Mr. Ken Kantor, new 3/4" dome tweeter needed for 3 way AR speakers!

[mluong303]

In the meantime these are the cheapest alternative anyone could ask for. Step down ring needed for these AR-303 tweeter to be used as replacement for AR 3 way speakers. I wonder if crossover modification needed to make them sound close to the original?

Spec's:

FS 1400 Hz

RDC 3.2 Ohms

SPL 89.5 dB 1 Watt / 1 meter 

eBay Item number: 5879594984

Buy them before they are sold out, especially for people who own AR-303, 303A, 302, 302T, 338, 338T, 228 etc.

Minh Luong

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1131.jpg

[RoyC]

Hi Minh and Everyone,

Minh, great idea getting Ken's input on this matter.

As Ed suggested above, it is probably important to keep it simple. Trying to do that, however, gets complicated if we are looking for one universal replacement tweeter.

The AB tech tweeter fits, is reasonably well made, and therefore has been a simple (although expensive) fix..if you like the sound. In the case of the AR-3a, if this replacement is simply dropped in it changes the original 3a character to a degree I personally do not like.

I have been able to make the AB tech tweeter (as well as a number of far less expensive tweeters) sound relatively satisfactory with crossover modifications. So much for keeping it simple!

There is no way any tweeter currently available will sound like a 3a tweeter unless a coil is put in parallel with it. The 3a tweeter, which has substantial output in its intended frequency range, simply does not have the extension into the midrange frequencies of any modern tweeter. The AR-11 schematic in the library shows what AR did to utilize their next generation tweeter with the same woofer and midrange. The early 90's AR-3a Limited had a .16mh coil across the tweeter. That tweeter, by the way, was more or less the same as the AB Tech tweeter.

Given these concerns, I am all for Minh's request for a less expensive alternative to AB Tech.

Perhaps all that is needed is a commercially available adapter flange with a 3+ inch hole in it:-). At that point there are a bunch of tweeters that could be "dropped" in and sound as good or bad as our current solitary option. Of course AB Tech will sell them for $25 each.

Ken, I'm good for 40 or so...

Roy

[Guest Bret]

>BTW. Bret I just won up my second set of AR3as on eBay from the Tampa area and would enjoy meeting you (and any other AR afficianados) some time in the Orlando, Jacksonville, St Augustine or Canaveral areas.<

This ought to be doable. Not this trip, but as I'm down here (Orlando) several times per year, we should be able to do this in the near future.

[Guest Bret]

I understand the issues. I really do.

But if I were an OEM, could I spec what amounts to a NOS-type tweeter for a 3a and order 10,000? Or is the minimum order $14,000,000.00?

Being a new driver, it might have a market elsewhere, too.

Bret

[soundminded]

The responsible decision to develop and market a new product by a large or medium sized company is usually the result of market research and analysis study projecting the likely return on investment with best and worst case guesstimates and risk/benefit considerations. But no matter how you slice it, the final decision is based on a guess of how many units will be sold at various price points which can be wildly off in either direction. The cost to manufacture per unit is strongly determined by the number of units produced, the initial cost of R&D, engineering, tooling and production start-up having to be amortized over the number of units sold. Many large corporations look to be making net profits from 18 to 24 months from the time of the expense to approve a business case. The arguements against the success of an AR 3/4" tweeter are strong. For the most part it would be regarded as another me-too product and its main attribute, it overwhelming superiority of dispersion at very high frequencies is not particularly prized by the majority of potential large scale customers, speaker designers for large companies whose current design fads look elsewhere for their most desirable attributes. If it were my money, I don't think I'd be too eager to invest in production unless a similar product could be adapted inexpensively, possibly for limited production runs for a special markets group.

>I understand the issues. I really do.

>

>But if I were an OEM, could I spec what amounts to a NOS-type

>tweeter for a 3a and order 10,000? Or is the minimum order

>$14,000,000.00?

>

>Being a new driver, it might have a market elsewhere, too.

>

>Bret

[kkantor]

Sure, we would generally accept an order of 10,000 pieces. Less for a higher-priced product. There might be a one-time tooling charge attached to the first order, if something unusual was required. And, the price quoted would depend on the likelyhood of ongoing business.

Looking at a hypothetical case, the math is pretty simple. For the sake of argument, let's say the raw BOM is $5.00 for a decent quality tweeter made in fairly small quantities, and $10 fully loaded. Meanwhile, we want to sell the product to a distributer for under $20, so you pay under $40. (Tymphany is strictly an OEM company. We have no mechanism to sell to end users.) That gives us a gross profit of $10.

Soooo... if we sell 5,000 units total, which I think is VERY optimistic, it's a $50,000 gross contribution. We'll call the metal and plastic tooling $5K, and allow for two extra spins to get it dialed in. That leaves $35,000 to cover sourcing, shipping, packaging, line yield, flights to China, promotion and, most of all, engineering design costs. If the sales are 2,000 pieces, the contribution drops to $5,000.

No way that these numbers will profitably support a new product development effort, which can take hundreds of engineering hours and several iterations involving machine shop samples, prototyping costs, etc. On the other hand, 5,000 pcs will likely support the adaptation of an existing, proven design. But, remember, I have to pull engineers off of other product development projects that will probably contribute 10x or 100x that amount. Clearly, a labor of love, not real business, a net loss, even if I am positive of the sales number.

Needless to say, I am estimating and rounding these numbers heavily. But this will give you an idea of the situation.

-k

[dynaco_dan]

soundminded please email me through this sites email system, please, I do not know your name. Thank you.

[Guest Bret]

>The arguements against the success of an AR 3/4" tweeter are strong.<

Yes, I didn't explain myself.

It never crossed my mind that Tymphany might want to produce it for itself; or that Tymphany would have the tiniest interest in selling a driver like this under any of its brand names.

Tymphany is controlled by some big venture capital groups and they usually want high ROE and want it yesterday. I was thinking that a customer of Tymphany would have to market what they, the customer, ordered.

If it is true that some people are having to put-together minimum orders of 2,500 units - then it must be true that someone will build in quantities of 2,500.

Tymphany (Scan Speak) has manufactured drivers to spec for other suppliers (North Creek for one). I cannot imagine that North Creek ordered 50,000 pairs of tweeters or woofers or promised $4,000,000.00 in orders (although they might have).

My thinking was that some enterprise might be able to order enough of these to make it worth Tymphany's while. If the manufacturer's price was low enough, then Tymphany's customer could do something akin to "dumping" the excess.

I had originally proposed that we figure-out how to use the 4 ohm 1/4" driver Tymphany already makes a workable solution. Making a true replacement driver is a more desirable option, but I have no clue if its doable.

But Tymphany is at the top. Would I really go to Tiffany to make some two-bit rings for a cracker jack box? Maybe Tymphany is not the right company to approach.

Ken should be able to guide us in this regard. When and if he does, we'd better be prepared to put-up or shut-up.

Bret

[johnieo]

>On the other hand,

>5,000 pcs will likely support the adaptation of an existing,

>proven design. But, remember, I have to pull engineers off of

>other product development projects that will probably

>contribute 10x or 100x that amount.

It has been obvious from the outset that the only viable solution would involve a minor change to an existing design (e.g. frame size.) Even then the costs are significant as you show, Ken. Same is true in other businesses. For example, if a semiconductor tool manufacturer wishes to add (bolt on) a small, commercially available measuring instrument to an existing product, the price increase for his enhanced product is 7x the cost of the added instrument. (CAD drawings, software integration, training, spare parts, and on and on and on...)

So the bottom line is: Is there a candidate tweeter that could be ever so slightly modified for use in the older three-way systems, even if it meant a slight change to the crossover?

[Guest Bret]

>It has been obvious from the outset that the only viable solution would involve a minor change to an existing design (e.g. frame size.<

John, you know I respect your opinion and I know what you suggest is the only "practical" solution, but we don't really need another "viable" solution - several of those already exist.

What we're talking about is totally impractical, its success hardly assured, and is utterly fantastic. But it isn't impossible. Since it isn't impossible, the rest of the details are just logistics.

Bret

[mluong303]

Hi Ken

I suggest the low cost 3/4" tweeter mainly just thinking of all the AR 3 way speaker owners in the World! There are so many people out there who need this low cost tweeter to bring their AR speakers back to listening working order without getting into the details of how accurate the speakers will sound compare to when they were new. Critical listeners who have the experience or care for the difference and willing to pay $150 per tweeter are likely to be in the .01 percent...

The bottom line is trying to help the people who just want to bring their beloved AR 3 way speakers back to enjoy their music in a least expensive way.

If it sounds like a loosing Money project then why even bother getting started? In the meantime, I will continue to purchase AB Tech tweeters since I have been buying them for all these years...

Minh Luong

[dynaco_dan]

>Hi Ken

>

>I suggest the low cost 3/4" tweeter mainly just thinking

>of all the AR 3 way speaker owners in the World!

Great topic, Minh.

Why stop here?

Cello, Heathkit and at least one other manufacturer, used AR drivers in their produced speaker systems.

There is no reason, an existing or upstart company won't see this tweeter as a consideration for inclusion in their product line.

I believe there is others out there, just waiting for a smooth response tweeter, at a reasonable price.

I do hope this topic is for a drop in AR-3A tweeter, mechanically, power handling capabilities and sonicly compatible.

Even a more extended upper response would be of value.

I am certain a suitable replacement can be made with the 8 ohm impedance, the resistor wired in parallel on the rear.

One product serves 2 purposes, one inventory item.

Now the tweeter will satisfy more than just the AR-3A and AR-LST market, there still is the potential manufacturers.

There are so

>many people out there who need this low cost tweeter to bring

>their AR speakers back to listening working order without

>getting into the details of how accurate the speakers will

>sound compare to when they were new. Critical listeners who

>have the experience or care for the difference and willing to

>pay $150 per tweeter are likely to be in the .01 percent...

>

>The bottom line is trying to help the people who just want to

>bring their beloved AR 3 way speakers back to enjoy their

>music in a least expensive way.

>

>If it sounds like a loosing Money project then why even bother

>getting started? In the meantime, I will continue to purchase

>AB Tech tweeters since I have been buying them for all these

>years...

>

>Minh Luong

[dynaco_dan]

Hi again;

I always think of something else afterwords.

If two resistors were mounted on the rear of the magnet.

Using no resistor, an 8 ohm tweeter.

Parallel one resistor, to drop from 8 ohms, to the modernly popular 6 ohms.

Parallel the other as well to drop to 4 ohms.

Now one product serving three markets.

[nefertem]

Hi my name is tim i have replaced my 93 with vifa tweeters and bravox woofers and they sound great thanks

[mluong303]

Another low cost option? this is 1" soft dome.

eBay Item number: 9700987318

AR 205VC Shielded Silk Tweeter #2-11-011-1

 

FS: 1550Hz

SPL 90dB 1 watt/ 1 meter

RDC 3.0 ohms

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1168.jpg

[Carlspeak]

>Sure, we would generally accept an order of 10,000 pieces.

>Less for a higher-priced product. There might be a one-time

>tooling charge attached to the first order, if something

>unusual was required. And, the price quoted would depend on

>the likelyhood of ongoing business.

>

>Looking at a hypothetical case, the math is pretty simple.

>For the sake of argument, let's say the raw BOM is $5.00 for a

>decent quality tweeter made in fairly small quantities, and

>$10 fully loaded. Meanwhile, we want to sell the product to a

>distributer for under $20, so you pay under $40. (Tymphany is

>strictly an OEM company. We have no mechanism to sell to end

>users.) That gives us a gross profit of $10.

>

>Soooo... if we sell 5,000 units total, which I think is VERY

>optimistic, it's a $50,000 gross contribution. We'll call the

>metal and plastic tooling $5K, and allow for two extra spins

>to get it dialed in. That leaves $35,000 to cover sourcing,

>shipping, packaging, line yield, flights to China, promotion

>and, most of all, engineering design costs. If the sales are

>2,000 pieces, the contribution drops to $5,000.

>

>No way that these numbers will profitably support a new

>product development effort, which can take hundreds of

>engineering hours and several iterations involving machine

>shop samples, prototyping costs, etc. On the other hand,

>5,000 pcs will likely support the adaptation of an existing,

>proven design. But, remember, I have to pull engineers off of

>other product development projects that will probably

>contribute 10x or 100x that amount. Clearly, a labor of love,

>not real business, a net loss, even if I am positive of the

>sales number.

>

>Needless to say, I am estimating and rounding these numbers

>heavily. But this will give you an idea of the situation.

>

>-k

>

>

Judging from the 1100 plus views of this post as of today, your above estimates of demand seem to be in the ballpark.

Likewise, I don't think all of those who took the time to follow this post are in the immediate market for a new tweeter.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[kkantor]

Got some good feedback from Sales on their interest in this project today. Nothing definitive yet, but encouraging.

-k

[mluong303]

Dear Ken,

Thank you for your efforts and attention toward the development of this tweeter. Personally I hope it will become a reality so everyone who own AR 3 way speakers or planning to purchase a used pair in the future will know where to turn to once they need replacement tweeters for a reasonable cost.

Best Regards,

Minh Luong

[gseimetz]

50.00 would be sweet and I would go up to 65. I've been buying plenty of Morel tweeters in that range for other projects.

glen s.

[Guest LCBurkett]

Dear Mr. Kantor,

My $10 garage sale AR3a speakers have been refoamed, recapped and the melted tweeter feed wires soldered. The 'first light' test on the bench last night was great fun. The bass and mid sound very clean but almost no tweeter output. After confirming crossover operation on both boxes the tweeters are apparently defective.

Therefore add 2 more tweeters to your marketing justification for a production run!

I'll refinish the cabinets and enjoy them as is while patiently waiting for the matching highs to return.

Thanks,

Loren Burkett

[kkantor]

There hasn't been any progress with this over the last several months, but I'm pretty sure it will happen sooner or later. At the moment, there are a large number of big projects going on, meaning that our technical resources are precious. But things change, and several of us are pushing to make an AR-compatible dome. Of course, you'll hear about it here...

-k

http://kkantor.spaces.live.com/

www.tymphany.com

[dynaco_dan]

Hi Ken;

Thank you very much for all of your efforts and also for keeping us well informed.

[mluong303]

Hi, Ken

Thank you for the update. In the meantime, I will keep on ordering the AB Tech 3/4¡± tweeters if the price is not a big concerned or order your AR-303 tweeters with custom step down rings to finish the restoration as a cheaper alternative which will involve more works and efforts to get them done right!

Minh Luong

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1729.jpg

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1730.jpg

[mluong303]

There are two well built and decent priced tweeters I found in the market which may be suitable to be used as replacement for the Allison model One / model Three and for the AR-3 speakers. As usual, they will be brighter in sound compare to the original tweeters which are likely at the end of their life and all sounded very smooth after all.

The name Vifa will be phased out and replaced by Peerless vline in the future!

http://www.riviera-acoustics.com/catalog/p...263&language=en

http://www.riviera-acoustics.com/catalog/p...762&language=en

Minh Luong

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1779.jpg

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1780.jpg

[Guest Islands Innovation]

Ken,

How about an 8 ohm version as well for us AR 2ax and AR 5 owners?

I was surprised to see a used set sell last week on eBay for $42 plus $10 shipping, with 8 bids.

Item number: 190057166492

http://cgi.ebay.com/AR-Acoustic-Research-5...1QQcmdZViewItem

I usually consider eBay as a universal barometer of demand, and there seems to be a brisk turnover of AR drivers like these, and it is usually not all from one source, indicating diversity of potential customers.

I am looking for a set to replace mine in my AR 2ax's, and these are the second set that have died since they were new (both are Service Replacement units). I imagine I am not alone...seems like a common problem, and that would be good for your company!

Thanks, Jeff