Mr. Ken Kantor, new 3/4" dome tweeter needed for 3 way AR speakers!

[kkantor]

Realistically, you need to find a distributer, such as Madisound, Parts Express or AB Tech who is willing to place a bulk order for this kind of thing. Tymphany has no infrastructure in place to sell to the public. (I can't just make tweeters, keep them in my lab, and UPS a pair out every time I get an email or a forum post....)

People on Classic Speaker Pages and Audiokarma, etc, need to get together and find a business entity who can stock the drivers, answer infinite questions, replace damaged parts, etc. If this happens, I will totally back the project, and lend whatever engineering support I can.

Of course, one has to be very realistic about the economies of this venture. I tend to doubt that it will be possible to sell more than 500 tweeters per year. If these sell for $40 each, that's $10K for the distributer, and $10K for the manufacturer. With engineering time, tooling, purchasing, parts cost, shipment, documentation, compliance, etc, the manufacturer would probably lose thousands. I might still do it, but not until someone placed a full order at a guaranteed price.

>Ken,

>

>How about an 8 ohm version as well for us AR 2ax and AR 5

>owners?

>

>I was surprised to see a used set sell last week on eBay for

>$42 plus $10 shipping, with 8 bids.

>

>Item number: 190057166492

>

>http://cgi.ebay.com/AR-Acoustic-Research-5...1QQcmdZViewItem

>

>I usually consider eBay as a universal barometer of demand,

>and there seems to be a brisk turnover of AR drivers like

>these, and it is usually not all from one source, indicating

>diversity of potential customers.

>

>I am looking for a set to replace mine in my AR 2ax's, and

>these are the second set that have died since they were new

>(both are Service Replacement units). I imagine I am not

>alone...seems like a common problem, and that would be good

>for your company!

>

>Thanks, Jeff

[dynaco_dan]

Hi Ken;

Thank you for clearing up this issue.

It now is more visible that a 4 ohm tweeter would require a substantial investment and committmant based on just your thought of 500 units a year.

A $10,000.00 factory order may seem small to some business people but the overhead and warehousing would eat up any profit pretty quick.

I would have loved to have been able to do that part as a small home office type business, but I cannot.

A fair price of $40.00 is reasonable considering all other currently avalable options.

To have an 8 ohm version produced and available would be the same investment or more considering there may be much less sold over a few years.

At least everyone tried with their input, we shall see what the future may hold for us.

It is not over, 'til we say it's over.

On another website, someone approached a motor manufacture and made a bulk purchase of AR Turntable compatible motors and made them available individually.

[Carlspeak]

" Realistically, you need to find a distributer, such as Madisound, Parts Express or AB Tech who is willing to place a bulk order for this kind of thing. Tymphany has no infrastructure in place to sell to the public. (I can't just make tweeters, keep them in my lab, and UPS a pair out every time I get an email or a forum post....)

People on Classic Speaker Pages and Audiokarma, etc, need to get together and find a business entity who can stock the drivers, answer infinite questions, replace damaged parts, etc. If this happens, I will totally back the project, and lend whatever engineering support I can.

Of course, one has to be very realistic about the economies of this venture. I tend to doubt that it will be possible to sell more than 500 tweeters per year. If these sell for $40 each, that's $10K for the distributer, and $10K for the manufacturer. With engineering time, tooling, purchasing, parts cost, shipment, documentation, compliance, etc, the manufacturer would probably lose thousands. I might still do it, but not until someone placed a full order at a guaranteed price."

I'm puzzled. How does AB Tech do what they do now? It seems they are the perfect fit for this endeavor. I can't imagine they are stocking and selling thousands of those other AR drivers they have custom made for them.

Has anybody talked to them about this?

I see on AB Tech's web site they are offering a 3/4 inch tweeter for the 3a and 2ax. Is this only the 8 ohm model? If so, What's stopping them from offering a 4 ohm version?

For those of you with mucho expendible cash and are desparate for a 4 ohm tweeter, Scan-Speak offers a 1" dome tweeter with 3.5 ohm DC res. and 90 dB sens. a prior poster was asking for (D2904/9800). The bad news is it's over $150.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[kkantor]

As far as I know, AB Tech doesn't manufacture any of the AR drivers, nor do they develop replacement designs. What they sell is either original AR inventory, which they continue to slowly burn through, or parts which have remained in limited production, which they buy in large lots and keep in inventory.

The folks at AB Tech know the loudspeaker industry, and the replacement market, very well. If it made financial sense for them to source certain parts, what has stopped them from doing it all these years?

Anyway, I'm really not trying to be negative, just realistic. I would welcome an order from AB Tech!

The other issue to consider is: how close to the original is close enough? For example, AB Tech does the best they can to repair any given speaker. Most customers are willing to accept the best match they can get, just to keep their speakers working. Many of these replacement drivers are not perfect copies of the original. For example, it would be very time consuming, from a development point of view, to source the original diaphagms, magnets, glue and soft parts. Any given balance here has a set of strategic risks associated with it. Do a "perfect" replacement, spend many hundreds of engineering hours, and charge $150. Do an economical replacement, and risk market rejection and wind up with a warehouse full of useless drivers. It's hard to justify these kinds of risks when the best case scenario is barely break-even. This kind of thing might appeal to a small, upstart manufacturer looking to make a name, or to a hobbyist looking for fun. It's hard to justify to a business that needs to meet payroll and allocate engineering resources.

[Carlspeak]

Understandably, it's darn near impossible to reproduce exactly those original AR tweeter designs. I agree, AR enthusiasts are going to have to either scrounge the web for good used vintage drivers or settle for something "close" in order to keep their speakers running or restoring something they just bought. I wish the purist restorers luck.

It's dissapointing to know the original 3/4 inch dome tweeter referenced in the initial post here by Minh Luong will no longer be available sometime in the future due to Tymphany's acquisition of the Vifa speaker line. That one seemed a pretty good fit. Vifa was a very popular line of drivers for DIY'rs. They had very good quality and were reasonably priced and also offered a very broad range of drivers. The Tymphany site shows very few are left :-(.

What's going on in the driver manufacturing industry? Has the DIY hobby faded since the 90's boon leading to a precipitous drop in driver demand? Even Speaker Builder magazine was amalgamated into its 'one size fits all' publication, AudioXpress 6 years ago. North Creek has stopped selling drivers to DIY'rs also. Are Madisound and Meniscus next? On the other hand, Parts Express has greatly increased its speaker building offerings. Can we expect to see further acqusitions and consolidation in the industry?

Ken, can you shed some light on all this?

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[kkantor]

Carl,

You are a pro in this field, what do you think? Your opinion is as valid as mine in this area. One could write a book on the evolution of the audio biz over the last 10+ years. I'm hesitant to summarize my views into soundbites. But, here goes:

1- The DIY community is absolutely insignificant in terms of economic impact in the driver business. (That doesn't mean it has no value as an influence, etc.) But, I assure you, the total annual US market for DIY speakers is about equal to one day's sales for a single large driver manufacturer. And there are a dozen+ manufacturers of this size. So, total US DIY and restoration speaker sales are a few hundreths of a percent of total driver sales. This amount, in turn, is spread out over countless old models and new DIY designs. Any given model is a fly speck on a fly speck.

2- It's hard to say if the DIY community is bigger or smaller than 10 years ago. Maybe a little smaller, but not that much. I'd say it was more fragmented now, with more voodoo and less attention to solid, affordable products, but this is just an unsubstantiatable impression on my part. DIY has always been somewhat polarized between the value-driven customers and the novelty-driven customers anyway.

3- Asia has a more healthy and growing DIY market than the US.

4- If there is anything about the audio biz that has changed over the last decade, DIY included, it is consolidation and monopolization of channels. Manufacturing channels, distribution channels, sales channels, advertising channels, etc. (This is true with many segments, like hardware, bookstores, pharmacies, etc.) How many small hifi stores are left? How many speaker manufacturers under $100M are left, excluding one-hit garage wonders?

This has created a gulf that it is very difficult for a small-ish company to cross. I personally don't think there is any viable business plan for a $1M to $10M audio company at the moment. This forces production runs to be larger, and makes it very expensive to buy small quantities of raw materials. To make a long story short, the DIY customer suffers from this, in the final analysis. I can expand on this at some other time.

5- I've always tried to support the DIY builder. I did this at AR, NHT, Jensen and Tymphany. The only way to do this is to make OEM designs available to end-users when possible. Custom development for the hobbyist market is a fantasy, at least for established driver makers.

You can factor my biases as you wish, but I am bugged by your statement to the effect that Tymphany's acquisition of Vifa has reduced the product availability to DIY'ers. First of all, the Vifa SKU's that were planned to continue, do continue unchanged at Peerless' "V-Line." Secondly, what makes you think that the Vifa product line would have continued as it was in any event? The merger with Tymphany was not a hostile takeover.

As I said before, you are a professional in this business. What has your experience been over the last decade?

[Carlspeak]

Thanks Ken for taking the time to share your insights into the loudspeaker driver marketplace.

I was a bit surprised to read your comments on item #1 and loved the fly spec on a fly speck analogy. It was very educational.

You asked what do I think? My prior post pretty much summed up what I perceive based on my limited experience. It's what I see from my vantage point, which, by the way, is far removed from yours. I run a very small business from my home but have been interested in speaker stuff for a number of years. Thus, I admittedly reside on the far fringe of the loudspeaker industry. I guess I'm also a 'fly speck' in the marketplace. But, never-the-less, I am still a customer who's simply expressing some concern over what I see occurring.

You described consolidation and monopolization in your item #4 but didn't really explain why it's occurring - which was my original question. From my experience, mergers, acquisitions and consolidation in almost any marketplace occurs because the market is not growing but instead it's either shrinking or in trouble - probably for a multitude of reasons.

Thanks also for the support you expressed for the DIY'rs. I fully understand the 'fantasy' comment and hope others who post here will also.

Lastly, I can only comment on what I see. I see on Tymphany's web site only 4 tweeter offerings under the "XT" and "DX" designations. The larger portion of Vifa's old tweeter offerings under the "TC" and "CLASSIC" lines aren't there. My Madisound catalog lists almost 20 tweeters under those two lines. Am I missing something here? If not, then these may represent the reduction in Vifa offerings I wrote about originally. If I'm wrong, please, by all means, set me straight. I don't know if the Vifa line would have continued or not. I'm simply a customer who's observing what's going on and am curious. I didn't mean to bug you with my questions or insinuate anything negative about Tymphany. The near-demise of the Vifa name suggested to me that an acquisition took place. Perhaps it was a merger as you wrote. In either case, they can be hostile or friendly. I never suggested it was either one. As I'm sure you well know, a brand name is a very powerful thing in the marketplace. I always viewed the Vifa line as superior to Peerless. But, fly specks have a very limited view of the world.

Please don't interpret any of my writing as sarcasm. It's just the way I write and thanks again for the lively discourse.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[kkantor]

Carl,

I think DIY is important. I see it as analogous to a passionate Political Action Committee that influences policy, but doesn't actually have a numerically meaningful voting constituency in any given district.

Why the consolidation? Who knows? It seems to have started with the rise of the national chain stores, like Circuit City, who dominate a retail area, but don't need to carry many brands. Now it feeds on itself. One can point to manufacturing automation, computer-aided design, materials science, the disappearance of acoustically recorded music, cyclical trends, etc.

To much of the world, loudspeakers are a commodity. As a rule of thumb, drivers sell OEM for between $0.50 and $1.00 per inch these days when purchased in high volumes, (say >50K/yr). In other words, a 12" woofer sells for between $6 and $12 on the industrial market. A 1" tweeter costs between $0.50 and $1.00. Sure, you can buy drivers that are cheaper, or much more expensive. Still, this range applies to reasonably well-made and decently performing units. Sales volume is the key determinant, since it is difficult to make less than 1,000 of any driver per lot on a high speed production line. Also, high NRE costs must be amortized. That's why, when I surveyed people here to see what the interest level in AR replacements was, and got <20 replies, I had to think twice.

I'm not really up on the Tymphany website, or details of what is in the product line, to be honest. When last I looked, there were about 25 V-Line (Vifa) SKU's, and 60+ ScanSpeak SKU's.

[mluong303]

Alex Barsotti, the owner of AB Tech services has always been with AR since the very early days and working for Ed Villchur and at one point working as testing and signed off AR equipments before boxed up and leave AR factory. He has been with AR and follow through servicing AR equipments after he opened AB Tech in early '90. The AR replacement drivers pretty much started when AR ordered the AR-3a drivers made by Tonegen of Japan to fill the batches of Hong Kong AR-3a limited custom order speakers. The first batch was 500 pairs follow by two other batches I couldn't confirm the numbers! The Tonegen drivers were expensive, high quality and well built with consistency of Japanese production standard and not cutting corner type of products at all. The spec of the drivers were from the AR-11/10Pi stock. If one insist on there is a different in sound quality between the original AR drivers and the Tonegen drivers than it should be the fabric used for the tweeter and midrange domes, the butyl latex material, the adhesives for different parts which play a main roll in speaker drivers manufacturing process and finally the magnet sources. To me, The Tonegen drivers are the closest AR replacement drivers money can buy in the market and 99% of AB Tech speaker drivers buyers are not members of the Classic Speaker Pages. All other vendors just order their stocks from AB Tech and being a middlemen. It is lucky for AB Tech to stay in business in the past 15 years and I wish them all the Best.

People had changed a great deal in the past 10 years in terms of buying and spending. When Home Theater technologies took over, the two channels systems fading out slowly and after the .com , stock market crashed, 1997 China took over Hong Kong and the 9/11 tragedy hit then all the people who used to have the money to waste and keep the HiFi markets growing started vanished quickly! So, what you have left now are mostly talkers and dreamers but not buyers!

When I post this thread to Ken, I just hope some how he can get Vifa to custom order the extra wide face plate (to fit the AR tweeter opening) and adapt it to one of the production model Vifa tweeter which will not raise production cost that much. It will be impossible to think of a new tweeter being made with low price tag and to guarantee of steady sale in the unpredictable future and should one of the "Expert" ever say it is not close matched to the original then your entire investment may end up as scrapped metal and plastic!!!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to Everyone,

Minh Luong

[Guest Bret]

Ken -

Let’s see if I understand all we’ve concluded correctly:

There is a market for the wrong $89 driver to replace the tweeter in an AR-3a, but there is no market for the right tweeter at that price. We know this because SS and ABT sold-out of the $89 tweeter. Ergo, someone bought it.

The consumer has concluded that the 3a sounds good enough to bother fixing, but not good enough to bother fixing correctly.

Retailers of replacement tweeters have concluded one of two things:

1)They can make money selling replacement tweeters that will fit in the cabinet, but they cannot make money selling the right tweeters to truly replace the damaged originals

2)It really isn’t worth all the trouble of offering tweeters that are right

In defense of the second conclusion; they probably have a very, very good point. The 3a tweeter is remarkable in many respects, but so what? The way they are mounted on the baffle, the way the grill is mounted above that, and the way the lip of the speaker protrudes, all this remarkable dispersion is likely interfered-with to the point of not being worth bothering about. Why go to all the trouble of exactly re-creating a tweeter when the speaker system itself defeats much of what’s good about the tweeter?

To the first possible conclusion above I respond - “Hey guys, you gotta remember what business you are in --- unless, of course, you want the result of doing business with you to be so poor nobody bothers.”

If I were to wreck my El Camino and destroy the bumper, I really am not interested in buying the bumper for a Ford F-150 because the bolt holes match-up. The man who insists the Ford bumper is the official replacement for the Chevy will eventually go out of business and El Caminos will stop being repaired.

Gentlemen, in my opinion two things are true:

1) “If you build it, they will come.” Witness the willingness of Asian buyers to pay extremely high shipping costs to get original and/or restorable 3a’s across the big pond. It is a strange logic which produces a world in which they will pay $300-500 in shipping and wait a month to get a pair of $200 3a’s, but then would not pay $100 for an authentic tweeter so their investment was fully preserved. ( I suspect braggin’ rights or pride of ownership, too.)

2) *The* important characteristic currently missing in the available replacement is not what made the original tweeter so special and difficult to exactly reproduce. The off-axis power is really special, of course, but with differences in rooms, their reflectivity, and differences in system placement in that room, in addition to the speaker design’s limitations, I doubt rather seriously our ability to hear all but the most tragic deviation from the original design.

In my humble opinion, what was completely overlooked in the replacement driver I have played-with was its ability to ***smoothly*** integrate with the existing crossover. The driver played too loudly, too deeply and made the resulting “speaker system” not worth listening-to at any angle. This is not a problem which can be corrected with tone controls or an equalizer - it would require a re-design of the crossover and that is beyond what the casual repairer can do.

My current candidate for “tweeter of choice” to reproduce would be the original light-colored dome from the AR-11 and 10pi for these reasons: In a 3a “improved” or “limited” it would leave a small hole at the bottom of its range which is far harder to hear than a peak. In a 10pi or 11 it would work rather better than the later ferrofluid drivers - why? I don’t know, but it does sound better. In a 3a or even a 3 it would be possible to attenuate it back to the original “level” of the original tweeter - - we'd be much closer to "right."

That aside, all *I* need to be satisfied is not a miracle, but a tweeter that will “shut-up” at the lower end of its range as quickly as the originals. I suspect this is why people are reporting good results with ribbons and other exotic tweeters which in no way replicate the wide dispersion of the original. Those designs tend to have an inability to play down into the midrange.

The question of market viability of such a driver has already been answered for us by the retailers selling a bolt-in replacement tweeter for Classic AR’s. All questions of “is there a market” have been answered by the businessmen who offer a replacement and who, after selling out of their last bunch, bought more.

The central question for us is: Will they ever sell one that works correctly if we don’t insist on it?

The question for them is: Will you ever sell another tweeter if someone else builds one for love, not money?

[Carlspeak]

Ken

Thanks for your comments and honesty. I fully empathize with you because I also worked in manufacturing for over 30 years making American made products. It's simply not easy any more to compete.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Guest Bret]

>It's simply not easy any more to compete.<

Particularly if you have decided to manufacture a commodity and go for gross dollars instead of gross return.

[kkantor]

Bret,

I think all this back and forth is obfuscating my main and crucial point:

Customer distribution is vastly different than driver manufacturing. A totally different business. Tymphany does not sell to end users. If AR replacements become availabe to end-users, it is because a DISTRIBUTER has been convinced to place an order with a manufacturer. I can support the engineering side, but I cannot be a sales channel. Someone must place a PO. That is the critical missing element.

That's really the beginning and end of the situation. All else is embellishment.

Two footnotes:

1- No major driver manufacturer sells directly to end users. Not one. There are good reasons for this. (Foster doesn't, GGEC doesn't, NMB doesn't, Mei Loon doesn't, etc.)

2- My estimated and calculated world-wide total market for serious AR replacement drivers is tiny. A few hundred units per year, at best. There is no hidden, pent-up demand of any substance. Trying to create even a break-even business plan for this is a dubious effort.

[kkantor]

In case it isn't clear, Foster was contracted to build all of AR's drivers when the AR Norwood facility was closed in the early 80's. (Well, it was "Tonegen" that the contract was with, but Foster has owned Tonegen for many years.)

There has been no effort made by Foster to design or build aftermarket replacement AR parts. Foster simply continued to build production parts that they received a sufficient PO for, or sold off old warehouse stock. The main reason AB Tech stopped selling certain AR parts is that there is insufficient demand to meet Foster's minimum order requirements.

[Carlspeak]

".....When I post this thread to Ken, I just hope some how he can get Vifa to custom order the extra wide face plate (to fit the AR tweeter opening) and adapt it to one of the production model Vifa tweeter which will not raise production cost that much....."

If I read this extracted text correctly, it would seem a simple adapter plate for the existing 4 ohm Vifa driver you originally proposed would fill the bill in lieu of K.K. making a large, expensive, non-profitable run of custom sized Vifa tweeters. Perhaps a machine or carpentry shop could be contracted to fabricate a few hundred of these plates for some entrapreneur (perhaps a poster here?) to sell to the masses yearning for a decent 4 ohm replacement tweeter. The investment should be relatively small. Perhaps sell the plates in the $10-$30 price range and satisfy the apparent demand from AR owners?

I suggest you hurry though. As I posted earlier, it seems the world's supply of Vifa tweeters is about to shrink and your recommendation may become extinct.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Pete B]

Yes, fabricating a new plate was mentioned in the past:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...581&page=9#9606

It seems that an adaptation should be possible. The Vifa .75"

tweeters have a snap on faceplate that would make things a bit

more difficult. I'd probably go for a .75" with a screw on

plate.

Pete B.

>Alex Barsotti, the owner of AB Tech services has always been

>with AR since the very early days and working for Ed Villchur

>and at one point working as testing and signed off AR

>equipments before boxed up and leave AR factory. He has been

>with AR and follow through servicing AR equipments after he

>opened AB Tech in early '90. The AR replacement drivers

>pretty much started when AR ordered the AR-3a drivers made by

>Tonegen of Japan to fill the batches of Hong Kong AR-3a

>limited custom order speakers. The first batch was 500 pairs

>follow by two other batches I couldn't confirm the numbers!

>The Tonegen drivers were expensive, high quality and well

>built with consistency of Japanese production standard and not

>cutting corner type of products at all. The spec of the

>drivers were from the AR-11/10Pi stock. If one insist on there

>is a different in sound quality between the original AR

>drivers and the Tonegen drivers than it should be the fabric

>used for the tweeter and midrange domes, the butyl latex

>material, the adhesives for different parts which play a main

>roll in speaker drivers manufacturing process and finally the

>magnet sources. To me, The Tonegen drivers are the closest AR

>replacement drivers money can buy in the market and 99% of AB

>Tech speaker drivers buyers are not members of the Classic

>Speaker Pages. All other vendors just order their stocks from

>AB Tech and being a middlemen. It is lucky for AB Tech to

>stay in business in the past 15 years and I wish them all the

>Best.

>

>People had changed a great deal in the past 10 years in terms

>of buying and spending. When Home Theater technologies took

>over, the two channels systems fading out slowly and after the

>.com , stock market crashed, 1997 China took over Hong Kong

>and the 9/11 tragedy hit then all the people who used to have

>the money to waste and keep the HiFi markets growing started

>vanished quickly! So, what you have left now are mostly

>talkers and dreamers but not buyers!

>

>When I post this thread to Ken, I just hope some how he can

>get Vifa to custom order the extra wide face plate (to fit the

>AR tweeter opening) and adapt it to one of the production

>model Vifa tweeter which will not raise production cost that

>much. It will be impossible to think of a new tweeter being

>made with low price tag and to guarantee of steady sale in the

>unpredictable future and should one of the "Expert"

>ever say it is not close matched to the original then your

>entire investment may end up as scrapped metal and plastic!!!

>

>Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to Everyone,

>Minh Luong

[Pete B]

Ken,

I was surprised that you even considered this in the first place with the low volume consideration.

Seems to me the specs for the original non-ferro fluid 3a tweeter are needed and also those for the 10pi/11 type. As a minimum, Re, Lvc, Fs, and 2.83V/1m half space sensitivity. The mechanical drawing would also be helpful. Seems those with the data are not coming forward. Once these are known, then it is reasonable to look at what is currently available for modification.

[mluong303]

The AB Tech 3/4" AR tweeter was sold out in January 2006 and I wasn't informed of new order had been placed so I posted this thread asking for Ken's help to see if he would be able to find out any remote possibility to have a production Vifa tweeter with wide faceplate adapted for use as AR replacement tweeter so people around the World will have a decent economy tweeters for their AR speakers should they ever needed them for repair down the road...

The new shipment of 3/4" AR tweeters from AB Tech are back in stock since May 2006. It has always been the 4 Ohms version and if it is needed for the AR-2ax or AR-5 speakers then an 4 Ohms resistors is needed in series for the tweeter. $62.50 has always been the price for this tweeter for the past 8 years. $89 was the mark up price from other vendor who purchase their stock from AB Tech.

One area I would like to mention, the tweeter opening on AR-3a need to be drilled out two small opening like the AR-91 and AR-58S tweeter opening to allow the tweeter terminals sit in place for this new 3/4" AR tweeter.

Carlo Barsotti is the person to contact should you need any AR replacement drivers or parts.

http://abtechservices.com/arspeakers.html

Minh Luong

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1801.jpg

[Carlspeak]

>The AB Tech 3/4" AR tweeter was sold out in January 2006

>and I wasn't informed of new order had been placed so I posted

>this thread asking for Ken's help to see if he would be able

>to find out any remote possibility to have a production Vifa

>tweeter with wide faceplate adapted for use as AR replacement

>tweeter so people around the World will have a decent economy

>tweeters for their AR speakers should they ever needed them

>for repair down the road...

>

>The new shipment of 3/4" AR tweeters from AB Tech are

>back in stock since May 2006. It has always been the 4 Ohms

>version and if it is needed for the AR-2ax or AR-5 speakers

>then an 4 Ohms resistors is needed in series for the tweeter.

>$62.50 has always been the price for this tweeter for the past

>8 years. $89 was the mark up price from other vendor who

>purchase their stock from AB Tech.

>

>One area I would like to mention, the tweeter opening on AR-3a

>need to be drilled out two small opening like the AR-91 and

>AR-58S tweeter opening to allow the tweeter terminals sit in

>place for this new 3/4" AR tweeter.

>

>Carlo Barsotti is the person to contact should you need any AR

>replacement drivers or parts.

>

>http://abtechservices.com/arspeakers.html

>

>Minh Luong

After reading the above this morning, I went reviewed all the threads going back to your original post in March. It was quite an eye opener. There was a huge gap in posts from Mar. to late Oct.

It's now become clear that all the posts in the Nov-Dec time frame are rather moot in light of the apparent re-stocking of 4 ohm 3/4 inch AR replacement tweeters back in May which at least I was not aware of. Perhaps Carlo doesn't visit CSP discussion area? He could have cleared this up rather quickly.

I was also surprised to see the exact adapter plate I suggested recently was already fabricated (ref. your Nov. post #45).

Conclusion - let's put this whole discussion to rest and not post here any longer. But, instead, start a new discussion.

All in favor, say aye!

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Guest Bret]

>If AR replacements become availabe to end-users, it is because a DISTRIBUTER has been convinced to place an order with a manufacturer.<

Can you think of a way that we might encourage a politically acceptable distributor to place a PO in sufficient amounts to make it worth a manufacturer's time to undertake the project?

Perhaps you know an old friend distributor-someone you could call on this community's behalf and just ask what volume of preorders he would have to see in order to risk an order of sufficient size?

Or perhaps you know a member of this community you could call who also is an old friend of the distributor who could ask such a question if prudence requires that.

The problem from this end continues to be that we, as a forum, are ignorant of how many a manufacturer would have to make in order for the PO to be acted upon. We cannot encourage a distributor to "place the order" if the per unit cost were $400 each and the product were no better than a $50 alternative.

Someone who understands the distribution end of the business could communicate these things and "test the water" before having to dive in. But "how many do you want" depends on price and how close we get to replacement nirvana.

We can't know these things unless someone, somewhere, asserts something.

We cannot assure a market for an unknown product at an unknown price. We can't reassure a distributor, or promise purchases, of an unknown product at an unknown price.

I believe that I speak for many people here when I say that I will be glad to do my part, whatever my part is (within reason), if someone will simply tell us what they need from us and what we should expect in return.

I suspect you know who that someone might be.

As an aside - You know, Ken, we keep talking about the market for an AR replacement tweeter and we keep describing its rare and desirable characterisics. We all agree it was a remarkable little thing not only for its day, but even now.

Why, then, are we even talking about this as though the replacement market is the only market for this gem? Wouldn't any buyer of raw drivers at large consider this a viable option for even the most modern of speaker designs?

I'd think it would fit right into a 5" two-way system, even if it were plastic and sold in a theater in a box.

Okay, so I'm ignorant. Of the drivers that any manufacturer catalogs for sale, how did that driver arrive as a "standard product model" which any distributor can order? How did the Scan-Speak 1" dome tweeter get to BE the "standard" Scan-Speak 1" dome speaker?

Bret

[rl1856]

I think that the popularity of the AB Tech dome was due to availability as the only new replacement.

But doesn't the AB Tech dome require a crossover change to work as a seamless replacement ? If so then this driver is not the optimum replacement that seems to be desired, thus leaving open the possibility of demand for a true drop in replacement.

While some gauge of demand for a new driver can be infered from the prices paid on Ebay for vintage drivers, the issue of originality is also part of the equation. The ability to install a period replacement is important to a restorer who seeks to retain the original sound and appearance of the speaker- and both are factors in the cmv of the original speaker, particularly the 3 and 3a. To make an analogy, it is possible to completely rebuild a classic McIntosh tube amp, with all new parts. The final product will meet or exceed original factory specifications, but the resale value will be substantially less than a completly original amplifier. The collector/purchaser is paying for originality as much as the sonics. The classic audio market is not like the classic car market....

In another post, someone linked to a picture chronicle of the restoration of a pr of 3a's. Other than the replacement of the foam surround of the woofer, the only other work depicted was cosmetic restoration. The pots were disassembled and presumably cleaned up, while other photos clearly showed that the crossovers WERE NOT removed from the cabinets and the binding posts were left intact. In other words, the original parts and integrity of the speakers were retained.

A drop in replacement dome, that is a seamless replacement would have some demand. However I suspect that original drivers will still be valued by collectors who are interested in preserving resale value as well as sonics.

And yes, I would have an interest in a drop in, seamless replacement.

Best,

Ross

[kkantor]

Ross,

You summed it up perfectly, with regards to a vintage re-issue tweeter. I've seen this phenomenon with guitar collectors, too. A high percentage of restoration hobbyists would rather have a non-working speaker with all-original parts, than a working unit with anything new. (A more pragmatic personality isn't likely to be carefully restoring speakers from 1965 anyway.)

Plus, if you can't convince an audiophile that two pieces of wire sound the same, how are you going to convince them that two different tweeters sound the same? Measurements? I doubt it...

-k

http://kkantor.spaces.live.com

[Stormy2021]

Had to post this in this thread, since Bret brought up an issue I was on the verge of bringing up myself:

>>> As an aside - You know, Ken, we keep talking about the market for an AR replacement tweeter and we keep describing its rare and desirable characterisics. We all agree it was a remarkable little thing not only for its day, but even now.

Why, then, are we even talking about this as though the replacement market is the only market for this gem? Wouldn't any buyer of raw drivers at large consider this a viable option for even the most modern of speaker designs?

I'd think it would fit right into a 5" two-way system, even if it were plastic and sold in a theater in a box.

Okay, so I'm ignorant. Of the drivers that any manufacturer catalogs for sale, how did that driver arrive as a "standard product model" which any distributor can order? How did the Scan-Speak 1" dome tweeter get to BE the "standard" Scan-Speak 1" dome speaker?

Bret <<<

I totally agree with this.

All those tweeters, in all those catalogs, seemingly designed for some hazily-envisoned loudspeaker system a manufacturer *might* be building......so how DOES a driver manufacturer finally decide on what set of characteristics a "generic" tweeter requires?

So like Bret basically said, I'll bet SOME manufacturer out there could use XXX,XXX copies of the AR tweeter. This way the driver manufacturer could save a bit of time researching desirable characteristics for a new tweeter, their marketing people could use the AR heritage issue as a selling point AND the AR restorers could have their drop-in replacement.

[Carlspeak]

>Had to post this in this thread, since Bret brought up an

>issue I was on the verge of bringing up myself:

>

>>>> As an aside - You know, Ken, we keep talking

>about the market for an AR replacement tweeter and we keep

>describing its rare and desirable characterisics. We all agree

>it was a remarkable little thing not only for its day, but

>even now.

>

>Why, then, are we even talking about this as though the

>replacement market is the only market for this gem? Wouldn't

>any buyer of raw drivers at large consider this a viable

>option for even the most modern of speaker designs?

>

>I'd think it would fit right into a 5" two-way system,

>even if it were plastic and sold in a theater in a box.

>

>Okay, so I'm ignorant. Of the drivers that any manufacturer

>catalogs for sale, how did that driver arrive as a

>"standard product model" which any distributor can

>order? How did the Scan-Speak 1" dome tweeter get to BE

>the "standard" Scan-Speak 1" dome speaker?

>

>Bret

>

>I totally agree with this.

>

>All those tweeters, in all those catalogs, seemingly designed

>for some hazily-envisoned loudspeaker system a manufacturer

>*might* be building......so how DOES a driver manufacturer

>finally decide on what set of characteristics a

>"generic" tweeter requires?

>

>So like Bret basically said, I'll bet SOME manufacturer out

>there could use XXX,XXX copies of the AR tweeter. This way the

>driver manufacturer could save a bit of time researching

>desirable characteristics for a new tweeter, their marketing

>people could use the AR heritage issue as a selling point AND

>the AR restorers could have their drop-in replacement.

I've recently had a tough time finding ANY decent quality 4 ohm dome tweeter that won't break the checkbook such as Scanspeak's. They're as scarce as hen's teeth. Perhaps this fact alone may add justification for a production run of 3/4 or 1 inch units?

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Guest Bret]

>I've recently had a tough time finding ANY decent quality 4 ohm dome tweeter that won't break the checkbook such as Scanspeak's.<

If it's a question of cost, I don't see the issue. The AR-3a was not an inexpensive speaker - but just looking at the CPI numbers 1970 to present, it looks as though a 3a would cost something over $1,200 today. That's each, folks. Why would anyone be thinking they should put $36 worth of tweeters in a $2,400 pair of speakers?

So the idea of using $200 Scanspeak drivers doesn't shock me. But then, I'm not thinking of a quick-fix for eBaying; I'm thinking about living with them.

The XT19TD00-04 from Vifa looks like a candidate to me - although it's got the same problem all the "moderns" do - the crossover would have to be modified to make it shut-up at its bottom. It's under $40, too.

If $100-$200 is more than the market will bear, I'd say it's the market that needs to "get a grip."

Bret