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AR turntable 1


dynaco_dan

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Hi there;

A few little tips for those of you that own an AR turntable.

If you have a motor pulley that needs to be raised or removed.

Just lay 2 large spoons on the deck with the mouths rightside up under the pulley.

Pressing evenly down on the handles, the pulley will rise up or off of the shaft.

The pulley has a split snug fitting shaft.

Do not rock the spoons back and forth or you may bend the pulley.

With the power cord plugged in, but the switch turned off, you will feel a slight vibration from the motor, this is normal.

Re-lube the belt with Talc powder.

Replacement belts can usually be bought wherever tape recorders and deck are serviced, just be sure of your measurements and do not use one that is too tight.

When manufactured, all of the turntable specifications were published but only start up time was not up to broadcast standards.

Low rumble, speed accuracy and feedback isolation set new standards for the future.

Apparently AR lost money on sales of the earliest turntables because of the usual startup costs and low volume parts purchases.

When the motor is starting up, a slight growl is heard and this is quite normal.

Do not oil the motor and keep oil off of the belt, motor pulley and the inner platter rim.

Use glass wax to re-surface your plexiglass top.

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5-26-06

AR turntable?

Anyway, sounds like good advice regarding this fragile, for me, stupidly built, bad turntable, in my summation. I bought mine new in 1972 for one hundred and nine bucks or something like that at E.J. Korvettes. Wait, maybe it was $69.00, I can’t remember. It sounded way better than my Garrard lowest end model I had first. The ‘Garrard’ had an entre level Shure M3D or something like that I bought for it at a separate purchase cause the word was back then was, you had to buy a piece here and a piece there, one at a time and read all about it before ‘getting-it’. I chose the Shure little black and fat looking, best one for my budget being 22 yrs. old. Today I’ve seen it sell for $200. bucks on EBay, with a new box, found in the back of an old stereo store’s shelve, mint. I paid $15. or $29., maybe $32. bucks for it when it was new in ’67,that was good money back then. I think it originally came out in ‘66.

But after I started to use and turn the volume up on the AR TT when I bought it, it started to ‘acoustically-feed-back’ with terrible rumbling, woofer-blowing ugly sounds at un-believably high levels. I tried everything, from homemade feet of foam and rubber, (foam, kind ‘a rare at the time), to actual sheets of 4-inch thick foam at $40. for a 24-inch by 18-inch piece, again high prices back then, foam was almost still ‘new’ at the time for the ‘regular-public’. It didn’t work, nothing did. I tried mounting it on actual bricks on the wall shelve I had it on, almost anything one could think of, I tried. And for you Vern I had started ‘fusing’ my speakers back then because of the constantly blowing of the tweeters.I even bought the 'fuse-kit' directly from AR for a really low price. And in spite of many, and many more words and letters with AR, I relegated myself to lower listening levels to avoid the woofers pumping at such scary rates I blew many tweeters and woofers out just to enjoy nearly realistic levels. By the time I had bought a different turntable, the same I use presently, I had gone thru 3 woofers, 6 or 7 -3/4 inch high ends, and 3 mid-ranges. And vern, my Dyna ST-120 wasn’t ‘clipping’ either. My speakers were much like my ex-wife was from the early 90’s, ‘more out of the house than in the house’.

By late 1972,early '73 AR knew who I was; I was furious and going to be a satisfied customer no matter what! Hey, after all I owned two of their ‘top of the line ‘ speakers while using their turntable, my AR-3a’s, new for me earlier that same year. But guess what, much like other un-successful matters in my life, AR choose to ignore me. I finally gave up and stored the AR table out of site, after trying many different cartridges and such before giving up on it completely. Back then I was running tube pre-amp and SS amp.

Maybe some day I might even re-build it like some people do. My replacement table has lasted since 1974 and still operates fine today. A new stylus for my Shure Type3 is good enough for me, actually it’s great all things considered in a vintage system like I operate. And to all you outrageously priced turntable manufacturers of today; I still believe in ‘direct-drive’ tables. It’s wonderfully quiet and accurate, also seemingly impervious to acoustic-feedback. You can have your 'exposed belts', dust attracting tables with your separate power supplies and pulleys and such, they all seem dumbly back-ward in design. I’m quite happy with a vintage table, a Tannoy /Micro-Seiki TM55. Back then a premier table, even better than the ‘Empire 598’ and better or equal than a ‘Thorens’. Designed in England, built in Japan, it's simple purity to operate. It’s the same with my speakers and amps, all of my 33+year old equipment for that matter. And although my gear is not totally the ‘living-end’ as all things go in the modern, it’s great in my mind and to many others I can bet! This is why I show up at this site, to hear others who would agree and speak about their systems too. It sometimes seems most others are hesitant to speak about their systems though. I find other sites speak freely of individual’s system set-ups. Maybe AR speaker pages here should stay simple and purely be all AR talk. I personally like it very much that way. It’ nice though, to hear about actual stuff that’s used out there, intimidating as it might be for me. Especially something like, ‘what drives your-ARs’ as a topic?

Have a happy ‘Memorial-Day’ holiday weekend; just don’t forget whom it’s for.

Frank Marsi

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Hi Frank;

Your write-up took my breath away.

I do and have owned several, AR, model XA turntables to be exact.

My very first one used to lay on top of my AR-3A, I didn't have a shelf for it.

I did have an occasional problem with it, but not a fault of the turntable design, but my home design.

My speakers were up close to, but, not against my center bearing living room wall.

When someone would walk past the system the cartridge would usually jump.

This was using a Stanton 681EE and A stylus, tracking at about 1 1/4 grams, if I remember correctly.

This was because my floors were flexing, causing a vibration that the turntable was never designed to be able to resist.

The other inner wall with my fireplace in it, was much more stable, but not a suitable location for it.

I have seen several AR ads that showed they were using a hammer and also installed on top of an AR-3 or 3A speaker.

I believe they had an issue and made a kit of parts available to owners, I have no further information on the issue or solution.

The earliest AR turntables were also a two motor table, one to start the running motor in the correct direction.

I did read about a Grado cartridge, model unknown, that had magnetic problems with the AR turntable motor, model unknown.

I don't think there are many wives who would understand us hauling in a few yards of sand to stabalize the floors. lol

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5-30-06

To Dynaco Dan and AR-Pro,

I know, I know, perhaps I was a bit harsh what with the wonderfully suspended system of this table and all. But let's look at ‘its’ terribly inadequate ‘damping’ control, mine wore-out in the first 3 months, strange with that little and thin foam washer that was installed at the factory. The plastic cartridge head was the first dead ‘give a way’ about its quality, it striped its plastic threads with-in 3 months at a second attempt at aligning the cartridge. Although I might had been too heavy handed in tightening the screws, but they used plastic with brass inserts that were never up to the task. Hell my AMT plastic car models circa 1961 to 63 had a better arrangement for fastening the under-body to the chassis. After that point I just got into chasing girls, no time for model car building anymore, I was happier with sex and girls. Huh oh, that must have been a major macho sexist heterosexual remark- no apologies though, must be the AR-3a, AR-LST, empowerment I’ve achieved after 34+ years of listening to them and everyone close to me knows that’s why I act the way I do, or at least that’s the reason I hope they think that way.

Oh sure I did try the old ‘bang the table test’, but only at extremely low volumes, it passed the test, but it was made for play-back, not banging tests. And the cartridge weight thing, oh sure I felt its simplicity was great with its single counter weight, (how many times did I drop and lose the plastic weights?), but setting it was always a hit or miss proposition to be honest about it. In actuality I ended up trying to stuff the tri-point chassis springs with more foam or removing the foam all together, didn’t help. Placing the entire table on 4 inches of foam rubber didn’t help either, nor was it ever level, so that didn’t work. I used my first ever Shure M3D, then an Empire ? then, a Empire EEE or something, but it was Empires’ top of the line in 1972-3. Then finally a Shure M91ED, that was a good cartridge, but still acoustic feedback was present no matter what changes I made.

Then one fateful day I couldn’t handle the problem anymore. I saved up and read about and went to see many turntables in practically every high-end store in Manhattan. Just a long haired kid from across the bay of Manhattan, with a musicianship and listener-ship attitude.

I was one of those guys who circled almost every ‘free-reader-service’ card in Stereo Review, High Fidelity, and Audio Magazine as I had all 3 on subscription, (received an enormous amount of mail, booklets, brochures, pamphlets, cards, catalogs, huge amounts of daily mail for about 7 years or more and read every last piece of it while listening and defecating, at times of course. Then I went out hunting, circa 1975. I knew exactly what I was looking for and what I wanted to see, hear, and handle. Sorry, or no, to all the other tables, but the Tannoy/Micro-Seiki 55 was a simple manual table that had all of the high build quality I was looking for and then some, and it did nothing but spin for a high price. Its included arm was beautiful. There was nothing ‘automatic’ about it, no return, no auto-start or shut-off, no nothing, just precision and great looks, period. Hell, I dropped around $475. for that table, it wasn’t discount by anyone and when I got it home, it was like nothing I had ever heard before. *(Although I imagine top-end tables today are awesome, that’s another story-time).

Sheer music emanated from my M91ED, no acoustic feed-back, no arm drifting, no unsure damping factor, no nothing, a virtual ‘table with gain’, clarity just like it should be. I thought; ‘Excellent!’, a ‘high-five to myself, if you could imagine? It even had ‘anti-skating’ ability, something that was a 1 year ago ‘new’ device on tables.

As time drifted on in my young life I took the plunge in ’76 and bought the Shure V15 Type 3, finally I was in hi-fi heaven. With my AR-3a’s , Phase Linear 4000 pre-amp and Phase Linear 400 amp, I had the best damn system in the neighborhood, maybe with-in a 20 square mile radius or more. I invited every one I knew to ‘”give a listen”, all were impressed. I myself, like a proud new father to what I had assembled, gushed at every session.

From this point on, whenever I walked in a stereo store to see what was new, I held my big head high. I spoke with a seasoned ‘listener’s authority’, I was if you will a “Luminati”, an ‘enlightened’ force of nature if you imagine, and only 27 years of age. I had AR and Phase Linear, which in 1974 to about 1980 was the best and most lusted after equipment for a middle class, struggling, ‘new in the business’ fashion photographer could ever ask for. When I set-up my first studio in 1978, dudes and dudettes came from all over to hear this almost uncommon stereo system, I played it during every job and all day and night long, every day. I must tell all of you guys that the main shooting room was a good size for shooting but a little difficult for listening as it measured 35 feet by 25 feet, with 12 foot ceilings in a 1896, 6 story brick and stone building, it was beautiful and one of the many old loft buildings with big spaces photographers rented for cheap back then. Actuality me and the other fotog I shared it with had a space of 5500 square feet for $795. per month for the whole floor, great, no? And I must admit some of the most beautiful women in the world of modeling had passed thru my doors to work with me, I’m not exaggerating about this either, I’ll elaborate another time. Mind you I had only 2 AR-3a’s mounted on those currently available 10inch collapsible floor stands that were offered back then and a single PL 400 amp, and of course with ‘Micro-Statics’ on top. The original tweeters were long dead, certainly by this time I had completely given up on AR’s tweeters as not being any good in terms of power handling and forgot about them, although I know they were there, but so dumbly under powered and helpless, and blown. Besides the ‘Micro-Static’s which sounded quite good for the money, and they looked great together with the 3a’s. I believe they were the same high-end drivers that the top of the line ‘Bozak’ speakers offered in their biggest and best models. Hey, com-on, Bozaks sounded great in the 60’s and early 70’s, at least their top end models did, huge cabinets, an old company by then with much experience.

After much juggling for the best location for the speakers, and contrary to the ‘best’ set up practices for acoustics, these 2-3a’s (my first from ’72) were placed almost mid-point on the long dimension of the room, 10 inches from the floor. Talk about room filling sound, please, get back and be quiet please, this system sounded great, I don’t care how incorrect the set-up was, it was pure pleasure with the ‘right’ recording, a vinyl LP of course, and these 3a’s sounded almost twice their size because of the big room. Life went on for about 5 years there and then I moved to a smaller space, listened to Advent vinyl clad speakers till the AR-LST’s came along, but that’s another story as it’s still being written and presently experienced at home at my leisure very night. Let me get back to it as the ‘System’ beckons me to sit down near it and be in stereo heaven. We’ll talk again, soon.

Frank Marsi

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Hi Frank;

Thank you for writing about your experiences with your AR turntable.

There must be others that experienced similar findings somewhere in this large world of ours.

With more than 1,500 members worldwide, time and exposure will, I am certain, bring forth other commentaries.

AR sold oodles and oodles of them over it's lifetime, and I am only referring to the XA version.

I used to dream about a Thorens TD-124, with a Shure SME arm and V15 type 2 cartridge.

To this day, I have never made any attempt to buy any of these pieces, nor do I plan on it.

The AR turntable was not, the end all, be all, of turntables.

It was just a real groundbreaker, with several unique design features and sold at an affordable price for the masses.

I just have to close my eyes and I remember one particular local dishonest salesman.

He didn't know I worked at the local AR warantee depot.

Each time I would be just cruising there, he would point out with a pen how cheap the turntable was, with a clock motor and rubber band from a drugstore. YEH.

He would attempt to sell me a Dual or Elac instead.

I wasn't there to make fun of him, he did it all by himself.

Thanks again, Frank, for your opinion.

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dynaco_dan Wed May-31-06 11:21 AM

Member since Jun 15th 2004

823 posts Click to add this author to your buddy list

#5. "RE: AR turntable 1"

In response to Reply # 4

(F.M.) Vern, I will answer as I can.

Hi Frank;

Hi Vern,

Thank you for writing about your experiences with your AR turntable.

(F.M.) I know I was some what harsh. But you must admit if you’ve ever looked into the pivot point of the main tone-arm bearing? That 1/4 inch X 1/16 inch tiny foam washer soaked with oil, that was really disappointing for me to see such out-right cheapness of construction by AR! The ‘anti-drift/skating’ mechanism was so un-predictable and weakly designed. The tracking force was so… un-certain at best.

There must be others that experienced similar findings somewhere in this large world of ours.

(F.M.) Oh sure I will bet there are. Thanks for being gentle about a ‘gentle’ turntable as it were.

I need direction, being 57 years old, I’ve grown stronger in my views after so much of life’s experiences, some times though, perhaps too cynical. I guess that’s life, at least I’m aware of it and that’s part of a check and balance system I have used through out my life.

With more than 1,500 members worldwide, time and exposure will, I am certain, bring forth other commentaries.

(F.M.) No doubt some will come forth, but I speak as honestly as any man could. I work for a living, I ‘m aware how I spent my money, then and now. I didn’t have such ill feelings about my purchase of an AR XA TT had I spent more than the $69 bucks I think it cost me brand sans cartridge in ’71. But I expected more quality from it. Hell the speakers were great, why not their TT?

AR sold oodles and oodles of them over it's lifetime, and I am only referring to the XA version.

I used to dream about a Thorens TD-124, with a Shure SME arm and V15 type 2 cartridge.

(F.M.) Hey, I myself still think about that beautiful SME tone-arm you refer too, I know which one, with that perforated cartridge shell and counter weights wires and all, it was great. The “Thorens-124”is still a table I’d like to have today.

To this day, I have never made any attempt to buy any of these pieces, nor do I plan on it.

(F.M.) Sure, if you can locate them Vern. But I’ve seen them offered on the web occasionally. Realistically speaking how many items of the vintage Hi-Fi world can I handle? I’m actually over-extended as it is.

The AR turntable was not, the end all, be all, of turntables.

(F.M.) It was for me at 22 years old at the time. I must admit I did my research on it, it got terrific write-ups, the price was attractive at least, and so was it’s manufacturer.

It was just a real groundbreaker, with several unique design features and sold at an affordable price for the masses.

(F.M.) You said it! But nonetheless I was saddened by its obvious frail nature, you must admit to me?

I just have to close my eyes and I remember one particular local dishonest salesman.

He didn't know I worked at the local AR warantee depot.

Each time I would be just cruising there, he would point out with a pen how cheap the turntable was, with a clock motor and rubber band from a drugstore. YEH.

He would attempt to sell me a Dual or Elac instead.

(F.M.) Forget the Duals or Elac’s, there were heavy looking and ‘dated’, not what I felt would take care of my precious records. I still have those records today in excellent condition because of the gentleness of the XA.

I wasn't there to make fun of him, he did it all by himself.

(F.M.) Should I read between the lines here? Oh nothing, just a thought.

Thanks again, Frank, for your opinion.

(F.M.) I know my fault here, at this point in life I’m very opinionated.

Have a good one.

Vern

(F.M.) In closing, yes the AR-Xa turntable was good and almost in a marketing way of speaking, great, but it did fall short of its mark in many areas where attention to detail and precision should have been more of a point of manufacture quality than the obvious concept of ‘quality- brand-name’ and low price offering bargain. It failed in that respect, although I have to admit, it must have looked good on paper and to the ‘bean-counters’ at AR. Think of it, AR did things the old fashioned way, they made things by hand, right down to the drivers. This country at the time was in a transitional changing mode in terms of manufacturing practices and its involvement in the world economy. Economically-geographically speaking the ‘North-East’ was dying because taxes and its still hanging – on attitude of the ‘industrial-revolution’ way of manufacturing practices. By this time all of the north-east shoe manufacturing had moved to Brazil virtually killing many small towns. AR in MA. was being victimized by America’s liberal trade practices, and that is as obvious as it is today. Once this country opened its doors to trade like it had never done before, we all suffered for it, as we all have to the present. So-much for ‘my’ liberal-generation’s ideas and concepts. It all failed just like the rock revolution did, John L. said it back then if you can recall?

We’ll all speak again, I’m sure, Frank Marsi

P.S. Have no fear Vern, I still have my original AR-xa here with me (in a box, un-used since ‘82), and some day I’ll clean it up, get a new and better arm and polish that old cover and try it out once more. I’ll send my report to you as soon as I get to ‘it’, but right now, I’m drowning in restoration work. 4- LST’s , 4- 3a’s , 4-2ax’s, 4 –PL400’s, 2 PL pre-amps, and loads of cables and interconnects do make a crazy man even more of one! Yes I brag here of my possessions, but I’m happy for myself just the same, who wouldn’t be? Is there any one out there who can give some advice? Just joking, I know what I have to do. And when I do, I promise to illustrate it on this site for more amusement about this hobby. I hope that’s alright with all?

FM

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Hi again Frank;

You are very expressive in your opinion, thank you, Frank.

In your original write-up you voiced your constant feedback problem very well.

My technical background for the last 40+ years does not allow me to agree or disagree with your problem, I only accept that you were aware of a problem.

You are the one that had the issue and I believe that you did have a problem, but the cause and affect is what is unique and puzzling.

You made your experiences known and did a few attempts to eliminate the problem.

Each reader has their own opinion after reading your original write-up about what they would or would not have done then, I am sure.

If you were now having the problem, we would all be offering our best advice to you, very likely all different and in a different sequence.

This would have been before you did any modifications, Frank.

I have been very fortunate in my self employed adult life, to have had a variety of pre-self-employment experiences, to assist me in working alone and doing my troubleshooting.

My mind is like a flowchart when I did troubleshooting with gas hot air, hot water heating systems or control systems.

I will use this as a very simple silly example, Frank.

You connect up your 100' garden hose to your outside house faucet and run the hose through a fence and hedges and around the neighbours car and under his van even.

You have a nozzle on one end, so you return to your home and turn on your water now.

You return to your car and start to spray your car, there is nothing coming out.

To find out where the hose may be kinked you would starting from one end visually follow the entire hose looking for 1 or more kinks.

You have to follow the entire hose because you cannot see all of it under the van and in the bushes.

I use the same methodology with controls and electical wiring.

When you turn on a light and it doesn't work, usually we flip the switch several more times and curse, right, it's a man's thing.

Next, we may usually turn the bulb to see if it's tight.

We again flip the switch a few more times and curse again.

About this time we guess that the darn bulb is burnt out and get a replacement.

I have made the assumption that this person lives alone and the lamp was not un-plugged. lol

If you were today, starting with a factory un-modified AR-XA turntable, write-up that you were having feedback problems, a wealth of ideas and suggestions would have come forward within 24 hours.

With each modification that you tried, and no improvements were noted, may have been like looking only at the more visible sections of the hose in the bushes.

To start with, the AR-XA turntable, in particular, is quite likely among the least prone turntable to acoustic feedback in the history of all turntables.

I am referring to a stock new XA turntable only.

I have the greatest hindsight imagineable, and I would, just in my case only, substitute another AR turntable.

Not having a spare, I would have first confirmed that I assembled the unit as per factory instructions, especially the cartridge polarity connections and mounted it on a stable location.

Before plugging in the phono cables, I would confirm that the system is quiet with no phono cables connected.

Check that the polarized AC outlet has a hot, neutral and ground, and is correct.

I mention this seemingly petty little detail, because of older aluminum house wiring and all the headaches that oxidation problems brings with it.

A house I came across, had no neutral wire connection for over 35 years.

At fist I thought that the homeowner was real cheap, with very low wattage light bulbs in their basement.

The bulbs were actually, 100 watt bulbs, I will make a later comment about this.

An associate had called me to see if I could assist him in troubleshooting various issues in that house.

The furnace needed a new transformer and sometimes it needed to be replaced several times a year.

In my experience most furnaces and boiler may only need one replacement in its lifetime.

The answering machines would not last too long as well.

Problems with the fridge.

Etc, etc etc.

I found by using logic, sometimes I like to use a techie word, lol, and my eyes, I found that the main neutral leadin cable into the old electrical panel, had not been stripped of its insulation before the screw was tightend down on the insulation, instead of the bare copper wire.

After I completed the connection the lights brightened right up to their full potential.

So after all this rattle, check your AC at your outlets, I have seen in the electrical departments of most every hardware store a $10.00 yellow electrical plug-in diagnostic polarity tester, you just plug it in and the lights tell you if your 110 - 120 volt outlet is wired correctly and safely.

You do not necessarily need a powerline conditioner, if you feel the need go ahead.

Next, I would be sure of the phono connections to the pre-amp, being sure that the outer shield makes positive contact with the phono connector.

If I remember correctly, the AR turntable is grounded electrically through one on the phono ground shields.

There again, with what we know now about ground loops and the hum/howl it can create.

Now that everyone is fast asleep. lol

I think I've rattled along enough for today, HEH?

My medications are affecting my thoughts too much now, soon I will not be able to write here, but I will just sit back and enjoy very much everyone elses write-ups.

>

>dynaco_dan Wed May-31-06 11:21 AM

>Member since Jun 15th 2004

>823 posts Click to add this author to your buddy list

>#5. "RE: AR turntable 1"

>In response to Reply # 4

>

>

>

>(F.M.) Vern, I will answer as I can.

>

>Hi Frank;

>Hi Vern,

>

>Thank you for writing about your experiences with your AR

>turntable.

>(F.M.) I know I was some what harsh. But you must admit if

>you’ve ever looked into the pivot point of the main tone-arm

>bearing? That 1/4 inch X 1/16 inch tiny foam washer soaked

>with oil, that was really disappointing for me to see such

>out-right cheapness of construction by AR! The

>‘anti-drift/skating’ mechanism was so un-predictable and

>weakly designed. The tracking force was so… un-certain at

>best.

>

>There must be others that experienced similar findings

>somewhere in this large world of ours.

>

>(F.M.) Oh sure I will bet there are. Thanks for being

>gentle about a ‘gentle’ turntable as it were.

>I need direction, being 57 years old, I’ve grown stronger in

>my views after so much of life’s experiences, some times

>though, perhaps too cynical. I guess that’s life, at least I’m

>aware of it and that’s part of a check and balance system I

>have used through out my life.

>

>With more than 1,500 members worldwide, time and exposure

>will, I am certain, bring forth other commentaries.

>

>(F.M.) No doubt some will come forth, but I speak as

>honestly as any man could. I work for a living, I ‘m aware how

>I spent my money, then and now. I didn’t have such ill

>feelings about my purchase of an AR XA TT had I spent more

>than the $69 bucks I think it cost me brand sans cartridge in

>’71. But I expected more quality from it. Hell the speakers

>were great, why not their TT?

>

>AR sold oodles and oodles of them over it's lifetime, and I am

>only referring to the XA version.

>

>I used to dream about a Thorens TD-124, with a Shure SME arm

>and V15 type 2 cartridge.

>

>(F.M.) Hey, I myself still think about that beautiful SME

>tone-arm you refer too, I know which one, with that perforated

>cartridge shell and counter weights wires and all, it was

>great. The “Thorens-124”is still a table I’d like to have

>today.

>

>

>To this day, I have never made any attempt to buy any of these

>pieces, nor do I plan on it.

>

>(F.M.) Sure, if you can locate them Vern. But I’ve seen them

>offered on the web occasionally. Realistically speaking how

>many items of the vintage Hi-Fi world can I handle? I’m

>actually over-extended as it is.

>

>The AR turntable was not, the end all, be all, of turntables.

>

>(F.M.) It was for me at 22 years old at the time. I must

>admit I did my research on it, it got terrific write-ups, the

>price was attractive at least, and so was it’s manufacturer.

>

>It was just a real groundbreaker, with several unique design

>features and sold at an affordable price for the masses.

>(F.M.) You said it! But nonetheless I was saddened by its

>obvious frail nature, you must admit to me?

>

>I just have to close my eyes and I remember one particular

>local dishonest salesman.

>

>He didn't know I worked at the local AR warantee depot.

>

>Each time I would be just cruising there, he would point out

>with a pen how cheap the turntable was, with a clock motor and

>rubber band from a drugstore. YEH.

>

>He would attempt to sell me a Dual or Elac instead.

>

>(F.M.) Forget the Duals or Elac’s, there were heavy looking

>and ‘dated’, not what I felt would take care of my precious

>records. I still have those records today in excellent

>condition because of the gentleness of the XA.

>

>I wasn't there to make fun of him, he did it all by himself.

>

>(F.M.) Should I read between the lines here? Oh nothing, just

>a thought.

>

>Thanks again, Frank, for your opinion.

>

>(F.M.) I know my fault here, at this point in life I’m very

>opinionated.

>

>Have a good one.

>

>Vern

>

>(F.M.) In closing, yes the AR-Xa turntable was good and

>almost in a marketing way of speaking, great, but it did fall

>short of its mark in many areas where attention to detail and

>precision should have been more of a point of manufacture

>quality than the obvious concept of ‘quality- brand-name’ and

>low price offering bargain. It failed in that respect,

>although I have to admit, it must have looked good on paper

>and to the ‘bean-counters’ at AR. Think of it, AR did things

>the old fashioned way, they made things by hand, right down to

>the drivers. This country at the time was in a transitional

>changing mode in terms of manufacturing practices and its

>involvement in the world economy. Economically-geographically

>speaking the ‘North-East’ was dying because taxes and its

>still hanging – on attitude of the ‘industrial-revolution’ way

>of manufacturing practices. By this time all of the north-east

>shoe manufacturing had moved to Brazil virtually killing many

>small towns. AR in MA. was being victimized by America’s

>liberal trade practices, and that is as obvious as it is

>today. Once this country opened its doors to trade like it had

>never done before, we all suffered for it, as we all have to

>the present. So-much for ‘my’ liberal-generation’s ideas and

>concepts. It all failed just like the rock revolution did,

>John L. said it back then if you can recall?

>We’ll all speak again, I’m sure, Frank Marsi

>P.S. Have no fear Vern, I still have my original AR-xa here

>with me (in a box, un-used since ‘82), and some day I’ll clean

>it up, get a new and better arm and polish that old cover and

>try it out once more. I’ll send my report to you as soon as I

>get to ‘it’, but right now, I’m drowning in restoration work.

>4- LST’s , 4- 3a’s , 4-2ax’s, 4 –PL400’s, 2 PL pre-amps, and

>loads of cables and interconnects do make a crazy man even

>more of one! Yes I brag here of my possessions, but I’m happy

>for myself just the same, who wouldn’t be? Is there any one

>out there who can give some advice? Just joking, I know what I

>have to do. And when I do, I promise to illustrate it on this

>site for more amusement about this hobby. I hope that’s

>alright with all?

>FM

>

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Guest denmarkdrivers

Frank what do you think of the dual 1229Q model ? I bought one for 45 bucks at the thrift shop, blows away my dual 1217 and dual 506, not sure how it comapred to AR turntables but the platter is heavy .... parascope for speed stobe, studs for strobe on inside of platter not outside like many other models ..... I was told the Q means it can hold big boy cartriages.

I have one problem with it, the speed seems a little slow....

The pich controll is a little little above normal to achieve a normal speed.

I was told this is not a belt driven table but rather a rubber wheel direct drive, not that it matters to me much i just like the way it sounds

I'm wondering if that wheel is what drives it or is it belt driven ?

Would getting that rubber wheel replaced fix the pitch controll ? I can get normal speed by setting pitch above normal..... i'm more thinking of the future in case i needs replacement someday.

Belt driven or rubber wheel ?

I was told it was a rubber wheel on the inside of platter that can wear down, again i was only told this in a chat room, is it true ?

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Hi there;

I have never seen your particular model of Dual.

Does your turntable have a built-in strobe with neon light?

It has been a long time since I serviced the outstanding quality original Dual 1009 and 1019 turntables and similarly aged turntables.

If I remember right, the motor has a stepped pulley, similar in profile to the excellent stepped drill bits we have today.

The pullies I am thinking of were tapered, almost invisible, very slightly on each speed step.

We would loosen off the setscrew, and raise or lower the pulley, ever so slightly, to give the slightest speed change adjustment.

You do need a strobe and neon light to verify the speed.

Also you should have an LP record, dustbug, if you have one, and the cartridge adjusted and tracking at the correct tracking force and anti-skating set on the record to be certain of the correct operating speed.

If you have a rubber idler wheel, Rubber Re-nue, rubbed on the outer perimter will soften the surface and give a better grip on the platter.

Hope this helps.

Good luck.

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  • 1 year later...

I have been using an XA for awhile now and do not seem to have any problems. Maybe bad hearing or a lousy system. Even using a Grado Blue stylus and I don't hear any of the renowned Grado hum I read about everywhere. Maybe I need to get my ears checked.

Anyway, has anyone checked out the Vinyl Nirvana forum http://www.vinylnirvana.com/index.shtml. Lots of info on AR turntables including various mods to improve and/or upgrade them.

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I've had lots and lots of turntables. One of the most infuriating things for me right now is that somewhere in my house in one of hundreds of unopened boxes from my last move in 2000 is a perfectly operating AR turntable which I bought for one dollar at a church rummage sale and although I've looked high and low for it, I can't find it. (I have the head shell in a drawer but I will need to modify it or replace it since the plastic molded threaded nuts are broken. I might just grind them down and epoxy in some cartridge nuts but alignment might requrire a little shimming. When I called AR/Recoton about a replacement in the 1990s they wanted $25, I said screw that.

The AR is a very good turntable, especially for the money in light of what was availabe at that time. It struck me that the turntable itself was a knockoff of the Thorens design but at a much lower price. I saw the hammer blow demonstration at a trade show and it really worked. I think even the best manufacturers have a few defective production units which make it through quality control and get out into the market, each with its own quirky defects. In AR's case, there was only one but it had a humongous number of defects, they were all concentrated in one ultra super lemon. Congratulation Frank, you got it. Sorry but Frank, just think, you beat the law of averages by a mile. :-)

For me the king of turntables is and always has been Empire. I have a 398 and a 698 and like my AR9s they are among my most prized possessions even though I rarely ever listen to records anymore. They are manufactured to a level of precision few if any turntables at any price could hope to match and they have features no others I've seen have. For example, the main journal bearings supporting the individually balanced 6 pound cast aluminum platter on the 398 and the 8 pound cast aluminum platter on the 698 are individually matched and machined to within 1/100,000" tolerance of spec. It results in a guaranteed unweighted (worst case) rumble of -90 db. I don't know of another turntable that comes even close. The tone arm is dynamically balanced which means there is equal mass on each side of the pivot point. Tracking pressure is applied by a long clock mainspring. Lateral antiskating force is applied with a small weight tethered on a nylon thread I think just like the SME. In fact it was a Thorens/SME salesman at a trade show who convinced me to buy the first Empire in preference to his own product. That seemed strange. The Empire turntables are also built to last forever and are IMO beautiful to look at. The metal parts are all gold plated. The 398 does not have a suspension or dust cover but the 698 stole the AR suspension design and has a teak dust cover with glass to match the teak base. It also has a sleeker look, much of the main platter is below the top of the machined aluminmum plate motorboard. Both have powerful high torque hysteresis synchronous motors which start the platter quickly and it exceeds all NAB broadcast standards. However, during their heyday, radio staions for some reason usually preferred Rek-O-Cut which are also fine turntables. (maybe they were cheaper.) I think the Thorens are excellent products and so are the SME arms. They may also be dynamically balanced. I successfully tracked my 999VE cartridge in the 398 arm at 1/4 gram without distortion on some recordings but I usually set it at around 3/4 grams. I also successfully tracked the Shure Audio Obstacle Course record with the Shure V15 Type II improved at 3/4 gram in it. Too bad my maids destroyed the stylus on the 999VE on their first visit wiping it clean off (I don't even leave a cartridge in that arm when I know they are coming.) I've got a slew of cartridges too, my usual favorite being the Shure V15 type V MR but the Empire 4000 DIII and 999 TE/X are very good too. I also liked the M91 ED which John Curl said was a dog. (He said it had miserable slewing rate, the worst he ever measured and I told him he was full of it. I trust Shure's tracking and FR specifications far more than his claims.) I was never a fan of moving coil cartridges, their heavy tracking force requirements and very low output the result of high dynamic mass, low compliance, and relatively few coil turns (the stylus has to move the coil instead of a much lighter magnet) was a serious disadvantage as was the usual high frequency peak. (The settings on the Bose 901 equlizer suggested in one of the magazine reviews was for a treble cut when using Ortofon cartridges.) Curl said they had extended response well beyond 20khz but if they did it was useless, pressure from their high tracking force probably wiping out that part of the plastic record quickly. Anyway, they were never recommended for RCA CD4 discs which had outband signals to 40 khz. (This is why the Shibata-like polyhedral stylus configurations were created, Empire and B&O being the main CD4 cartridge suppliers. Shure went the other way with a micro-ridge design not recommended for CD4 discs.) BTW Frank, I hope you adjusted the suspension spring tension properly and made sure the subchassis floated freely in your AR turntable before you gave up on it.

I've never had good luck with rim driven turntables, their intermediate idler wheels always were a source of problems. I've got a Dual 1237 and it works very well. It's got a low mass arm and it is belt driven. I've had a bunch of idler/rim driven models including a Miracord 50H, a Garrard, a couple of Glazier Steers, even a Bogen. I liked the Miracord even with its high mass arm but it developed an electrical problem with its motor and it is unrepairable. Most regrettable turntable mistake I ever made (I was young) was buying the Weathers Townshend which was inside rim driven directly with a small rubber wheel on the motor shaft. It had a fancy flat wooden arm and a miniature hysteresis motor but was not very good and the motor was not well shielded. I should have bought the AR for a few dollars more. I had good luck with a direct drive Sanyo which still works very well and with a direct drive Akai until it developed an electrical problem in its speed control circuit board. I've got around 3000 records but as I said, I rarely listen to them, I much prefer cds.

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Hi -

I have owned about 3 AR XA and 2 or 3 XB turntables, and I have never had an accoustical feedback problem with any of them. In fact, I have always been amazed at how totally silent they are. On one of the XA units I had a problem with the clocking motor. The bearing had gone bad and was causing noise in the pickup, so I disconnected the wiring and the belt to it. After that, all noise was eliminated...of course I had to spin the table clockwise before throwing the power switch on, but that was no big deal.

The only problems that I know about concerning them are the older XA models with the delrin bearing that shrinks up, and of course those headshell threads. Back then a new headshell was only a buck or two, but now they might as well be made out of gold.

I have a Thorens TD-125II that weighs about 30lbs and was quite expensive, and as far as rumble is concerned there is no difference between it and the XA or XB. The Thorens suspension seems to be very similar to the AR's (or should that be the other way around?) and both are just about impervious to any outside vibration other than structural movement such as floor joists wobbling. Properly placed on a wall shelf, the XA/XB can't be beat for the money. I've strobed all of the ones that I have come across, and the speed is dead on accurate. The Thorens is dead on accurate, too, but it's done with lots of electronics and needs to be trimmed up after an hour or so of playing. The XA/XB is just a very simple effective design that was affordable to everyone at a time when a good turntable was crucial to a decent audio system. It would be interesting to find out what was going on with that particular turntable, but it sounds like Frank has plenty else to do before digging that one out of storage!

Matt

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>I have been using an XA for awhile now and do not seem to

>have any problems. Maybe bad hearing or a lousy system. Even

>using a Grado Blue stylus and I don't hear any of the renowned

>Grado hum I read about everywhere. Maybe I need to get my

>ears checked.

Hi James;

I do remember one or two very early Grado's that had a hum problem with AR turntables.

BTR may have been the series or not.

It may have been with the two motor version AR turntables though.

I do not remember the cause or cure, if there was one.

I did read on another site about the severing of tonearnm wires at the rear of the tonearm.

This could lead to dropout or intermittant dropout or hum.

AR did come out with a modification to their suspension system after a while.

I do not remember any of these details at this time.

I started buying AR turntable spare parts, that I thought would fail or break, from the very beginning, with my first AR-XA.

To this day, I have never replaced any parts, not even a belt.

I'll be ebaying my surplus parts with the thought of gross sales to a children's charity of my choice, something close to my heart.

It may have been the rear cover of the turntable manual that had a list of AR literature they would send you for free.

That was where the AR speaker wood re-finishing sheet came from.

They would even send you a modified cartridge shell for free, for the Stanton with a brush, I believe, cartridge.

They ground down the front face of the cartridge shell to just clear the brush.

They also would send you a heavier counterweight for one or two different cartridges, at no charge.

The AR turntable still brings a smile to my face after all these many years.

I stroke mine almost daily, along with the gifted A-25.

Sadly, I did not forsee the cartridge shell being, "gold", this many years later.

Also I bought only one spare plexi-top for a walnut base that I had made and mounted my dad's Dual 1019 in.

I just saw the same top a few weeks ago, cracked and not like I remember.

If anyone else develops an AR turntable problem, please write about it before tinkering, please.

There was a member here that had posted an AR turntable problem and just disappeared, without resolution.

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10-3-07

O.K. , O.K. Maybe it's not me this guy Frank that is mentioned here regarding AR

turntable problems. Look I must attest, it was my second TT after an entry level Garrard model 40. For $69 bucks in 1972 I was thrilled until I wanted a little more bass level and that's when all hell broke loose. I started with Shure M55, then an Empire 999e, lastly a Shure M91ED. Yes I will admit the table sure looked good and attractive and neat, better than the money it cost. First the acoustic feed-back problem, then the continual problem with the damping set-up, then the head shell problem with the brass insets popping out from the plastic molded socket, boy one problem after another! AR didn't believe me, friends thought I was just plain-out

weird because I had the best stereo out of all of our group and here I was complaining.

Yeah they didn't know what I meant until they asked me to turn it up and they heard my AR-3a woofers starting to push the grill cloth out and like a wind-machine thump'in away at it, and then that horrible 'howling' noise. All along I was always eye-balling those Empire golden tables, beautiful , just beautiful, but too expensive for my pocket.

After the constant tweeter problems I had with AR, they didn't respond to my TT issues at all, other than an initial response from them. I dealt with these problems for 2 or more years- sad wasn't it?

I tried everything, but to no avail.

Then I spotted my still in captivity around 1974, Micro-Seiki TM55, direct drive TT and all my acoustic feed-back problems went away. Yes finally I could turn up the bass controls a little more on my Dyna PAS-3X with having to run back to it to lower the volume.

I went months later a purchased a Shure V15 Type 3 and I was happier than a pig in poop!

I remain even today with the Micro table and that same Shure with a new stylus.

Again, no insult towards anyone on this site regarding the AR T.T., but it didn't work that well for me. I will say I still feel it's a great looking table, if only there were some actual 'mods' like a better arm, etc. Irony is people could say bad things against direct-drive same as I speak against the AR table. It's all about the blending of components, situations and preferences.It very well may have been the lemon mentioned.

Frank Marsi, some body out likes me?

P.S. maybe some day I'll resurrect that sweet table, deal with the broken plastic dust-cover, install a new belt, the horribly changed table surface texture, install a different arm, replace the foam in the springs, and then......?

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I'm really sorry you had all of these problems with your TT. I'm not surprised you were frustrated and angry, especially when you seemed to get no response from AR. KLH was very different. I've related elsewhere how they paid one way shipping and repaired my second hand KLH model 6 for free. Even Bose offered to give me a trade in on my 1970 901s for a new pair at half price in 2004. Of course I had horrible service from Sony whenever I've had to deal with them. Perhaps AR's cavalier attitude towards their customers' problems with their products is one reason their popularity declined over the years. They certainly went through some hard times.

The AR turntable has inherent in its design, outstanding immunity from acoustic feedback like no other turntable I'd seen before it. Its suspension was so ingenious others like Empire copied it. By mounting the arm, motor and platter on a sub chassis hung by suspended spring from the main deck plate, the isolation was remarkable. That's why this particular problem is so hard to understand. Obviously something was very wrong with this unit which somehow mechanically coupled it all together. You'd think AR would be curious themselves to know why. If I'd been a service manager there, I'd have at least given advice over the phone on what to look for and offered to pay for fixing it if it was a factory defect even if it was out of warrantee. Was it purchased new? Did you take it back to the dealer? Was there an AR factory service center near you? Did you buy it off the street from a guy who had it hidden under his coat with a bunch of fake Rolex watches? Well, that's life. BTW, many people removed the arm and replaced it with others such as SME or Thorens arms. There was also a cueing device which you could retrofit to a turntable like AR by drilling just one hole. It was a simple affair and cost around $15. That was popular too. Like I said, I think you got their one superlemon.

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Hi Frank;

AR should have had you ship it to their local repair depot or factory with your feedback problem.

Every month or so I have dinner with the former service manager of the local AR warantee depot that I worked at for a few years back in the early '70's.

He has confirmed that, AR, was by far the most generous of manufacturers, and there were over 12 warantee lines being serviced, in providing technical support, parts support and packaging components.

Dynaco ran a close second.

If, right out of the box it had feedback, there was a warantee claim.

How you presented this to them and how they interpreted the data, may have been a problem.

Honey always works better than vinegar, I find.

If we all could go back in time, to when you cracked open the box for the first time, drool, drool.

It is possible that some area of the turntable may not have been correctly assembled.

There is always a chance of a factory assembly error.

As I have mentioned previously, there was some sort of suspension change or modification, model's and date unknown.

Have you ever seen an AR turntable parts list, Frank?

If you have all of the original AR parts, unless foam pieces have deteriorated, maybe we can troubleshoot yours, in particular.

There is adjustments to the spring level.

I've had the AR plastic molded heads and the plastic heads with the brass thread inserts.

I guess I am a very gentle person with small tools and small hardware.

No smart cracks, please.

I never stripped a plastic only version or pulled out either of the brass inserts.

Using their provided screwdriver did not allow an excess of leverage.

It is easy for me to say tighten the screw until it's just so tight, but, oops, too tight, so sorry.

A larger screwdriver is too large for that type of instalation, too much mechanical advantage.

This is an issue I would like to work on, Frank, if you have the time and patience to work with us.

As a side note, I still remember receiving an AR turntable for warantee work.

I do not remember the problem specified in our paperwork.

The turntable arrived in the original AR turntable carton.

All the packing pieces were not installed as per their drawing.

In fact they were left out of the carton, totaly.

The platter, was left on the turntable, had slid back and forth at least once, unprotected, shearing off the motor pulley and motor shaft, clean as a whistle.

I don't remember any other outstanding damage, that was sufficient.

I don't know how many of you AR turntable owner's still have the original AR turntable cartons and all of the cardboard packing pieces.

Certainly a lot of thought went into packaging them for safe shipment, worldwide.

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Hi soundminded;

>I've had lots and lots of turntables. One of the most

>infuriating things for me right now is that somewhere in my

>house in one of

hundreds of unopened boxes from my last move

I don't feel so bad now about my many, many unopened boxes and unfound treasures.

Sadly, I do not have an AR turntable waiting to be re-discovered.

>in 2000 is a perfectly operating AR turntable which I bought

>for one dollar at a church rummage sale and although I've

>looked high and low for it, I can't find it. (I have the head

>shell in a drawer but I will need to modify it or replace it

>since the plastic molded threaded nuts are broken. I might

>just grind them down and epoxy in some cartridge nuts but

>alignment might requrire a little shimming. When I called

>AR/Recoton about a replacement in the 1990s they wanted $25, I

>said screw that.

I certainly cannot top the price you paid for yours, that is for sure.

If you still have the brass inserts, I would suggest epoxying them back into the cartridge shell again.

If you have the plastic only head, perhaps if you can find, Nut-serts, they may be in the correct sizes, available at older surplus electronic stores, perhaps.

You won't alter the balance too much.

I have a few photos of modified cartridge shells that I'll post.

I went to find them and they seem to have gone to the Never Never Land holding area, wherever that may be.

One was a photo of an ebay auction of an unusual AR modified cartridge shell.

It was almost unrecognizable but kinda neat looking.

It may also have been weakened by too much material removeal.

>

>The AR is a very good turntable, especially for the money in

>light of what was availabe at that time. It struck me that

>the turntable itself was a knockoff of the Thorens design but

>at a much lower price. I saw the hammer blow demonstration at

>a trade show and it really worked. I think even the best

>manufacturers have a few defective production units which make

>it through quality control and get out into the market, each

>with its own quirky defects.

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Hi again;

Here is the photo of a modified AR turntable cartridge head shell.

As you can hardly see, kinda dark, there is a lot of material missing from the original body.

It would definitely lighten the body mass.

With the higher than desired friction of the pivot mounts, I feel that the modifier has created more of a problem, than solving.

The turntable was never meant to track at 1/8 - 1/2 gram.

Even with the tracking force in the realm of under 1 gram, is pushing the trackability to it's extreme.

Cartridges with a front brush will have a slight tracking advantage.

If you want to increase the shell holder end's weight, beyond any further brass counterweight adjustment, just glue one or two copper pennies under the shell holder head.

It must be a non-magnetic metal.

If you only have silver dollars, please send them to me and I will mail you a few pennies in exchange. LOL

If I was to have suggested one modification to the shell holder, that would have been to increase the radius of the finger lift, to make the end slightly higher.

I always had to be very careful when trying to get my finger under the lifter, when on a record.

Would I attempt to modify one as in the photo, not much chance.

With them being worth more than their weight in gold, I think not.

If you have a spare or damaged one, then go ahead and please let us see what you came up with.

post-101040-1191546625.jpg

post-3-1191546625.jpg

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Guest matty g

Vern -

Thanks for posting that picture. Someone went to a lot of trouble to do that... must have had a pretty steady hand. It probably doesn't do much for the table, though. The M91ED on there tracks at about 1.5 grams, and the headshell mass probably won't have much effect on it after it's rebalanced. Pretty neat, though.

If someone with a basement or garage machine shop found a way to manufacture headshells for those tables they could make a fortune. I've often wondered if the standard S arm headshells could somehow be altered to fit the AR arm. It would probably have to be the all plastic type if it could even be done.

Matt

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Hi Matt;

I have not heard of any other existing cartridge shell's that will fit the threaded portion of the AR turntable, and match the pin for pin contacts, yet.

It certainly would be neat if, say a Pioneer shellholder fit the bill.

I picked up 5 or 6 for $.50 each a year or so ago for my Pioneer turntables.

I was certain that I had a better view of that shell but I cannot find it now, at least.

That auction is long gone, I believe.

As I remember, there was an AR modified headshell available, AR had the front ground at about a 45 degree angle, to miss the Stanton brush.

AR had this available, at no charge upon request, to all AR turntable owners.

For those with a really heavy cartridge, AR again at no charge, provided a heavier than stock issue, brass counterweight.

AR was very, very generous with their total customer support.

This was years prior to my working at the local AR warantee depot, as well.

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