frankmarsi Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 3-7-06 Subject: “A/C surge protectors, A/C power filters”To all members and those who typically respond to me, Vern, Pete B. and respects to all!Dear Vern, 'go-on' tell me those stories, will ya, I have tons of stories myself and I value yours! When I said 3/4 volume settings I was exaggerating, it's really about 2/3 of usable power before I blow everything up in a fireball of destruction and chaos, speakers, amps, my mind, then sadness and regret will take over. The volume control on my PL4000 preamp is at about 10 or 11 o'clock position, and the PL400 amps might be going to the almost zero db. level on peaks. Those levels are enough to blow 1-1/4 to a 3 amp fast blow fuse on a AR-3a easily, but not on an LST as the LST can 'eat' loads of power as most owners would attest to. Most any layman would run for cover, I just get excited and scared with joy and pleasure, pull my listening pajamas up high around my ass and waist and hope for the best. As I do receive! My neighbors don’t hear it yet(or so I think) as it is winter up here in NYC and all the windows are closed, but it can be heard from the street, a short distance away in the boro where I live.My reason for questioning was if the power surge filters have any effect on the actual sound quality, as I haven't really heard any difference? Do these filters cut-off highs, maybe 'round-out' the bass too much? Erase some detail, ruin the 'edge' of musical transients, etc. As it is they don't seem to work in triggering my amps at turn-on like the booklet says they should. I believe its because there is a relay in the pre-amp that's just not cohesive in triggering the amps to be on with this filter from the Monster#3500Mk.2 A/C filter. I had a similar problem with a ‘Adcom 515’ A/C filter and returned it to the seller as I was lucky he refunded me the money, I thought it just didn't work properly. Might you know anything about this occurrence with the Phase Linear pre-amp's relay? I read in reviews on forums that other people with other different pre-amps were having the same problem. I may be stuck turning everything on manually, but that’s O.K. too, makes my feel more in control (might I be a 'control-freak'? Perhaps). Kind of like turning on a giant 'live-front' switch board on in the 'engineering' spaces as they were called on a World War 2 U.S. Navy ship. When I was in the Navy (1969) we were taught how to do those things to get a ship moving, exciting stuff getting a Battle- Ship,Cruiser or Destroyer started and moving. Those rigs were all controlled by electricity. All systems were electric, with 'M-G' sets everywhere except for steam, but even the steam was controlled by electric switches, etc.Thanks, Frank Marsi, or for those more private types of AR guys, use frankmarsi@verizon.netP.S. It might be that my 4 power hungry , two Phase Linear400 powered AR woofers equal the effective radiating area of an Electro-Voice 30 inch monster that you mentioned?On that note many years ago circa 1970's I read that the AR 12" woofer has an effective radiating area that was considered optimum it terms of the best of all possibilities. This was referring to all types of recorded musical instruments of course, string bass, tympani drum, tom-tom and speed of a snare drum and any other bass requirement below its cross-over point. The actual area being about 8 1/2 inches or so, not to be confused with an 8inch speaker. This would relate to their (AR's) 3/4 inch domes radiating area for highs and midrange's area also. Funny how after AR made that fact seeming true every manufacturer in the world decided to produce domes of very similar size and most makers decided to use foam half surrounds, even to this very day, correct me if I'm wrong. In terms of musical electric basses, my 1968 Fender 'Bassman' amp had only 2-12 inch speakers. I realize that for more power and volume, musical instruments produce more SPL with 15 inch speakers, but I presume 'Fender' felt the two 12" speakers approximated a 'stand-up' stringed acoustic bass the best with only the 2-12inchers.FMAnyone care to comment, as I welcome and value all opinions, certainly! Frank Marsi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynaco_dan Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 >3-7-06 Subject: “A/C surge protectors, A/C power filters”>To all members and those who typically respond to me, Vern,>Pete B. and respects to all!>Dear Vern, 'go-on' tell me those stories, will ya, I have>tons of stories myself and I value yours! When I said 3/4>volume settings I was exaggerating, it's really about 2/3 of>usable power before I blow everything up in a fireball of>destruction and chaos, speakers, amps, my mind, then sadness>and regret will take over. The volume control on my PL4000>preamp is at about 10 or 11 o'clock position, and the PL400>amps might be going to the almost zero db. level on peaks.>Those levels are enough to blow 1-1/4 to a 3 amp fast blow>fuse on a AR-3a easily, but not on an LST as the LST can 'eat'>loads of power as most owners would attest to. Most any layman>would run for cover, I just get excited and scared with joy>and pleasure, pull my listening pajamas up high around my ass>and waist and hope for the best. As I do receive! My neighbors>don’t hear it yet(or so I think) as it is winter up here in>NYC and all the windows are closed, but it can be heard from>the street, a short distance away in the boro where I live.>My reason for questioning was if the power surge filters have>any effect on the actual sound quality, as I haven't really>heard any difference? Do these filters cut-off highs, maybe>'round-out' the bass too much? Erase some detail, ruin the>'edge' of musical transients, etc. As it is they don't seem to>work in triggering my amps at turn-on like the booklet says>they should. I believe its because there is a relay in the>pre-amp that's just not cohesive in triggering the amps to be>on with this filter from the Monster#3500Mk.2 A/C filter. I>had a similar problem with a ‘Adcom 515’ A/C filter and>returned it to the seller as I was lucky he refunded me the>money, I thought it just didn't work properly. Might you know>anything about this occurrence with the Phase Linear pre-amp's>relay? I read in reviews on forums that other people with>other different pre-amps were having the same problem. I may>be stuck turning everything on manually, but that’s O.K. too,>makes my feel more in control (might I be a 'control-freak'?>Perhaps). Kind of like turning on a giant 'live-front' switch>board on in the 'engineering' spaces as they were called on a>World War 2 U.S. Navy ship. When I was in the Navy (1969)>we were taught how to do those things to get a ship moving,>exciting stuff getting a Battle- Ship,Cruiser or Destroyer>started and moving. Those rigs were all controlled by>electricity. All systems were electric, with 'M-G' sets>everywhere except for steam, but even the steam was controlled>by electric switches, etc.>Thanks, Frank Marsi, or for those more private types of AR>guys, use frankmarsi@verizon.net>P.S. It might be that my 4 power hungry , two Phase Linear400>powered AR woofers equal the effective radiating area of an>Electro-Voice 30 inch monster that you mentioned?>On that note many years ago circa 1970's I read that the AR>12" woofer has an effective radiating area that was>considered optimum it terms of the best of all possibilities.>This was referring to all types of recorded musical>instruments of course, string bass, tympani drum, tom-tom and>speed of a snare drum and any other bass requirement below its>cross-over point. The actual area being about 8 1/2 inches or>so, not to be confused with an 8inch speaker. This would>relate to their (AR's) 3/4 inch domes radiating area for highs>and midrange's area also. Funny how after AR made that fact>seeming true every manufacturer in the world decided to>produce domes of very similar size and most makers decided to>use foam half surrounds, even to this very day, correct me if>I'm wrong. In terms of musical electric basses, my 1968 Fender>'Bassman' amp had only 2-12 inch speakers. I realize that for>more power and volume, musical instruments produce more SPL>with 15 inch speakers, but I presume 'Fender' felt the two>12"> speakers approximated a 'stand-up' stringed acoustic bass the>best with only the 2-12inchers.FM>Anyone care to comment, as I welcome and value all opinions, >certainly! Frank MarsiHi Frank;Were you in McHales Navy? lolAre you still wearing the 12" woofer basket on your head? lolLove your humour, Frank.There was this one time at band camp. lolUsing my AR amp as an example, it is off at the 6:00 o'clock PST and full on at about 5:00 o'clock PST. lolI can turn it up to about the 2:00 o'clock postion, without blowing 1 amp fast blow fuses, with my 3A's and regular type music.That is comfortably loud, I wish I could locate my sound level meters, to give you a more precise sound level.I believe that all amplifiers should have a soft start circuit, unless there is already a built in idling circuit.Walter Jung, I believe, designed a soft start circuit in The Audio Amatuer magazine, a few decades ago.There is such a tremendous load at start up,especially solid state equipment, particularly those with toroidal transformers.Next time you turn on your amplifier, look at your house lighting, particularly incandescent lighting, watch it flicker as the amplifier capacitors are charging.An amplifier can instantaneously draw hundreds of amps in a micro-second.On turn-on, it is almost a dead short in the amps power supply.The older style transformers were slower to react to the higher voltage and soft starts were not so much needed then.Tube amps are also very slow to start up.I seem to remember, someone ran one or two thousand watts into the LST's, to show how robust, they were.Power line conditioners are very expensive, Frank.Power bars and UPS's are much lower in cost and less controlling of the actual AC entering your home.If you have seen a 60 hertz sine wave in a movie, it flows up and down very smoothly.If you have seen a square wave, it is up and to the right, and down and to the right and up, etc..Now if you have seen speech on a scope it is up and down real jerky, well this is a truer picture of AC current at the Hydro poles.It is real dirty, as we hifi buddies, would say.Powerline conditioners may be over $1,000.00 for the purists.I can't say any more about them.Should we all have a reasonable cost AC filter?If you live in certain areas of the world, probably.Not a very good answer is it?We can only do so much, to be practical, whereever we live.I am not an expert on these things.If you live in an area with constant brownouts, and surges, a UPS of sufficient capacity may be for you.Stereophile magazine will probably done many reviews of these over the decades.I use a $5.00 power bar, with a power on switch.Sounds silly, doesn't it.Well, the next time you need to replace your no longer available lighted on - off power switch for your Crown DC-300A.Or the rotary power switch for your Dynaco 400 amp, a $5.00 power bar on - off switching arrangement makes sense.This does not prevent transient pops to your speakers or dimming of your lights.Even my UPS for my computer is an older APC 400 watt type.When my battery went dead after about 6 years, I replaced it with two with a slightly increased capacity.The solid state circuitry is very interesting.You can download the owners manual from their website.The only problem is, capacity, my amp would probably suck the juice out of the unit in a micro-second.In my case and yours, if we were to listen seriously, to some quality music or test signals, to see what differences we can detect with the amps plugged into it or not.Reading about this subject in Stereophile, might be much quicker, but less interesting.You liked my idea of the Electrovoice 30" woofer, Frank?Frank, what if a member has the time and resourses, to test a setup of 4 - AR-5's and 4 - AR-3A's woofers only to see what kind of output there would be, MMMMMM. 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rrcrain Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 I have to agree, starting a ship was both a challenge and fun. I was in the Navy from 78 to 84 based out of Norfolk, Va.Concerning powerline filters/ line conditioners/ voltage regulators etc. There are quite a few opinions on the internet ranging from the standard illiterate "they suck" stance to the owners who swear (rant) they are "God in a Box". I fall somewhere in the middle. Personally, I'm of the opinion that you should not buy such a device with the hope of improving your systems sound performance. Get them to fix real voltage problems, and if real problems are fixed, it's possible your system will sound better or at least live longer and need fewer repairs.Don't trust one level of surge suppression. Install whole house surge suppressors in the breaker panel. This will help absorb spikes generated by things like your fridge, central air and anything else that generates spikes as well as help control power line spikes. The power company is supposed to have surge control on their lines. I learned the hard way that sometimes they don't maintain these filters very well.As far as harming sustem performance/ sound quality, I'm equally doubtful on those claims as I am when I hear how much they imporove a systems sound. Can it? Possibly. Will it? I doubt it.Personally, I installed lightening and surge suppressors in the breaker box and have an AVS 5000 and HTPS 7000 in front of my stereo. I've heard absolutely no changes I can absolutely pin on any of these devices other than I've not had to have a single device repaired since installing the powerline filters and regulators. My system is rather old consisting of two Heathkit AA-1800 amps in a biamp configuration. (matching preamp and all that jazz) I've used the HTPS 7000 to control turn on and turn off, otherwise both coming on together can occasionally trip a 15 amp breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundminded Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 The answer is buyer beware. The less you know, the more easy it is to buy something expensive which does little or nothing of value. Beware equipment which is long on scaring you about how bad power problems are and short on its own performance specifications and detailed descriptions of its electrical design. Gingerbread like hospital grade receptacles are useless while spike and rf surpression should be taken for granted as these are not expensive features to incorporate. This is one area where even industrial users need to be well educated to avoid being fooled as the technique of har-em, scar-em, hook-em, and screw-em extends to equipment costing tens of thousands of dollars which is sometimes nearly worthless. Before most industrial users decide on what to by, a measuring device connected to a data logger or a chart recorder is used to measure "events" to find out whether or not there really are problems there. See if your utility can connect one for awhile if you suspect there are. Since real fixes to real problems are invariably expensive, my motto is usually "don't fix it if it ain't broke." But personal computers and other data equipment were particularly vulnerable to damage during electrical storms, especially their hard drives and the user often didn't find out until two weeks after the damage had been done. Protection from spikes for an entire house can be accomplished with a single device having two MOVs installed in your circuit breaker panel. Alternaively, you can buy several inexpensvive ones and plug them in appliances around your house. Since every branch circiut in your house is on either one leg or the other of a transformer and therefore in one of two parallel main circuits, if you plug one heavy duty MOV into one circuit on each side of the transformer, you will accomplish the same end. A lot has been made of RF noise on power circuits but most good electronic components filter it out through their power supplies. The worst source offenders I've found are some incandescent dimmers. If you have a buzz in your stereo system from one and a power conditioner you bought on a home trial basis doesn't work, the best bet is to return it and get your money back. The gold standard for power conditioners is a high quality on line UPS. If you buy one that does not have sufficient wattage capability for your equipment, voltage may fall momentarily during maximum draw and that can affect your sound system so it's not a matter of some secret device, just one of buying a UPS or conditioner which is large enough to easily handle the maximum load your sound system will present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrcrain Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Nothing serious there I disagree with except...Most UPS are designed for computer use and as such, produce a square wave output rather than a sine wave. Computer power supplies have no issue with this, but many other devices have serious issues. Things may have changed in the last 10 years regarding UPS output, but the old monster of a UPS I have for my computers does produce a square wave.Regarding whole house protection. There are several affordable and superior avenues that work better than MOVs. This is the one I chose. Delta markets both a lightening arrestor and a surge suppressor, each retailing for about $26. Each device has a total of three wires and installs in the breaker/ fuse panel.Concerning amplifier power supplies. Few, if any large amplifiers have any form of voltage regulation let alone real noise filtration. The high voltage rails often are regulated by nothing more than the transformer turns ratio, a full wave bridge rectifier and two huge caps.My amps are in this catagory and as line voltage fluctuates, so does the high voltage rails and every other voltage in the unit. Without the voltage stabalizer, this amps bias drifts, generally not bad, but it does drift. With the line voltage stabalizer, bias stays within a a few tenths of a milivolt of it's set point (35 mv). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundminded Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 >Most UPS are designed for computer use and as such, produce a>square wave output rather than a sine wave. Computer power>supplies have no issue with this, but many other devices have>serious issues. Things may have changed in the last 10 years>regarding UPS output, but the old monster of a UPS I have for>my computers does produce a square wave.A good UPS will specify harmonic distortion of its waveform. Its manufacturer will have a applications engineering department to assist with selection, not merely a sales department directing you to a distributor. Shop in places where electrical contractors and A/V contractors shop, not were audiophile equipment is sold and not the brands usually marketed to audiophiles or computer users. As I said, a good UPS is not cheap but even for scientific insturments, it is the gold standard for reliable clean power. It's a shame so many so called high end manufactuers do not supply regulated well filtered power supplies which can deal with rf. Given the prices they charge, you'd think it's the least they could do. When combined with no feedback in the amplifier gain circuits and especially with tube equipment, performance with an unregulated supply is unstable likely to drift wildly with not only voltage but ambient temperature as thermionic emission is a very strong function of current (Proportional to I squared.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted March 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 >>3-7-06 Subject: �A/C surge protectors, A/C power>filters�>>To all members and those who typically respond to me,>Vern,>>Pete B. and respects to all!>>Dear Vern, 'go-on' tell me those stories, will ya, I>have>>tons of stories myself and I value yours! When I said 3/4>>volume settings I was exaggerating, it's really about 2/3>of>>usable power before I blow everything up in a fireball of>>destruction and chaos, speakers, amps, my mind, then>sadness>>and regret will take over. The volume control on my>PL4000>>preamp is at about 10 or 11 o'clock position, and the>PL400>>amps might be going to the almost zero db. level on>peaks.>>Those levels are enough to blow 1-1/4 to a 3 amp fast>blow>>fuse on a AR-3a easily, but not on an LST as the LST can>'eat'>>loads of power as most owners would attest to. Most any>layman>>would run for cover, I just get excited and scared with>joy>>and pleasure, pull my listening pajamas up high around my>ass>>and waist and hope for the best. As I do receive! My>neighbors>>don�t hear it yet(or so I think) as it is winter up here>in>>NYC and all the windows are closed, but it can be heard>from>>the street, a short distance away in the boro where I>live.>>My reason for questioning was if the power surge filters>have>>any effect on the actual sound quality, as I haven't>really>>heard any difference? Do these filters cut-off highs,>maybe>>'round-out' the bass too much? Erase some detail, ruin>the>>'edge' of musical transients, etc. As it is they don't>seem to>>work in triggering my amps at turn-on like the booklet>says>>they should. I believe its because there is a relay in>the>>pre-amp that's just not cohesive in triggering the amps to>be>>on with this filter from the Monster#3500Mk.2 A/C filter.> I>>had a similar problem with a �Adcom 515� A/C filter and>>returned it to the seller as I was lucky he refunded me>the>>money, I thought it just didn't work properly. Might you>know>>anything about this occurrence with the Phase Linear>pre-amp's>>relay? I read in reviews on forums that other people with>>other different pre-amps were having the same problem. I>may>>be stuck turning everything on manually, but that�s O.K.>too,>>makes my feel more in control (might I be a>'control-freak'?>>Perhaps). Kind of like turning on a giant 'live-front'>switch>>board on in the 'engineering' spaces as they were called>on a>>World War 2 U.S. Navy ship. When I was in the Navy >(1969)>>we were taught how to do those things to get a ship>moving,>>exciting stuff getting a Battle- Ship,Cruiser or>Destroyer>>started and moving. Those rigs were all controlled by>>electricity. All systems were electric, with 'M-G' sets>>everywhere except for steam, but even the steam was>controlled>>by electric switches, etc.>>Thanks, Frank Marsi, or for those more private types of>AR>>guys, use frankmarsi@verizon.net>>P.S. It might be that my 4 power hungry , two Phase>Linear400>>powered AR woofers equal the effective radiating area of>an>>Electro-Voice 30 inch monster that you mentioned?>>On that note many years ago circa 1970's I read that the>AR>>12" woofer has an effective radiating area that was>>considered optimum it terms of the best of all>possibilities.>>This was referring to all types of recorded musical>>instruments of course, string bass, tympani drum, tom-tom>and>>speed of a snare drum and any other bass requirement below>its>>cross-over point. The actual area being about 8 1/2 inches>or>>so, not to be confused with an 8inch speaker. This would>>relate to their (AR's) 3/4 inch domes radiating area for>highs>>and midrange's area also. Funny how after AR made that>fact>>seeming true every manufacturer in the world decided to>>produce domes of very similar size and most makers decided>to>>use foam half surrounds, even to this very day, correct me>if>>I'm wrong. In terms of musical electric basses, my 1968>Fender>>'Bassman' amp had only 2-12 inch speakers. I realize that>for>>more power and volume, musical instruments produce more>SPL>>with 15 inch speakers, but I presume 'Fender' felt the>two>>12">> speakers approximated a 'stand-up' stringed acoustic bass>the>>best with only the 2-12inchers.FM>>Anyone care to comment, as I welcome and value all>opinions, >>certainly! Frank Marsi>>>Hi Frank;>>Were you in McHales Navy? lol>>Are you still wearing the 12" woofer basket on your head?>lol>>Love your humour, Frank.>>There was this one time at band camp. lol>>Using my AR amp as an example, it is off at the 6:00 o'clock>PST and full on at about 5:00 o'clock PST. lol>>I can turn it up to about the 2:00 o'clock postion, without>blowing 1 amp fast blow fuses, with my 3A's and regular type>music.>>That is comfortably loud, I wish I could locate my sound level>meters, to give you a more precise sound level.>>I believe that all amplifiers should have a soft start>circuit, unless there is already a built in idling circuit.>>Walter Jung, I believe, designed a soft start circuit in The>Audio Amatuer magazine, a few decades ago.>>There is such a tremendous load at start up,especially solid>state equipment, particularly those with toroidal>transformers.>>Next time you turn on your amplifier, look at your house>lighting, particularly incandescent lighting, watch it flicker>as the amplifier capacitors are charging.>>An amplifier can instantaneously draw hundreds of amps in a>micro-second.>>On turn-on, it is almost a dead short in the amps power>supply.>>The older style transformers were slower to react to the>higher voltage and soft starts were not so much needed then.>>Tube amps are also very slow to start up.>>I seem to remember, someone ran one or two thousand watts into>the LST's, to show how robust, they were.>>Power line conditioners are very expensive, Frank.>>Power bars and UPS's are much lower in cost and less>controlling of the actual AC entering your home.>>If you have seen a 60 hertz sine wave in a movie, it flows up>and down very smoothly.>>If you have seen a square wave, it is up and to the right, and>down and to the right and up, etc..>>Now if you have seen speech on a scope it is up and down real>jerky, well this is a truer picture of AC current at the Hydro>poles.>>It is real dirty, as we hifi buddies, would say.>>Powerline conditioners may be over $1,000.00 for the purists.>>I can't say any more about them.>>Should we all have a reasonable cost AC filter?>>If you live in certain areas of the world, probably.>>Not a very good answer is it?>>We can only do so much, to be practical, whereever we live.>>I am not an expert on these things.>>If you live in an area with constant brownouts, and surges, a>UPS of sufficient capacity may be for you.>>Stereophile magazine will probably done many reviews of these>over the decades.>>I use a $5.00 power bar, with a power on switch.>>Sounds silly, doesn't it.>>Well, the next time you need to replace your no longer>available lighted on - off power switch for your Crown>DC-300A.>>Or the rotary power switch for your Dynaco 400 amp, a $5.00>power bar on - off switching arrangement makes sense.>>This does not prevent transient pops to your speakers or>dimming of your lights.>>Even my UPS for my computer is an older APC 400 watt type.>>When my battery went dead after about 6 years, I replaced it>with two with a slightly increased capacity.>>The solid state circuitry is very interesting.>>You can download the owners manual from their website.>>The only problem is, capacity, my amp would probably suck the>juice out of the unit in a micro-second.>>In my case and yours, if we were to listen seriously, to some>quality music or test signals, to see what differences we can>detect with the amps plugged into it or not.>>Reading about this subject in Stereophile, might be much>quicker, but less interesting.>>You liked my idea of the Electrovoice 30" woofer, Frank?>>Frank, what if a member has the time and resourses, to test a>setup of 4 - AR-5's and 4 - AR-3A's woofers only to see what>kind of output there would be, MMMMMM. > Dear Vern,Look I'm loving you better than I do McDonalds, but when you make fun of my 'basket-head-dress', well then I have to draw the line. I have to sail past the Statue of Liberty every day and that's where I got the idea designed and styled my basket made from a burnt out AR 12 inch stamped steel basket. Now admittedly people do stare strangly at times if not all the time, but it does cover my baldness to a good degree. Some people even ask about it and comment on how lovely it looks. As you should Vern, I'm getting the idea here that you're making light of my creative and artistic ablilities. Look I can't go on with this, I'm happy wearing it and that's all that's to it, O.K.? You're just jealous cause you don't have one yourself, you haven't ventured on with what do to with a trashed AR woofer instead of just trying to repair them, I wear them, so there! Now leave me in peace as I listen to some classical. frankmarsi@verizon.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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