Sacriledge. AR93Q

[Jab]

"SACRILEGE!", is what aficionados will accuse of asking this question.    First though, please consider the situation.  I have inherited a set of what were once a beautiful set of AR93Q loudspeakers.   After 30 years of sitting in a vacation home, being used for two weeks every year, I am sure enough the original voice coils have been scraped up enough against the magnet pole piece that I do not want to do a proper re-surround procedure.   See pic.    Re-foaming doesn't scare me, but I would prefer an option, so here is the question....

Where would I find the original specs for all three drivers?  Particularly resonant frequency and compliance.   Yes, you know what I am considering!   Finding modern drivers which somewhat match the originals characteristics, then perhaps tweaking the crossover.   And for more sacriledge.....doing a new finish on the cabinets and replacing the tube-sock grill with separate removable grills.  

OK, get it over with, throw your rotten fruit and throw me out of the church!   😉

Now that I'm outside in the gutter with the other sinners, seriously, my hearing is not as acute as I once thought it was, and I kind of think this would be a nice project and a sort of tribute to AR and the equipment manufacturers who moved audio ahead through those decades.   

Tangentially related, these AR's are powered by a Sony F555 amp.   Specs look niiiiice, good enough to be a keeper.

Thanks All,

J

 

[AR55]

I have restored a number of AR speakers and there has only been a couple of times that the woofer’s voice coil and/or suspension was damaged due to the previous owner playing them with rotted surrounds.  If the 8” midrange’s & woofer’s resistance measures between 8 & 9 ohms and the spider is still flat with its connection to the woofer cone intact, they may be fine.  If you decide to replace the surrounds, make sure that they are appropriate for AR woofers.  Most aftermarket surrounds are too stiff.  I got mine from Rick Cobb Speaker Parts, LLC (eBay site - looneytune2001). 

The 1¼” cone tweeters look fine.  If their resistance measures between 4.3 & 5.2 ohms, consider not replacing them until you have listened to them with the restored woofers installed.

The specs for the AR93’s drivers (8” woofer – 200035, 8” midrange – 200036 & 1¼” cone tweeter – 200034/200038) are attached.  Also attached is some research on AR 8” woofers/midranges & AR 1¼” tweeters.

Lastly, if the grilles are in bad shape. Replace them.  I have replaced the grille cloth/foam and refinished most of the speakers that I have restored.

AR93 Driver Specs.pdfAR 8-inch Woofer-Midrange Research.pdfAR 1.25-inch Tweeter Research.pdf

[Jab]

Wow.....  AR55, this is a wonderful comment.  Spot on.  You may be correct in the assessment of the probable voice coil damage, but I kind of like the idea of dropping in a couple of Dayton Audio drivers, or something like that just to see. 

Keep the tweeters around for the first interpolation?   Yes, good idea.   The high end sounds pretty nice as is.

Your suggestion to keep the stock grill cloth, on reflection yes.   It makes sense.  Thanks for reeling in a little scope creep there.

Lastly, thank you especially for the driver response curves and test conditions.   I don't want to bastardize them too much.  

 

[genek]

If what you want is to skip the work and potential screwing up of drivers if you do it wrong, I'd just order some of the "AR replacement" drivers being offered by Simply Speakers. A halfway decent 8" woofer from Parts Express is only going to be $20 or so cheaper, and while the SS replacements won't be exactly "right," they'll likely be closer than anything you'll find after spending hours comparing no-name drivers to the old AR specs.

[Jab]

Not a bad idea at all!   Can "Simply Speakers" be relied upon to have done the work to ensure the replacements are close?   If so, yessir, great idea.  All I need is my screwdriver!  😁

[Jab]

Hmmm.....   AR is not listed as a manufacturer at Simply Speakers.  But I do not know who bought out AR, and suspect that they are indeed listed, as the list looks pretty comprehensive.   Searching for AR93Q, and various things did not produce joy.  

So to my question:  who was smart enough to buy out AR?   😉

Thanks in advance.

 

[RoyC]

"The 1¼” cone tweeters look fine.  If their resistance measures between 4.3 & 5.2 ohms, consider not replacing them until you have listened to them with the restored woofers installed."  I agree with this statement made by AR55 above. Voice coils don't wear out with age.

When AB Tech (AR's authorized repair service) went out of business, Ebay's "Vintage_AR"/Larry Lagace (for whom I do much work) ended up with the last of AB Tech's inventory...but those parts are long gone. Even those last replacement woofers, however, were not a match for the original.

If you decide to go down the rabbit hole, I would be happy to take those old worn out woofers off you hands.

Roy

[genek]

The new "replacements" are probably made in China by Shenzhen, Ningbo or Lingyin, three companies that make the majority of Chinese OEM drivers. They won't be "right," but will be as close to spec as anything you're likely to find at Parts Express (probably because they make most of those, too).

If it was me, I'd start by looking to see if there's anyone local who does refoaming. My last time was when I refurbished my AR-3a's, and the cost to have someone do the job for me amounted to two or three hours of my income at the time for both woofers, including the parts. 

[Jab]

Thanks genek.   Yea, will pass on Chinese.     I may end up refoaming as plan B.   But I'm in central Italy, so just finding a specialty shop is an impediment.    https://www.simplyspeakers.com/acoustic-research-speaker-foam-edge-repair-kit-fsk-8.html

Plan A is I did find a couple of drivers I can get here through an Italian Dayton Audio distributor, which will make them a totally different beast, but really all I want to use is a boxcutter and screwdriver and see what we get.

Of many choices, I'm leaning this way:

Woofers:   https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/25/dc200-8-8-classic-woofer-8-ohm

Midrange: https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1152/pm220-8-8-neo-wideband-midbass-driver

Don't ask me why.    There's a lot on my plate for some weeks to come, and I just want to do an easy fix, even though fidelity will change.   The one benefit of having some hearing loss.  😉

[genek]

The problem with this approach is that what you're going to lose is bass performance, and hearing loss is mostly in the upper frequencies.

[Jab]

Duly noted, but this is one of those cases where perfect is the enemy of good enough.  Upper bass and mids even with some dips and peaks.  Which I may tune a bit if it's intolerable.    Worst case, if it is truly intolerable, I go speaker shopping.

 

[Jab]

RoyC,

If the transplant works OK, pre-pay shipping and packing and these are yours.    Four woofs and two mids.   Not the rear seals, only the speakers.  I pulled this one out and 360 degrees of nothing.  

I'm thinking the Dayton Audio replacements would likely be better, perhaps a lot better..    Re-building these, with 30 years of drying?  The cone mass and stiffness would not have any semblance to the original, or maintain an original sound.    Whatever the original sound, it is lost to time.        

Really what I have here are two solid boxes.   Will build on that.   Will pull the damping material out, measure, and go from there.....

 

[RoyC]

5 hours ago, Jab said:

I'm thinking the Dayton Audio replacements would likely be better, perhaps a lot better..    Re-building these, with 30 years of drying?  The cone mass and stiffness would not have any semblance to the original, or maintain an original sound.    Whatever the original sound, it is lost to time.       

In my opinion, your assumption could not be less true, Jab. What do you think dried out causing the original sound to be "lost to time", not having any "semblance to the original"? A competent re-foam job will bring them extremely close to original spec, and new woofers will not. Keep in mind that the crossover and tweeter must be compatible with any woofer you choose. Obviously, it is much easier to simply screw in new woofers, but you asked for an opinion.

BTW, Dayton and Simply Speakers (and most other typical replacement drivers used to fill old cabinet holes) are all made in China, if that really is of concern to you.

Roy

PS I didn't know you were in Italy. 🙄

[Jab]

I take your points.   I was referring to changes in cone mass.   These just feel very brittle, as if they had lost moisture content, or some other outgassing or changes in paper chemistry had occurred.   Also, these did not seem to be high quality speakers, hence my comment the Daytons might be better.    And so, I removed them and found a clue......it appears they may already have been replaced by a company called Digital Perugia.     The frames seem a bit thin, but perhaps they were par for the course back in the day.   

So, Dayton Audio is just about like the Pittsburgh and Chicago brands at Harbor Freight?  😉    I may have to be realistic and give up on domestically manufactured speakers.  

Given the photo's, do you have any opinion if these were indeed AR replacement drivers, or would you say some substitute?   The picture of the three of them has the midrange in the middle.  

Thanks for the assessments.

 

[Aadams]

If all have this tag (below) they are unlikely to be anything other than AR.

[Jab]

Thank You Aadams.   So, the implication would be if they were replaced, it was with AR replacements.....whatever that means through time.   So, whoever was in control of the AR stickers decides what they mean.    

Any pics of old, old AR stickers and what they were stuck on to would help.

This is a mystery trail.... kind of fun.   The penned in R/L, "M-ish"/R. and R/R are interesting.  I wonder who penned them. So my guess is the first line is part number, the second line is 561? (mystery to me) and date code from the day, which was YYWW, Year and week of year, so these were made in 1980 right before Christmas.    Then, good old MADE IN USA!  

Made in USA or not, I think these speakers are nothing particularly special.   The cabs are solid, worth an upgraded set of drivers if a suitable match can be found.  

[Aadams]

51 minutes ago, Jab said:

So, the implication would be if they were replaced, it was with AR replacements...

I do not have 8 inch ARs from that period but all the replacements I have seen say " Service Replacement" on a very similar the sticker.  I thought yours might be service replacements when I first saw your photo. Yours are probably original, but bearing a service mark from the company that refoamed them.  Assuming all your voice coils are good, you will spend several hundred Euros to have better speakers than if you merely refoamed those originals.   Otherwise they are marketable as is in Italy, which had a large AR following.

[genek]

You're wrong about them being "nothing special," because today there are virtually no new drivers being sold with suitable resonant frequencies for use in acoustic suspension speakers. You will definitely not find any that are upgrades or that will be less expensive than having the originals rebuilt. Why do you think there are so many people refoaming, reconing and even rewinding the voice coils of old ones? It's because what you seem determined to do has already been attempted many, many times, with no success. 

If you really don't want to do it right, just sell them as-is and buy something new. You'll get better sound and make someone else who's looking to restore some vintage ARs happy for the opportunity.

 

 

[Jab]

A very interesting localized reply.  Thank You.

Money is not the issue here.   I just want advice for a good replacement which involves merely a #2 Philips and possibly wire strippers.  😉  My thought is AR's cabinets are solid, and they used the best drivers of the day.  I am interested in "very good" (not perfect) drivers of today. 

[genek]

If you install new drivers, the only way you'll ever get even halfway decent bass response will be to give up trying to match the originals' resonant frequency specs and modify the cabinets so their volumes meet the requirements of the new drivers. You'll likely also need to bore a port into the back, because your new drivers will almost certainly have been designed for use in bass-reflex speakers.  Look for better drivers that come with suggestions for cabinet volumes and port sizes; it's unlikely that anybody here will be able to help with that.

You'll also need to change the crossover, because the old crossover's bass-mid turnover frequency will probably be wrong for the new drivers.

 

 

[Aadams]

23 minutes ago, Jab said:

Money is not the issue here.   I just want advice for a good replacement which involves merely a #2 Philips and possibly wire strippers

This might work.  Try the link below.  Maybe the only 8inch for sealed enclosures still being manufactured.  

https://www.humanspeakers.com/e/parts/001.htm

[genek]

Wonder how much to ship four of them to Italy.

If money really isn't the issue, why not just pack the originals up and ship them to wherever they'd need to go for a proper refoam job? No tools needed except a screwdriver and box cutter. 

[RoyC]

3 hours ago, Jab said:

This is a mystery trail.... kind of fun.  

Made in USA or not, I think these speakers are nothing particularly special.   The cabs are solid, worth an upgraded set of drivers if a suitable match can be found.  

There is no mystery to be solved. Jab.

-The AR labels with the red dots, were placed on the side of the + terminal.

-561 is the manufacturer's code, and is found on all AR drivers beginning sometime in the 70's.

-The AR-94 and 93 series had a number of variations (thus the "Q" designation of your specimens). Some versions used slightly different woofers in different parts of the cabinet. Based on your photos, your woofers are all original equipment. The person who placed handwritten notations on the labels wisely designated where they needed to be reinstalled in the cabinets.

-Forum posts and Library will provide informative reading.

-Your suppositions regarding the effects of "time" and construction are erroneous.

Genek's suggestion is the best advice you will receive, imo.

Roy

[JKent]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:43 AM, Jab said:

"SACRILEGE!", is what aficionados will accuse

On 4/16/2023 at 6:43 AM, Jab said:

Re-foaming doesn't scare me

On 4/16/2023 at 6:43 AM, Jab said:

I kind of think this would be a nice project and a sort of tribute to AR

If you're fine with re-foaming them yourself, do it and restore them. Putting in some random after-market drivers will not be any kind of "tribute" because it will bastardize what were once great speakers.

OTOH, I hear you saying you really don't want the work of refoaming 4 drivers. Maybe a couple of our Italian members will suggest someplace to get that work done in Italy or somewhere else in Europe.

You've had input from the top experts on this forum. Roy literally wrote the book on AR restoration (see "Restoring the AR-3a" if you haven't already), Aadams is one of the most experienced guys here. Gene is the moderator. You should take their advice seriously.

[genek]

Being the moderator here doesn't make me a "top expert." Mostly, it just means that I know who to ask for advice.