roundhome Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hello Just got these, they have not arrived yet. Could some of you take a look at the damage just some chips but the speakers are so nice would like to do it the correct way.They are on ebay and the number is 5862479375. Not sure how to add a link from here to there.Thank youJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlspeak Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 >Hello Just got these, they have not arrived yet. Could some>of you take a look at the damage just some chips but the>speakers are so nice would like to do it the correct way.>They are on ebay and the number is 5862479375. Not sure how>to add a link from here to there.>Thank you>JimHi Jim. You've got a couple of nasty chips taking out what appears to be a very good looking pair of 3a's and, for a great price! I've worked on restoring a number of these and those rear labels are in excellent condition - unlike many I've seen that are either completely gone, torn or yellowed.I do cabinet refinishing and some repair work and have access to veneers. In my opinion it would be very difficult to match the rest of the cabinet by completely replacing the side with the chip. I suggest you find someone who could cleverly piece in a close match and be content with that. Just a suggestion.Remember, it's all about the musicCarlCarl's Custom Loudspeakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundminded Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Based on experience with vendors repairing expensive wood office furniture, I'd suggest you experiment on the side with various wood filler materials and stains until you can get as close a match to the color and texture of the AR cabinets as possible. Once you duplicate that, I think you will be able to make a nearly invisible repair since the areas are small and will be inconspicuous (except to you as you are likely to look at it every time you see the speaker.)You will also possibly need to refoam the woofer surrounds and clean or replace the potentiometers as well. Given the age of the speakers, to do a thorough restoration, replacement of the crossover network capacitors would also be well worth considering. There are lots of helpful tips and resources to obtain parts and technical information on this site. Congratulations on your excellent purchase and good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest postjob62 Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hi Jim,Looks like you got a pretty good deal on those 3a's! I too have a few pairs of classic AR's with cab/veneer damage and have been contemplating repair options myself. One of my 2ax's just has a couple of spots where the veneer is pulled up and missing but the underlying MDF is fine. For these, I am contemplating a veneer "splice" as Carl mentions. If you google up appropriate keywords, there are many resources online that outline the procedure. Walnut veneer is available many places mail-order, as well as at your local Rockler or Woodcraft woodworking stores. I have procured some myself at Rockler. The problem may or may not be matching the original thickness. I have not yet cut a patch piece to see if the thickness is close. If so, just find a piece of your purchased veneer where the grain match is close and go to work. Next problem are your big chips. I too have one even bigger on an otherwise decent 3a. I again say that I haven't tried it yet, but my thinking is to drive a few brads or staples into the wounded area for support, then fill the chipped-out area with either bondo or wood filler out to a flat area to match the sides which have been defined with heavy tape. I imagine the filler should be applied in subsequent coats rather than one large glob. The resulting repair to the MDF could then be reveneered as described.Then, given the complexity of patching veneer, there is always the option of just filling the area of missing veneer with the aforementioned bondo or plastic wood, then gently sanding it down to the level of the original veneer. The resulting patch could then be stained or even faux-painted to attempt a best match. It is my intention to stain a piece of scrap lumber with Minwax?(Do a search on this forum-it's been mentioned before)Special Walnut stain that is supposed to be a close match to the original color, then intentionally damage several areas. I will then attempt repairs with various materials and techniques to see what looks best.Again, a caveat here: as a fairly inept but nevertheless wannabe woodworker, I can absolutely guarantee you that all of this will be much more difficult than I have made it sound. Otherwise, I would have already jumped in rather than still being in the planning stage. So as Carl mentions, engaging a pro is a viable option. I have looked into it locally, and this type work is understandably pricey.Secondly, as I have learned from forum member Roy C., when these old beauties are refinished residual damage tends to not be as noticeable at normal listening distance as one might expect. (Much finishing and refinishing advice has been posted in this forum if you just search the archives).I would really like to see this thread take off! I know (re)finishing has been discussed at length, but repair is a different matter. Good luck with your project, and I'll assure you that in the end you'll find that it was worth it. If you love the classic look and sound like I do, there's nothing that can quite compare to a well-restored pair of 3a's!Regards,Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 Well the speakers arrived thursday. and they were vary well packed no extra marks on them. early 3As. 38577, 38574. the chip is nothing he must have blowen it up about 1/8 inch by 1/2 the other one is on the bottom. they had never been taken apart, all drivers work fine. will refoam and new caps give them a good coating of dansh oil and they will be ready to listen to already cleaned the pots they work fine now. I cleaned enough putty of one woofer to do four woofers there is putty all over out side and in side they didn't want these to leak I was vary impressed with the cabinets vary well braced it had been some time since I redid my AR3s I had forgot how well they were made.Jimwill work on the chip also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnieo Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 >early 3As. 38577, 38574. theJim:Would you be so kind as to look for a date code or date stamp on the woofers when you open the units? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 >>early 3As. 38577, 38574. the>>Jim:>>Would you be so kind as to look for a date code or date stamp>on the woofers when you open the units? >>ThanksNo luck on the first one it was just those litle blue ink stamps and they are smeared. these have the foam seround and no brown fermica mounting ring also it has the dampaning ring, its in nice shape. round magnet with the dimples and the mesh to keep out the fiborglass I have about 12 woofers of varing years but none like these my AR3s are bolted together with cloth serounds. will update when pull the other one. they have the one big wax cap with the 150 and 50 uf caps in it.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 We are in luck on the secound one it has something 29 1970 the month is smeared.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 It is lucky this speaker ever worked correctly the wires from the large cap were only twisted onto the terminal they were not soldered and they were not tightJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnieo Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 >We are in luck on the secound one it has something 29 1970>the month is smeared.Hello Jim. My guess is June.Previously, we found SN 38224 made late June 1970 to contain an cloth-surround Alnico-magnet woofer, whereas SN 39,429 contained a foam-surround, ceramic magnet woofer. So your SNs 38,574 38,577 are likely among the earliest ceramic magnet woofers. I know AR used damping rings in late AR-3 and a few early AR-3a models, but was unaware of their use in foam surround woofers. Tom, do you know how long these damping rings were used?Jim, thanks for your information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 >>We are in luck on the secound one it has something 29>1970>>the month is smeared.>>>Hello Jim. My guess is June.>>Previously, we found SN 38224 made late June 1970 to contain>an cloth-surround Alnico-magnet woofer, whereas SN 39,429>contained a foam-surround, ceramic magnet woofer. So your SNs>38,574 38,577 are likely among the earliest ceramic magnet>woofers. I know AR used damping rings in late AR-3 and a few>early AR-3a models, but was unaware of their use in foam>surround woofers. >>Tom, do you know how long these damping rings were used?>>Jim, thanks for your information!>>John, The foam damping rings were used only on the cast-aluminum, Alico-magnet woofer with the cloth surrounds (AR-3 and early AR-3a models), never on the ceramic-magnet, stamped-basket version. The reason was simple: the new cone used on the AR-3a ceramic-magnet woofer was a vacuum-formed, felted-paper material that essentially eliminated the "ringing" that would occur at the upper-bass frequencies in the earlier Alnico woofer before the damping rings were added. The new cone material and the lower crossover helped in this regard, but the lower crossover was mostly for improved dispersion in the upper-bass frequencies. These new cones were originally manufactured by Stevens company and subsequently by Loudspeaker Components Corp.--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 >>>We are in luck on the secound one it has something>29>>1970>>>the month is smeared.>>>>>>Hello Jim. My guess is June.>>>>Previously, we found SN 38224 made late June 1970 to>contain>>an cloth-surround Alnico-magnet woofer, whereas SN 39,429>>contained a foam-surround, ceramic magnet woofer. So your>SNs>>38,574 38,577 are likely among the earliest ceramic>magnet>>woofers. I know AR used damping rings in late AR-3 and a>few>>early AR-3a models, but was unaware of their use in foam>>surround woofers. >>>>Tom, do you know how long these damping rings were used?>>>>Jim, thanks for your information!>>>>>>John, >>The foam damping rings were used only on the cast-aluminum,>Alico-magnet woofer with the cloth surrounds (AR-3 and early>AR-3a models), never on the ceramic-magnet, stamped-basket>version. The reason was simple: the new cone used on the>AR-3a ceramic-magnet woofer was a vacuum-formed, felted-paper>material that essentially eliminated the "ringing">that would occur at the upper-bass frequencies in the earlier>Alnico woofer before the damping rings were added. The new>cone material and the lower crossover helped in this regard,>but the lower crossover was mostly for improved dispersion in>the upper-bass frequencies. These new cones were originally>manufactured by Stevens company and subsequently by>Loudspeaker Components Corp.>>--Tom Tysonthank you all for the responce on this I can safly say that these had not been taken apart before and they have the ceramic mag foam ring with a damping ring it is a two layer ring with cloth sandwiched in the middle and no monting ring on the stamped basket. and it looks like the a vacum-formed felt paper cone.Tom could this be some transition set of speakers?thank you Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 >>>>We are in luck on the secound one it has>something>>29>>>1970>>>>the month is smeared.>>>>>>>>>Hello Jim. My guess is June.>>>>>>Previously, we found SN 38224 made late June 1970 to>>contain>>>an cloth-surround Alnico-magnet woofer, whereas SN>39,429>>>contained a foam-surround, ceramic magnet woofer. So>your>>SNs>>>38,574 38,577 are likely among the earliest ceramic>>magnet>>>woofers. I know AR used damping rings in late AR-3 and>a>>few>>>early AR-3a models, but was unaware of their use in>foam>>>surround woofers. >>>>>>Tom, do you know how long these damping rings were>used?>>>>>>Jim, thanks for your information!>>>>>>>>>>John, >>>>The foam damping rings were used only on the>cast-aluminum,>>Alico-magnet woofer with the cloth surrounds (AR-3 and>early>>AR-3a models), never on the ceramic-magnet,>stamped-basket>>version. The reason was simple: the new cone used on the>>AR-3a ceramic-magnet woofer was a vacuum-formed,>felted-paper>>material that essentially eliminated the>"ringing">>that would occur at the upper-bass frequencies in the>earlier>>Alnico woofer before the damping rings were added. The>new>>cone material and the lower crossover helped in this>regard,>>but the lower crossover was mostly for improved dispersion>in>>the upper-bass frequencies. These new cones were>originally>>manufactured by Stevens company and subsequently by>>Loudspeaker Components Corp.>>>>--Tom Tyson>thank you all for the responce on this I can safly say that>these had not been taken apart before and they have the>ceramic mag foam ring with a damping ring it is a two layer>ring with cloth sandwiched in the middle and no monting ring>on the stamped basket. and it looks like the a vacum-formed>felt paper cone.>Tom could this be some transition set of speakers?>thank you >JimJim,You just never know; this could be a transition-set of AR-3as, but before we make any judgement it would be extremely helpful if you could attach (in a message) a few images of the woofers you have. I have previously seen the Alnico damping ring fastened to the cone of a ferrite woofer (#200003) on an eBay item, but it's origin was unclear. But before we could say anything else on your woofers, we probably need to look at what you have. Heaven forbid, you might have some sort of hermaphroditic AR woofer. --Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 >>>>>We are in luck on the secound one it has>>something>>>29>>>>1970>>>>>the month is smeared.>>>>>>>>>>>>Hello Jim. My guess is June.>>>>>>>>Previously, we found SN 38224 made late June 1970>to>>>contain>>>>an cloth-surround Alnico-magnet woofer, whereas>SN>>39,429>>>>contained a foam-surround, ceramic magnet woofer.>So>>your>>>SNs>>>>38,574 38,577 are likely among the earliest>ceramic>>>magnet>>>>woofers. I know AR used damping rings in late AR-3>and>>a>>>few>>>>early AR-3a models, but was unaware of their use>in>>foam>>>>surround woofers. >>>>>>>>Tom, do you know how long these damping rings>were>>used?>>>>>>>>Jim, thanks for your information!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>John, >>>>>>The foam damping rings were used only on the>>cast-aluminum,>>>Alico-magnet woofer with the cloth surrounds (AR-3>and>>early>>>AR-3a models), never on the ceramic-magnet,>>stamped-basket>>>version. The reason was simple: the new cone used on>the>>>AR-3a ceramic-magnet woofer was a vacuum-formed,>>felted-paper>>>material that essentially eliminated the>>"ringing">>>that would occur at the upper-bass frequencies in the>>earlier>>>Alnico woofer before the damping rings were added. >The>>new>>>cone material and the lower crossover helped in this>>regard,>>>but the lower crossover was mostly for improved>dispersion>>in>>>the upper-bass frequencies. These new cones were>>originally>>>manufactured by Stevens company and subsequently by>>>Loudspeaker Components Corp.>>>>>>--Tom Tyson>>thank you all for the responce on this I can safly say>that>>these had not been taken apart before and they have the>>ceramic mag foam ring with a damping ring it is a two>layer>>ring with cloth sandwiched in the middle and no monting>ring>>on the stamped basket. and it looks like the a>vacum-formed>>felt paper cone.>>Tom could this be some transition set of speakers?>>thank you >>Jim>>>Jim,>>You just never know; this could be a transition-set of AR-3as,>but before we make any judgement it would be extremely helpful>if you could attach (in a message) a few images of the woofers>you have. I have previously seen the Alnico damping ring>fastened to the cone of a ferrite woofer (#200003) on an eBay>item, but it's origin was unclear. But before we could say>anything else on your woofers, we probably need to look at>what you have. Heaven forbid, you might have some sort of>hermaphroditic AR woofer. >>--Tom Tysonhello Tom and everyone, I had to stop and think why such a term was used when referring to the AR world and woofers, but it sounds not like AR woofers. O.K. the Brandy was close by, no?This other guy is talking about actual cone material, is CSP's ready for such detailed analysis of such stuff? I've always observed and wondered myself about actual cone material. To comment; I bought my AR-3a's in July of 1972, the catalog offered both the 3a for $250. and the 3 for $225. I have copes and at some point when I get off my ars and I will make available to this site. My 2 3a's came as I bought them,with foam surrounds. They sounded almost awful for the first 3 days, with a hollow sounding mid and bass. I thought they needed to 'break-in', as they did.After a few more days they sounded like no speaker I had ever experienced. With-in 3 months I had burned out my tweeters,sent them back to AR and they replaced them,no charge of course. I decided at that point I better uograde from my Dynaco ST35 amp and self build a Dyna ST120. Tweeters lasted another 1 or 2 weeks and off to AR were my speakers again. Long and short the third time and after AR was simply sending the tweeters to me only. After the 6 or so time I went and spent $120. for 'Micro-Static' out-board tweeters circa early 1974, which to this day I believe contain the 'Bozak' tiny tweeters. I still us them on top of my stacked LST's and they sound terrific.What say?frankmarsi@verizon.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 >Hello Just got these, they have not arrived yet. Could some>of you take a look at the damage just some chips but the>speakers are so nice would like to do it the correct way.>They are on ebay and the number is 5862479375. Not sure how>to add a link from here to there.>Thank you>JimJim,Could you post some pictures of your speakers?Thanks,--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 >>Hello Just got these, they have not arrived yet. Could>some>>of you take a look at the damage just some chips but the>>speakers are so nice would like to do it the correct way.>>They are on ebay and the number is 5862479375. Not sure>how>>to add a link from here to there.>>Thank you>>Jim>>Jim,>>Could you post some pictures of your speakers?>>Thanks,>>--Tom TysonHello Tom I have some pictures not sure how to upload but will tryJimI can't get them to load can I send them to some one to put on the forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 >Hello Tom I have some pictures not sure how to upload but will>try>Jim>I can't get them to load can I send them to some one to put on>the forum?Jim,Do you have digital images or film photographs? If digital, then you can look down on the "Attachment" box (just below this message box) and left-click on the "Click here to choose your attachments." Once you have done that, the attachment box will appear somewhere on your desktop screen. Follow the instructions in that attachment box and you should be able to browse your computer's files (select the files where you keep your images) and then upload your images to the forum server. It's a little awkward, but I think you'll be able to attach a file. Be sure to select the type image file you are going to download, such as jpeg or whatever. Good luck, but if all else fails let us know, and we'll try to do the image for you.--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 >>Hello Tom I have some pictures not sure how to upload but>will>>try>>Jim>>I can't get them to load can I send them to some one to>put on>>the forum?>>Jim,>>Do you have digital images or film photographs? If digital,>then you can look down on the "Attachment" box (just>below this message box) and left-click on the "Click here>to choose your attachments." Once you have done that,>the attachment box will appear somewhere on your desktop>screen. Follow the instructions in that attachment box and>you should be able to browse your computer's files (select the>files where you keep your images) and then upload your images>to the forum server. It's a little awkward, but I think>you'll be able to attach a file. Be sure to select the type>image file you are going to download, such as jpeg or>whatever. Good luck, but if all else fails let us know, and>we'll try to do the image for you.>>--Tom TysonTom They are jpg 1.2 meg it just doesn't do anything with them when I go through the attachments sectioni have a Mac and I can't use the spelling checker on here it locks me up.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 >Tom> They are jpg 1.2 meg it just doesn't do anything with them>when I go through the attachments section>i have a Mac and I can't use the spelling checker on here it>locks me up.>JimJim sent me the images off-line, and I compressed them to present them here. I can't tell for sure what is going on with the damping ring, but it surely appears original, perhaps as though AR put rings on some early production versions of the ceramic woofer. It is definitely the 200003 woofer, as the stamped-basket flange detail is clearly evident. The woofer's surround appears to be factory-original because of the method of glue application to the inner surround attachment area, where the glue appears to have been applied with a automated-type glue gun used at the time. Therefore, I certainly have no explanation for this anomoly unless it was a very early production version of the 200003 woofer. It is possible that someone along the way added the damping ring (the rubber-foam rings have a strong adhesive backing and are hard to remove from the Alnico woofer cone without tearing the cone material) and put a new surround on it, but I cannot say for sure.Note, too, that the outer edge of the surround appears to be glued directly to the speaker's stamped-metal flange, whereas the generic 200003 woofer had the characteristic 3/16-inch approx masonite flange to "raise" the surround slightly to match the original height of the Alnico woofer surround, which has the thicker, cast-flange material.http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1011.jpgFig.1 AR-3a 200003 woofer with Alnico woofer inner-damping ringhttp://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1012.jpgFig.2 Second view of AR-3a 200003 woofer with Alnico woofer inner-damping ring--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnieo Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Jim:Thank you for providing photos; these must have been a transition driver, since Tom thinks everything is original. When you have the cabinets open, would you take a look at the woofer crossover coil and see if it had been changed to #9 by this serial number? Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 >Jim:>>Thank you for providing photos; these must have been a>transition driver, since Tom thinks everything is original. >When you have the cabinets open, would you take a look at the>woofer crossover coil and see if it had been changed to #9 by>this serial number? Thanks,>Hello the coil is a #7. Is the cap still a 150uf and 50uf? I hope so I allready ordered them.thanks for putting the pics on for me Tom.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Wow, that could be a missing link between the #7 coil and #9 coil versions! It also would mean that the #7 coil had a short run with the ceramic magnet woofer. #9 coil may have appeared when the damping ring was eliminated, not when the alnico woofer was discontinued!Jim, what do the midranges look like? Do they have a disk in the center, or are they the earlier type with no disk on the fiberglass pad?Thanks,Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 >Wow, that could be a missing link between the #7 coil and #9>coil versions! It also would mean that the #7 coil had a short>run with the ceramic magnet woofer. #9 coil may have appeared>when the damping ring was eliminated, not when the alnico>woofer was discontinued!>>Jim, what do the midranges look like? Do they have a disk in>the center, or are they the earlier type with no disk on the>fiberglass pad?>>Thanks,>RoyRoy sent Tom a picture, I think, but they have a disk in the center.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Thanks Jim,I don't want to be a bug, but now I am wondering about the fiberglass.Is the fiberglass yellow and shredded or is it brownish/tan batts? About that time, the type and amount of fiberglass was changed. The information would give us clues as to whether the stuffing change coincided with the new woofer or the new (#9) coil. There would probably be about 30 oz of the earlier, nasty brownish stuff or 20 oz of the later, yellow type.Any info regarding type and amount would be appreciated. Avoiding the fiberglass altogether, however, would be completely understood :-)!Thanks again for all the info you have provided on this rare specimen!Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundhome Posted February 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 >Thanks Jim,>>I don't want to be a bug, but now I am wondering about the>fiberglass.>>Is the fiberglass yellow and shredded or is it brownish/tan>batts? >>About that time, the type and amount of fiberglass was>changed. The information would give us clues as to whether the>stuffing change coincided with the new woofer or the new (#9)>coil. There would probably be about 30 oz of the earlier,>nasty brownish stuff or 20 oz of the later, yellow type.>>Any info regarding type and amount would be appreciated.>Avoiding the fiberglass altogether, however, would be>completely understood :-)!>>Thanks again for all the info you have provided on this rare>specimen!>>RoyRoy no problem it has the yellow shredded stuff I don't have a way to musure it but I would say about in the 20oz area.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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