Tonegen 1259 is a superb woofer but it also has a polypropylene cone and its Vas is about twice that of the AR 12" so it requires a much larger enclosure to achieve comparable results at its low end.

[Guest BobK]

Choosing a favorite speaker is often subjective but I tend to agree.

Someone looking for a moderately priced "modern sounding" speaker may prefer some of the models offered by companies like Paradigm or Axiom to a revamped 3a.

On the other hand, those who love the sound of the original AR 3a likely would not want to replace the existing tweeter, midrange and cross-over's with third party replacements.

I personally do not think there would be a big demand for a 3a upgrade kit ..... but on the other hand, I tend to be more wrong than right.

Bob