Inter-connects

[frankmarsi]

Pardon the subject matter, but has anyone tried the "Vampire-Wire'

interconnect cables. I referring to the mid-level "CC" line.These cables seem to be a quality product and the price seems fair. A one meter pair for approx. $20.00 I need about 6 sets. I've only been able to find the manufacturer and various distributors and all ask the same price, anyone see them for less?

I realize there is a maddening array of expensive cable choices out there, however with-in my limited budget, I'm featuring these will be just fine. Could one imagine spending more on cables than my whole system costs? It seems as though this company offers more quality for the money they ask, a welcome change from this greedy,celebrity influenced culture we live in today.

Please any one out there with any comments at all, please let me know, otherwise you're keeping me from spending more money on 'non-essential-material' things, instead of on food and clothing.

Thanks, Frank Marsi

frankmarsi@verizon.net

P.S. Anyone noticed if you're inclined to waste time looking for old AR stuff as I do. I garnered another pair of used 1972, AR 12 inch woofers off of EBay for a decent price. Now I sit and wait and worry if they'll work properly or not. They were 'torn' from a good condition AR-3a, (like a baby from a mother's arms), and although I strongly feel destroying a fine set of AR's for profit is absurd and hate-ful, I wasn't going to let them land in someone else's hands. I feel that the 1972 to '75 or so woofers are the best, all things considered. Any comments?

Please, oh great and powerful "AR-Genie" let these woofers be O.K., as the seller claimed they were, but he was the luni-bird who destroyed the set-up in the first place, what did he know?

FM

[dynaco_dan]

>Pardon the subject matter, but has anyone tried the

>"Vampire-Wire'

>interconnect cables. I referring to the mid-level

>"CC" line.These cables seem to be a quality product

>and the price seems fair. A one meter pair for approx. $20.00

>I need about 6 sets. I've only been able to find the

>manufacturer and various distributors and all ask the same

>price, anyone see them for less?

>I realize there is a maddening array of expensive cable

>choices out there, however with-in my limited budget, I'm

>featuring these will be just fine. Could one imagine spending

>more on cables than my whole system costs? It seems as though

>this company offers more quality for the money they ask, a

>welcome change from this greedy,celebrity influenced culture

>we live in today.

>Please any one out there with any comments at all, please let

>me know, otherwise you're keeping me from spending more money

>on 'non-essential-material' things, instead of on food and

>clothing.

>Thanks, Frank Marsi

>frankmarsi@verizon.net

>

>P.S. Anyone noticed if you're inclined to waste time looking

>for old AR stuff as I do. I garnered another pair of used

>1972, AR 12 inch woofers off of EBay for a decent price. Now I

>sit and wait and worry if they'll work properly or not. They

>were 'torn' from a good condition AR-3a, (like a baby from a

>mother's arms), and although I strongly feel destroying a fine

>set of AR's for profit is absurd and hate-ful, I wasn't going

>to let them land in someone else's hands. I feel that the 1972

>to '75 or so woofers are the best, all things considered. Any

>comments?

>Please, oh great and powerful "AR-Genie" let these

>woofers be O.K., as the seller claimed they were, but he was

>the luni-bird who destroyed the set-up in the first place,

>what did he know?

>FM

Hi Frank;

Perhaps some of the members will comment on what cables they finally settled on.

I am certain a few tried different cables before finally settling on their favourites.

I used drugstore cables, in other words, absolutely nothing special, until I had an opportunity to buy Kimber PBJ cables at $35.00 a pair.

The only exception to that statement was AR supplied turntable cables and AR Tuner supplied cables.

With the Rabco arm mounted on my AR turntable, the PBJ's are too stiff to use.

I never tried to see if I could even hear a difference, I just accepted that they were better, I used Stereophile comments only.

In reading Stereophiles list of components used to test the Smaller Advents, I don't even rate a bottom of their list piece.

I am looking forward to buying some wonderful, Wendy Carlos, music later this year.

I just bought an ebay AR 12" woofer for $.99, we shall see what arrives in the mail.

Good luck, Frank.

[roundhome]

>Pardon the subject matter, but has anyone tried the

>"Vampire-Wire'

>interconnect cables. I referring to the mid-level

>"CC" line.These cables seem to be a quality product

>and the price seems fair. A one meter pair for approx. $20.00

>I need about 6 sets. I've only been able to find the

>manufacturer and various distributors and all ask the same

>price, anyone see them for less?

>I realize there is a maddening array of expensive cable

>choices out there, however with-in my limited budget, I'm

>featuring these will be just fine. Could one imagine spending

>more on cables than my whole system costs? It seems as though

>this company offers more quality for the money they ask, a

>welcome change from this greedy,celebrity influenced culture

>we live in today.

>Please any one out there with any comments at all, please let

>me know, otherwise you're keeping me from spending more money

>on 'non-essential-material' things, instead of on food and

>clothing.

>Thanks, Frank Marsi

>frankmarsi@verizon.net

>

>P.S. Anyone noticed if you're inclined to waste time looking

>for old AR stuff as I do. I garnered another pair of used

>1972, AR 12 inch woofers off of EBay for a decent price. Now I

>sit and wait and worry if they'll work properly or not. They

>were 'torn' from a good condition AR-3a, (like a baby from a

>mother's arms), and although I strongly feel destroying a fine

>set of AR's for profit is absurd and hate-ful, I wasn't going

>to let them land in someone else's hands. I feel that the 1972

>to '75 or so woofers are the best, all things considered. Any

>comments?

>Please, oh great and powerful "AR-Genie" let these

>woofers be O.K., as the seller claimed they were, but he was

>the luni-bird who destroyed the set-up in the first place,

>what did he know?

>FM

Frank don't worry about the AR 3As I will pick up the cabinets and grills friday and have them up again by next week to bad all the parts are going to the other side of the country we don't get many AR stuff for pick up over here but i also will get some AR92s saterday I would have picked up all the drivers but to many were after them.

jim

[rrcrain]

It's my opinion that interconnects might make a difference depending on the equipment they are connecting and what you compare them to.

I originally used the free interconnects that came with my amps and preamp thinking they were good enough; after all wire is wire. My stereo is a component system meaning I have a lot of interconnects and I began to notice something odd and undesirable. I was hearing a hum in the system and its volumn could be influenced by moving the interconnects in relation to the power cords. The "free" interconnects were very poorly shielded and were picking up a 60hz hum from one or more power cords from the stereo itself. Simple Rat Shack interconnect solved most of this problem and it was cheap.

In recent years, I was bitten by the bug to replace all of my "trash" wire and chose to use the Kimber PBJ or a pure silver Audio Magic wire. I can say without hesitation that this pricy wire did not ruin the sound of my system... The only real change I've noticed is my amps appear to run cooler with the Kimber 8TC wire compared to zip cord.

High priced interconnect wire may be appropriate when connecting certain amp/preamp combinations together, Some tube amps do not do well when driven by a solid state preamp and the added capacitance or inducance of some of the special configuration wire can help to get the to work properly together. Given some of these interconnects are $1,000 and up, I'd opt to replace the amp or preamp first.

Richard

[JKent]

There is, after all, a happy medium. bluejeanscable.com and monoprice.com sell excellent high-quality cables at reasonable prices. You don't have to settle for the free stuff or waste money that might otherwise be better spent (on food, records, AR speakers) buying "esoteric" cables.

[soundminded]

I think one mistake people make evaluating audio equipment is to compare two things with each other rather than to compare each individually to an independent reference. This may not be so easy with audio amplifiers but it is easy with wire, especially interconnects. Rather than compare one possibly flawed wire with another possibly flawed wire, I prefer to compare a wire I am contemplating using with an "idealized" wire which is a shunt. A shunt is simply a bypass and while people who dismiss double blind or any other fair test will always find fault with whatever test you come up with, it is possible to devise a reasonable test which comes close enough that most people would feel is reliable. You probably have everything you need to test interconnects. All you need is a preamp or integrated amp or receiver with unbuffered tape outputs and a tape monitor input. Just connect the cables to be tested between the tape outputs and the monitor inputs. When you switch between source and tape, you are alternately inserting the wires in the circuit and bypassing them. And difference in sound is the characteristic deficiency of the wire. Keep in mind its function is to facilitate connecting an electrical signal from one point in a circuit to another without changing it, not to make your sound system sound "better" by altering it. Personally, I have found that $1 Radio Shack interconnects have always worked perfectly. And this is hardly surprising since they will also work perfectly with the video output of a VCR having over 350 times the bandwidth required for high fidelity audio reproduction. Any interconnect cable which reduces output level even slightly should IMO be judged unacceptably flawed. As for quality of build and reliability as well as effectiveness of shielding, that's an entirely separate issue. Even so, there are many very inexpensive cables which meet these tests as well.

[rrcrain]

I read a very well written article a few years ago on the topic of interconnects, speaker wire and simple bi-amping. In a nutshell, the author took the time and presented the math on when, where and how different interconnects will have an effect. The major locations were between preamps and preamps that had major mismatches in input versus out inpedance. In these cases, interconnects with high capacitance or inductance could get the equipment to work together better than a simple shunt. Hopefully, not your everyday audio setup. As a general rule, I will never tell someone that "X" wire will make their system sound better. I will tell them it might and if interested, deal with a reputable shop that allows them to take it home and try it out first before buying. The owners of the local audiophile store are very clear they carry the stuff but do not "sell" it. People come in and buy it on their own and they make a good living selling what people want to buy.

Concerning simple biamping. his math suggested simple biamping would have a very minor impact and he considered it a waste of money. Using an active crossover was a totally different story.

[soundminded]

>I read a very well written article a few years ago on the

>topic of interconnects, speaker wire and simple bi-amping. In

>a nutshell, the author took the time and presented the math on

>when, where and how different interconnects will have an

>effect. The major locations were between preamps and preamps

>that had major mismatches in input versus out inpedance. In

>these cases, interconnects with high capacitance or inductance

>could get the equipment to work together better than a simple

>shunt. Hopefully, not your everyday audio setup.

The purpose of a properly designed "interconnect" is to be an insignificant circuit element in a network, its values of LC and R so small as to play no appreciable role in the connection between the output of one device and the input of another. Ideally, the output of an electronic component has a zero impedence and the input has an infinite impedence. In the real world this isn't true and sometimes some components are not only very far from ideal, they are actually very poorly designed. Nevertheless, that being the case, at worst the interconnecting wire becomes a distributed element filter in a linear network. This is a fancy way of saying it is an "equalizer", it changes the frequency response. The least expensive, most effective, most controllable, most predictable way to correct this is with an electronic equalizer. The most expensive, least controllable, least predictable, least effective way is to experiment endlessly with expensive exotic wires some of which can cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars. Audiophiles waste their time and money on them endlessly. And of course, if and when you find just the one that does what you want it to in one system, as soon as you install it in another, it is unlikely to have any benefit, it may in fact create even worse problems than otherwise. And there is always the possibility that a wire, especially a speaker wire with high capacitance or inductance can send some amplifiers into spontaneous ultrasonic oscillation and destroy them. It happens.

>As a general

>rule, I will never tell someone that "X" wire will

>make their system sound better. I will tell them it might and

>if interested, deal with a reputable shop that allows them to

>take it home and try it out first before buying. The owners of

>the local audiophile store are very clear they carry the stuff

>but do not "sell" it. People come in and buy it on

>their own and they make a good living selling what people want

>to buy.

The only reason this stuff is still on the market is that the FTC hasn't gotten around to forcing the manufacturers to stop their misleading advertising. If you read most of the ad copy, they will tell you lots of useless things about how the cables are made, make you worry about what's wrong with the ones you have, and suggest that theirs is the magic bullet which cures all ills. Their lawyers will usually never allow them to make any explicit claims of superiority. Nevertheless, the FTC rules are clear. If they make or imply a claim that theirs are better, they must be able to back it up with proven scientific evidence before they advertise it that way. A money back if not satisfied offer is not a legally acceptable substitute. For this reason, the manufacturers usually rely on verbal high pressure at the retail level to sell the product. They encourage this by giving sales people huge incentives for successfully moving their merchandise. Internet chat boards are also very useful to them as audiophiles' myths and fears tend to reinforce each other.

>Concerning simple biamping. his math suggested simple biamping

>would have a very minor impact and he considered it a waste of

>money. Using an active crossover was a totally different

>story.

Active crossovers and "bi-amping" or tri amping are one and the same. Perhps you meant "bi-wiring."

BTW, the electrical engineers who devised the solutions to the problems of optimal wires to use for audio equipment and equipment in other electical networks were neither deaf nor stupid, nor were they indifferent to the optimal solution to the problem. Quite the contrary, they solved it many many decades ago and their solutions are just as valid today as they were then. The low cost of the best wire for the job is testimony to its universal acceptance. The problem is, it's so cheap you can't make much profit out of it.

[rrcrain]

Indeed, I meant bi-wiring, or bi-amping without using an active crossover. I use an active crossover and am still amazed at the difference it makes. out of curiosity, I have tried bi-wiring and bi-amping without the crossover in place; Both of which I consider a waste of time and money.

I do believe you did an excellent job of restating in more technical terms that which I attempted to describe in simplistic terms. I'll have to see if I can dig out the article I referred to. The author was extremely specific in his examples where they had an effect, why they had an effect and where they did not. The 2 line breakdown was this:

Good equipment match: doesn't make much if any difference.

Bad equipment match: may make a big difference.

My opinion is if the match is bad, replace one of the components, but as your well aware, not everyone agrees with my opinion.

Speaker and interconnect wires are near the level of religion. Either you believe they work or you don't and no one's going to change either party's opinion.

[soundminded]

>Good equipment match: doesn't make much if any difference.

>

>Bad equipment match: may make a big difference.

>

One of the poorest(IMO worst) ideas is the so called "passive preamplifier", a misnomer if ever there was one because it amplifies nothing. In fact it's nothing more than a box, a few jacks, a switch or two and a volume control potentionmeter yet it can cost many hundreds of dollars. A true preamplifier places its volume control between gain stages buffering it from any line or load impedence problems. Even those who make them recommend that they be used near their maximum gain because they have less audible effect on FR that way. And what if that makes your sound system much much much too loud? Well, you're out of luck.

[dynaco_dan]

>Pardon the subject matter, but has anyone tried the

>"Vampire-Wire'

>interconnect cables. I referring to the mid-level

>"CC" line.These cables seem to be a quality product

>and the price seems fair. A one meter pair for approx. $20.00

>I need about 6 sets. I've only been able to find the

>manufacturer and various distributors and all ask the same

>price, anyone see them for less?

>I realize there is a maddening array of expensive cable

>choices out there, however with-in my limited budget, I'm

>featuring these will be just fine. Could one imagine spending

>more on cables than my whole system costs? It seems as though

>this company offers more quality for the money they ask, a

>welcome change from this greedy,celebrity influenced culture

>we live in today.

>Please any one out there with any comments at all, please let

>me know, otherwise you're keeping me from spending more money

>on 'non-essential-material' things, instead of on food and

>clothing.

>Thanks, Frank Marsi

>frankmarsi@verizon.net

>

>P.S. Anyone noticed if you're inclined to waste time looking

>for old AR stuff as I do. I garnered another pair of used

>1972, AR 12 inch woofers off of EBay for a decent price. Now I

>sit and wait and worry if they'll work properly or not. They

>were 'torn' from a good condition AR-3a, (like a baby from a

>mother's arms), and although I strongly feel destroying a fine

>set of AR's for profit is absurd and hate-ful, I wasn't going

>to let them land in someone else's hands. I feel that the 1972

>to '75 or so woofers are the best, all things considered. Any

>comments?

>Please, oh great and powerful "AR-Genie" let these

>woofers be O.K., as the seller claimed they were, but he was

>the luni-bird who destroyed the set-up in the first place,

>what did he know?

>FM

Hi Frank;

The AR-Genie is here now, Frank.

You can relax now and remove your woofer basket from your head.

I am all powerful and knowledgeable, I have all the answers, it's only the questions I have problems with. lol lol lol

Frank, you have asked a question that I am certain every member has asked when starting out in hifi.

What cables do I buy?

I am writing this story hopefully for the benefit of our English as a second language members.

When you ask us for help, we offer you our best experience.

We do not sell or manufacture cables, we are as unbiased as you will find outside of the cable industry.

Our biases are with what we hear, what we are told by others, and what we read about.

I do believe that I can trust any members opinion as to which cable to buy, without hesitation, if I was to be on the market for new cables.

All inter-connects are, and I am assuming 1 meter or 1 yard long, using as an example, with phono connectors on each end assembled at the cable factory.

Copper wire can only be so pure and be manufactured competively.

I believe all cables use oxygen free copper now, some use silver coating and possibly other coatings.

They may have multi-strands in each lead and be twisted in a special interwoven direction and the leads then specially wound together between the connectors.

One end may not be grounded, to reduce ground loops.

Every cable will have a resistance, measured by scientific measuring instruments, and will have a insignificant, but measurable, resistance for the meter of wire.

We are talking many decimal points for precision.

Add the connectors, which are also made from different materials varying from the el cheapo store versions to WBT (spel) or better if there is better.

They may be machined solid pure copper gold plated or other coatings.

Gold is a great material for not oxidizing, silver is a better conductor but oxidizes badly.

The el cheapo connectors may be steel with an electro-plating.

The el cheapo and the golden cables may have a slight measureable resistance difference, under scientific testing means, our digital VOM's may not be precise enough to detect that small amount.

The difference the pre-amp output sees and the amplifier input sees is slightly different.

Now throw in 2 other very important issues as well, capacitance and inductance.

There again, using scientific test equipment, the capacitance and inductance will also be slightly different for each cable.

Each of these will cause a difference of the signal the amp receives and of the pre-amp load.

This is all part of the loop, change one of the three, resistance, capacitance or inductance and you will hear a difference.

This is the same with speaker leads, particularly because they are also not shielded.

An un-shielded cable can, as written by others, pickup RF if laid too close together with the ac line.

Stereophiles top 100 hifi list, has Polk cables as a problem with blowing up some amplifiers, back about 1975.

The cables were, I believe, made in China to their specs.

This may have been the earliest, "Golden Cable", at least early in the infancy of hifi cables.

That is the only heads up I have ever read, regarding something to be aware of with cables.

It would be interesting to read about that cable issue, in it's entirety.

We all are under a lot of sales pressure when we enter hifi salons, they only have one shot at us, maybe.

It may be hard for them to sell us highend cables for Wal-mart systems, but if you drive a Hummer, make over $100K per year and wear a $1,000.00 suit, you will be more of a target, than wearing jeans and sandles and driving a beater, like me.

Sales persons on commission, are having more pressure all the time, to sell.

Go to, avahifi.com, where Frank Van Alstine, challenges the, "Golden Cable," manufacturers to send him a sample of their, "Magic Cables,".

Follow his write-ups month by month, to see how many manufacturers followed up.

I know I have not given a list of recommended cables.

I hope this is of value to someone.

[frankmarsi]

"quote"

"" I am looking forward to buying some wonderful, Wendy Carlos, music later this year.""

"" I just bought an ebay AR 12" woofer for $.99, we shall see what arrives in the mail.""

6-9-06

Dear Vern,

I'd like to know where I was when you were thinking this.

FM

[dynaco_dan]

>"quote"

>

> "" I am looking forward to buying some

>wonderful, Wendy Carlos, music later this year.""

>

>"" I just bought an ebay AR 12" woofer for

>$.99, we shall see what arrives in the mail.""

>

>

>

>6-9-06

>Dear Vern,

>I'd like to know where I was when you were thinking this.

>FM

Hi Frank;

I just thought I would throw a plug in for a lesser well known US celebrity, who set a standard for something very special in hifi, many years ago.

I was thinking of her when I wrote to you, I had a note for years to buy her earliest synthesized music, decades ago.

A Clockwork Orange, The Shining, and Tron has music samples of her work, and she has a very nicely setup website.

The $.99 woofer is going to cost me $33.99 US S&H shipped via UPS.

They hit us hard at our border with surcharges.

If it's a dud, the seller only refunds me $.99, he can't lose.

[dynaco_dan]

Hi again;

I forgot to add something I read in, I believe, The Audio Amatuer magazine many years ago.

A person found that there was noise in the sound system in a house and found at that time, a small adapter you screw a light bulb into to save money.

It apparently caused noise, which was audible over the stereo system.

Something I haven't read about is, what effect has flourescent lighting on our sound system.

When my electronic ignition was energizing, in my old furnace, I could hear the buzz on the sound system.

Stereophile has 2 powerline filters recommended for powerline filtering in the top 100 hifi goodies list.

It has an interesting comment about plugging in a pre-amp and the noticeable audible difference.

Another TAA writer did a speaker cable test and if I remember correctly, parallel multi-cable (10 - 20 leads), connect every even wire and every odd wire to make a pair of wires for speakers.

I believe this was the least expensive and tested the best sound wise.

Too bad I can't post the articles for all to read, in it's entirety.

[Guest russwollman]

Another choice for good cables. I have a few pair of the RCA-type cables. The web address: http://www.signalcable.com/

[dynaco_dan]

>Another choice for good cables. I have a few pair of the

>RCA-type cables. The web address: http://www.signalcable.com/

Thanks for the suggestion, Russ.

Many years ago, I read that if you were going to rough in a room for a sound system, it was suggested using BX electrical cable.

BX cable is used primarily where physically exposed damage may cut into the wires.

It is used mostly on heating equipment and commercial wiring.

It has a spiral wound outer aluminum cover, with 2, 3 or 4, 14 or 12 guage solid insulated wires inside and a bare copper ground wire.

If one was to use this with metallic boxes, the entire wire system would be shielded as well.

The covers of the boxes should terminate with, perhaps, dual banana jacks or similar, not the regular electrical outlet fixtures.