soundminded Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.c...464&ctab=4#TabsThis relatively recent 12" model from Dayton (DAYTON RSS315HF-4) distributed throught Parts Express looks to have many desirable characteristics for small high quality A/S systems including low Fs, low Qms, low Vas, and low distortion as well as high power handling capability and large excursion. Anyone care to speculate how this compares to the AR 12" as a modern day alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 >http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.c...464&ctab=4#Tabs>>This relatively recent 12" model from Dayton (DAYTON>RSS315HF-4) distributed throught Parts Express looks to have>many desirable characteristics for small high quality A/S>systems including low Fs, low Qms, low Vas, and low distortion>as well as high power handling capability and large excursion.> Anyone care to speculate how this compares to the AR 12">as a modern day alternative?Dear soundminded, I actually wondered about about this same woofer myself as a alternative for classic AR woofer uses. My first question is would it actually operate as an acoustic suspension unit, or is it better suited for a vented enclosure, as I presume it would be. If it does work in a acoustic suspension enclosure, would it actually provide the warm and deep bass extension that a vintage AR 12inch can offer or would it sound empty and shallow, or would it be overly responsive? I bet Tom Tyson would have a better and more knowledgeable opinion about this item, for that matter would Ken Kantor divulge some knowledge, but I regress, I'm asking too much from such accomplished individuals as I'm certain their lives have more important necessities and diversities, respectfully speaking of course. But, I believe that for certain they're thinking about more important matters of life unlike me in regards to my apparent fanaticism about this crazy hobby. I'm certain these accomplished individuals 'have-been-there-done-that' to dabble to any degree as I would in present times. Of course my respects to both of these 'men of achievement' as I believe they certainly are.Or would it not be wiser to assume that individuals as me and others on this site to simply realize that we're a dying breed that will become lost in time as everyone inevitably has done before us?If you do acquire more information, please allow me and others to share it with you.Respects to you and the other men I mentioned, frankmarsi@verizon.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundminded Posted February 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Parts Express gives data in their current catalogue which claims a system F3 of 38 hz in a 1.6 cu ft sealed enclosure about 4 hz lower than AR3/3a/10pi even though the free air resonance is about 7 hz higher. This driver can be used in vented enclosures whereas the Tonegen 1259 can not. This suggests to me that the suspension is somewhat stiffer. The feature which caught my eye was the relatively low Vas of 3.00 cubic feet about half that of the Tonegen 1259 speaker. This would make it practical to build a reasonably sized tower using 2 side firing drivers in a similar configuration of AR9, say about 4 cubic feet. Would the F3 of such a system also be correspondingly lower, say 24 hz instead of 28? The low Qms of 3.00 also suggests it could be a much more musically accurate woofer than say the Titan III driver. Could such a system also have a damping factor of 0.7 like the AR woofer in such designs? First one I've seen which might give the AR driver a run for its money in a practically small box...well maybe. That's why I asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 >>http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.c...464&ctab=4#Tabs>>>>This relatively recent 12" model from Dayton (DAYTON>>RSS315HF-4) distributed throught Parts Express looks to>have>>many desirable characteristics for small high quality A/S>>systems including low Fs, low Qms, low Vas, and low>distortion>>as well as high power handling capability and large>excursion.>> Anyone care to speculate how this compares to the AR>12">>as a modern day alternative?>>>Dear soundminded, I actually wondered about about this same>woofer myself as a alternative for classic AR woofer uses. My>first question is would it actually operate as an acoustic>suspension unit, or is it better suited for a vented>enclosure, as I presume it would be. If it does work in a>acoustic suspension enclosure, would it actually provide the>warm and deep bass extension that a vintage AR 12inch can>offer or would it sound empty and shallow, or would it be>overly responsive? I bet Tom Tyson would have a better and>more knowledgeable opinion about this item, for that matter>would Ken Kantor divulge some knowledge, but I regress, I'm>asking too much from such accomplished individuals as I'm>certain their lives have more important necessities and>diversities, respectfully speaking of course. But, I believe>that for certain they're thinking about more important matters>of life unlike me in regards to my apparent fanaticism about>this crazy hobby. I'm certain these accomplished individuals>'have-been-there-done-that' to dabble to any degree as I would>in present times. Of course my respects to both of these 'men>of achievement' as I believe they certainly are.>Or would it not be wiser to assume that individuals as me and>others on this site to simply realize that we're a dying breed>that will become lost in time as everyone inevitably has done>before us?>If you do acquire more information, please allow me and others>to share it with you.>Respects to you and the other men I mentioned,>frankmarsi@verizon.net>Frankmarsi & Soundminded,I believe that the Dayton 12-inch woofer mentioned is a very different animal from the AR-12W 200003 woofer. First of all, the Dayton seems to be a high-power subwoofer-type motor assembly. It has a high-current 2-1/2-inch voice coil, and it also appears to have a 1-inch peak-to-peak linear excursion capability, roughly twice that of the AR 200003 woofer. The AR woofer will go past 1-inch, but not without touching something, and not without distortion. Strangely, the Dayton has a higher free-air resonance (23 Hz vs. AR’s 14-18 Hz), which leads me to believe that it was designed to be used in either a vented or sealed enclosure (larger than the usual acoustic-suspension enclosure). This higher resonance is probably the result of a stiffer spider/skiver, designed to allow vented operation and to prevent sub-sonic frequencies from causing the woofer to self-destruct.What this all means to me is that this woofer is probably better as a subwoofer than the 200003 woofer, but probably unsuitable as a woofer in the 1.5-1.7 cu. ft. AR-type a/s enclosures. The system resonance in one of the standard enclosures would be above 43 Hz due to the higher free-air resonance, but the speaker could be equalized to go lower with less distortion at the extremes. Another problem, however, would likely be the response above 200 or 300 Hz -- same as in the 1259 woofer. Although the Dayton is spec’d to 1000 Hz, it probably does not do well in the upper ranges below the deep bass. Maybe in the AR-9 it would do better, but then it would not line up with that speakers special crossover, which looks to the 18 Hz free-air resonance of the 200003 woofers as part of the formula for flat, deep bass.--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundminded Posted February 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 >>>http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.c...464&ctab=4#Tabs>>>>>>This relatively recent 12" model from Dayton>(DAYTON>>>RSS315HF-4) distributed throught Parts Express looks>to>>have>>>many desirable characteristics for small high quality>A/S>>>systems including low Fs, low Qms, low Vas, and low>>distortion>>>as well as high power handling capability and large>>excursion.>>> Anyone care to speculate how this compares to the AR>>12">>>as a modern day alternative?>>>>>>Dear soundminded, I actually wondered about about this>same>>woofer myself as a alternative for classic AR woofer uses.>My>>first question is would it actually operate as an>acoustic>>suspension unit, or is it better suited for a vented>>enclosure, as I presume it would be. If it does work in a>>acoustic suspension enclosure, would it actually provide>the>>warm and deep bass extension that a vintage AR 12inch can>>offer or would it sound empty and shallow, or would it be>>overly responsive? I bet Tom Tyson would have a better>and>>more knowledgeable opinion about this item, for that>matter>>would Ken Kantor divulge some knowledge, but I regress,>I'm>>asking too much from such accomplished individuals as I'm>>certain their lives have more important necessities and>>diversities, respectfully speaking of course. But, I>believe>>that for certain they're thinking about more important>matters>>of life unlike me in regards to my apparent fanaticism>about>>this crazy hobby. I'm certain these accomplished>individuals>>'have-been-there-done-that' to dabble to any degree as I>would>>in present times. Of course my respects to both of these>'men>>of achievement' as I believe they certainly are.>>Or would it not be wiser to assume that individuals as me>and>>others on this site to simply realize that we're a dying>breed>>that will become lost in time as everyone inevitably has>done>>before us?>>If you do acquire more information, please allow me and>others>>to share it with you.>>Respects to you and the other men I mentioned,>>frankmarsi@verizon.net>>>>Frankmarsi & Soundminded,>>I believe that the Dayton 12-inch woofer mentioned is a very>different animal from the AR-12W 200003 woofer. First of all,>the Dayton seems to be a high-power subwoofer-type motor>assembly. It has a high-current 2-1/2-inch voice coil, and it>also appears to have a 1-inch peak-to-peak linear excursion>capability, roughly twice that of the AR 200003 woofer. The>AR woofer will go past 1-inch, but not without touching>something, and not without distortion. Strangely, the Dayton>has a higher free-air resonance (23 Hz vs. AR’s 14-18 Hz),>which leads me to believe that it was designed to be used in>either a vented or sealed enclosure (larger than the usual>acoustic-suspension enclosure). This higher resonance is>probably the result of a stiffer spider/skiver, designed to>allow vented operation and to prevent sub-sonic frequencies>from causing the woofer to self-destruct.>>What this all means to me is that this woofer is probably>better as a subwoofer than the 200003 woofer, but probably>unsuitable as a woofer in the 1.5-1.7 cu. ft. AR-type a/s>enclosures. The system resonance in one of the standard>enclosures would be above 43 Hz due to the higher free-air>resonance, but the speaker could be equalized to go lower with>less distortion at the extremes. Another problem, however,>would likely be the response above 200 or 300 Hz -- same as in>the 1259 woofer. Although the Dayton is spec’d to 1000 Hz, it>probably does not do well in the upper ranges below the deep>bass. Maybe in the AR-9 it would do better, but then it would>not line up with that speakers special crossover, which looks>to the 18 Hz free-air resonance of the 200003 woofers as part>of the formula for flat, deep bass.>>--Tom Tyson>Tom, thank you for your response. You are right, this driver was designed specifically as a subwoofer and probably would not be usable above 200 to 300 hz although it is apparantly so new Parts Express has not published its usual extensive performance curves and details yet and it won't be avialable for shipment for a couple of weeks. What you don't see but what is listed in their printed catalogue is their specification stating that the F3 of this woofer in a sealed box of 1.62 cu ft is 38 hz which surprised me. You are also right that it can be used in a vented enclosure and in the one they specified, it would have an F3 of 21 hz. I agree that this suggests a stiffer suspension. What attracted me to this woofer besides its advertised low second and third harmonic and low IM distortion is its low Vas which is 3.00 and its low Qm which is also 3.00. I've got an old McIntosh ML1C which I never liked and which has needed reconing of its 12" woofers and refoaming of its 8" lower midranges and perhaps I'll try building a 4 way system using this woofer in that enclosure. Obviously, any crossover network has to be designed to the drivers used and the AR9 crossover would be a gross mismatch for this sub woofer (or any other than the intended woofers) especially given the critical values of the components to match the resonant frequency of the installed drivers. At its price, it seems quite reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest elfranche Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 I have used them on my recent project. They are simply amazing.http://www.stormpages.com/elfranche/index.htmlcheers,E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.