" modern design trumps vintage.". A response.

[scottie munoz]

A forum response we typically see. A statement on my belief and  conversation starter is the purpose.

"The Allison one's were mentioned, are very much cousins of the ar-9, and I put a big *** here,  *** if properly restored with original drivers that has e been rebuilt by those who know how, not many...

 

*** the ar-9 would beat 95% of any modern speaker costing less than 5k in a double blind test.  I'm very confident of that.   Many new England AS speakers would.  The acoustic suspension system Vilchur invented and Kloss helped design and build in the mid 50's ar-1, perfecting it further in '57 with the ar-3- brought bass below 80 ha into average homes for the very first time.  They started the "golden agecofvthevkoydsoeaker, why btw, was over by '81 and the Ar-9, primarily.

 

 Because of their inefficiency, ( AS designs and drivers) ironic they specufically are the impetus for the wattage ways of early SS amps.  My Kenny kr-9400 was the highest wattage amp/receiver on the market on 71 when released.  That lasted 3 months.  Inefficiency of a driver is overrated, by definition, AS woofers, with sloppy loose suspension, are not giving you 94db spec....

 

However, 200wpc +amps/recievers have been affordable since the mid 70's. Right now, a Crown xli 1500 at 450 wpc into 8 ohms is barely $450 new.  Insane.

 

Today,  no company of any size makes AS drivers, let alone loudspeakers.  The last two AS sets of any import, both designed by the third greatest speaker designer and former AR designer and MIT grad at 18, also a pretty funny genius and  designer of the AR MGC "magic speaker " a decade earlier and greatest designer with us still today and working, the yellow ducky loving Ken Kantor, ( Vilchur and Kloss are 1 and and 2, Roy Allison, well ok, tied for 3( with the 1994 Nht 3.3 and the 1995 ar-303a and series) ( 303 series...8 speakers, a center and sub.   It has made the best atmos audio setup I've designed and installed period, an advantage in modern audio of AS designs...no rear port affecting placement of, in my case, a 11.4.6 atmos audio setup....out if 30 or so installs specifically for atmos audio.  Not HT.

While we're at it, Name a innovation since Vilchur and AS since the 50s, and one of those four men, my personal "big four" likely invented it. (Effect of boundaries and room placement, the invention of the dome driver, I could go on.

The fact that an average consumer younger than 45, that doesn't truly believe BT speakers and sound bars sound "amazing".... Equates AS as having diminished low end extension and for lack of better word, slow bass and transients.  They also have been deluded. "New has to be better" and guess what...new has been ported for 25 years primarily.  I restore vintage gear, AR and all related easy coast companies primarily.  A properly restored AR-11 for example...1972 I believe...or literally any 10 or 12" three or two way....has the tightest, quickest absolutely best replication of low end and overall replication of live music than any loudspeaker I've heard made in the last 20 years.  They on average, are flatter than any west coast or modern design not costing 5k plus, and at 5k is still  needed to get into the 20s.  The -3db point of an ar-9...28hz.

In contrast, the jbl l100 ( owned, hated, restored, sold for enough to buy a set of LST's and ar-9's, with a nice amount left.)h

Te century is the most popular vintage set. Period. But it's the least flat, it is inconsistent across the frequency band as you can get and has a low end spec of only 42 hz with a 12" woofer and ported, an xo of 2 caps and 2 pots,- that's it for a three way?!  ( no AR 12" set pre 1985, is worse than 38hz, the ar-9lsi../28hz.   By the way the non- bass it does have, again sounds like an old man farting.  It's poplar to plug the port, I wonder why?

Most AR 8" models go lower.  And all AS systems make ported bass sound boomy, bloated, kinda fart-ish.  Here comes the ringer...ready!...much cheaper to make- as a port is nothing more than an artificial replacement for cabinet volume.  Smaller, cheaper cabs including high end are simply cost efficient, I.e. more profitable.  Henry Kloss, hecof a thousand patents, sole motivation was to design thevgreatstvsoeaket he could make that an average everyman/woman could afford.  I argue, he and vilvhur are not given due credit for the largest cultural phenomena, the 60's and the hippies...who "almost" changed the ways humans live and love.  Previously audio replication was...not.  Kloss and vilchur made the nascent music form, rock n roll, primed abd needing to be "loud", but also needing room for dynamics.  Mom and dads console wasn't going to do it.  That the boomers and terns could hear the lyrics and the instrumental interplay, and hear it ckearkyvfir the first-time in a average American home, quite literally, in many respects could gave and so most did change the world, literally. 

The tall black, ubiquitous modern m tower with 76 5" drivers ( joke):and go down to only 50hz, if your lucky, and the room allows and still needing a sub, have been the standard for 20 years.  I haven't had a need for a sub other than for HT, and complementing the great 8" vintage  2 ways like epi 100, dynamo a25, klh 22, ar-4x.  And yes those subs are AS and superior... I never ever use a sub for music other than in stereo, ( two subs).  2 channel stereo- if a three way and a 12" woofer goes lower than most 10" modern subs.

The big reveal!!!!

I'm no older boomer- cranky about that loud hippity hop, (I am a very big hip hip fan, and basshead to boot.. Rock n roll, how ever it comes, is my passion, however.)..... and will tell anyone you might be near about how much better it was "in my day".

I just turned 41, and I've restored / repaired vintage and contemporary audio equipment full time for myself successfully for 13 years.  I was born the year the single best loudspeaker, of all concerns, the ar-9, was released.

I'm very happy to listen to those long timers tell me how much better it was in their day.  They were right all along!

Scottie

Edited April 7, 2022 by scottie munoz
Grammar

[Anthonyv62]

The new KLH Model Five, recently introduced Model Three, soon to be released Model Seven, and planned Model Six and Model Seventeen speakers are all acoustic suspension designs. 

When the Model Five was first introduced last year, KLH President David Kelley (with Klipsch before purchasing KLH) publicly stated that "The past and future of KLH lies with acoustic suspension."  

[AR surround]

21 hours ago, scottie munoz said:

I just turned 41, and I've restored / repaired vintage and contemporary audio equipment full time for myself successfully for 13 years.  I was born the year the single best loudspeaker, of all concerns, the ar-9, was released.

Scottie, I bought my AR9's in August 1978.  So they are actually a tad more senior than you.   I still have them and still love them no end.

[bjmsam]

Thank you for your service and significant sacrifice.  I hope you recover soon and continue cultivating your son's interest.  I chimed in on your thread.  😉

[scottie munoz]

41 minutes ago, bjmsam said:

Thank you for your service and significant sacrifice.  I hope you recover soon and continue cultivating your son's interest.  I chimed in on your thread.  😉

Appreciate it.

[scottie munoz]

On 4/7/2022 at 2:40 AM, Anthonyv62 said:

The new KLH Model Five, recently introduced Model Three, soon to be released Model Seven, and planned Model Six and Model Seventeen speakers are all acoustic suspension designs. 

When the Model Five was first introduced last year, KLH President David Kelley (with Klipsch before purchasing KLH) publicly stated that "The past and future of KLH lies with acoustic suspension."  

I'm glad to hear... And was aware.  This guy ran klipsch for 10 year's however.  Known as a shittalker.

 

We'll see.

[Anthonyv62]

"Shittalk" seems pretty common - especially in the world of audio. 😉 

Other than his time with Klipsch I know little about Mr. Kelley, except that his new line of KLH acoustic suspension design speakers continue to be well received and seem worthy of the famous KLH name. 

[harry398]

 

1

 

 

 

[scottie munoz]

On 4/12/2022 at 1:02 PM, Anthonyv62 said:

"Shittalk" seems pretty common - especially in the world of audio. 😉 

Other than his time with Klipsch I know little about Mr. Kelley, except that his new line of KLH acoustic suspension design speakers continue to be well received and seem worthy of the famous KLH name. 

In glad to hear that, truly.  Hadn't heard much about their reception.  They look...average.  But who cares if they sound good.

Scottie

[Anthonyv62]

Scottie, Photographs really don't do the new KLH's justice.  I think their "average" look is true to their understated but attractive New England lineage.  I've seen and heard them up close and they have that familiar, simple, classic look to them (more so the English Walnut/Stonewash linen grill version than the African Mahogony/Old World linen grill versions). IMO the new Model Five could have easily carried the AR or Advent emblem (if either of those two legendary brands were resurrected) as it does KLH without insult to the Kloss legacy. When I first saw an actual pair of Mahogany Model Five's I thought they resembled a larger version of the early 1990s Cambridge Soundworks Model Six with the "greyish" grill fabric. 

Soundwise, I've spent a fair amount of time with the "new" Model Fives last November, listening to everything I wanted to hear on both CD and vinyl, using both tube and solid-state amps. Regardless of what was played and how it was played, these speakers could never be mistaken for anything but acoustic suspension. Overall, in my opinion, they were impressive - maybe better than impressive. There's something very familiar sounding to the "new" Model Five that's very reminiscent of its classic Kloss "predecessors." 

[AR surround]

I'm daydreaming about this forum going absolutely crazy if someone revived the AR line like David Kelley has done with KLH.   Meanwhile, the temptation to try a pair of these new M5's grows stronger...

[genek]

The real question in my mind is not whether modern design is "better" than vintage, because in almost all cases the modern product will be better constructed and more durable than vintage, if only because of improvements in materials and manufacturing processes. But the biggest difference between modern and vintage is, IMO, the user listening preferences that product is designed to satisfy. And most of today's audio consumers are looking for something very different than what what was popular 40 or 50 years ago.

If the designers of today's KLH set as their target a speaker that would sound like a direct descendant of Henry Kloss' original designs, the result will likely be a speaker most fans of the originals will think sound as good as or better than any vintage model they could find and restore. But they could just as easily build a large 3-way with a sizable acoustic suspension woofer, target the response at Floyd Toole's 1990s' listener preference survey results and produce an end product that most AR/KLH/Allison speaker fans will think sounds like a screeching magpie.

[ar_pro]

And most of today's audio consumers are looking for something very different than what what was popular 40 or 50 years ago.

This could not be more true, and it's perhaps an understatement.

Spend some time on the various sites devoted to newbie audiophiles or vinyl enthusiasts to get a notion of what's currently popular or desirable among younger listeners.

 

 

[scottie munoz]

Quite the opposite, I have found in my experience. 

Firstly, as a child of the 90's, I was a heavy grunge rock n roll fan.  I was 12 when Kurt Cobain commuter suicide for perspective.  I grew up with nothing but rock n roll, as a release from an incredibly repressed- hyoervreligous upbringing.  Quitevlitrallybibcam remember being thankful for finding a 45 wpc RCA receiver and speakers in the trash, for no other reason than it drowned my screaming parents, far better than my previous 8wpc Sony rack system!

So I started working 40 hours a week from the age of 12. You got me out of that hell of a house for 8 or 10 hours a day and it gave me just enough money to get not a very good system.  However I could get a really great system if I figured out how to fix it which brings us today...

But before I get to "TODAY", quickly,  I don't know how it happened but I was gifted a set of ar9s from an uncle that died and barely knew at the age of 14, once I broke them, fixed, then broke again...and got a amplifier that could push them...the 45wpc  wpc rca wasn't up to the task I'm afraid... I can't put into words what that set of ar9's did the rock music I was passionate about...to the hip-hop I was just really getting started with- generally because this was about the time it was becoming a much more serious art form rather than party music, not to say anything wrong with party music.   I'll tell you there's not a better speaker- hands down for listening to hip-hop with then to ar9.  As much as it may pain some of the long timers here, I completely understand the Generational Gap, however coupled with the fact that I have 17, 12 and 8 year old sons.  Also, pre pandemic Id still go to 6-7 shows a year.   I don't mean this in sense of braggadocio, but I do have a reasonable sense of what's in the heads of  "the kids"  then maybe someone just 10 years older... based on the peculiarity of how I came up in hifi and music. I have full face of faith and measure that what's just around the rising is going to change "hifi" in the best way, forever.

It is going to revolutionize and recreate an actual speaker industry

"Dolby Atmos AUDIO".  Not to be  mistaken with Dolby Atmos " HT"..... is the new "stereo versus mono" and it's going to win, assuming that the public can get beyond the obvious quote on quote "marketer's dream"  ("not 2, but 2*** speakers!!!")...also known as a cash grab that it may appear to be. 

 I've done 25 + strictly Atmos AUDIO Centric setups and I've learned a lot. All I can say at the moment...it's the real deal, and an ideal Atmos AUDIO setup is nothing like a HT set up. In fact the best setups I've designed have zero dedicated subwoofers.   5-7 FULL range speakers on the floor, 35hz or lower at least for 75% of them,  2-6 more on the ceiling... and now your kicking.  ( "wish you were here" just got released remastered in atmos audio...Jesus!!)   

We're at the intersection of the Public's loss of interest in mono bluetooth speakers and Sound Bars,  the re-ignition in the interest of speakers from the Golden Era...(I  broke six figures in profit for the first time in ten years the first year of the pandemic. Sold more Classic and ADD sets, Large advents and Klh to under 30 buyers than I ever imagined I would in my life...(and for the record, @royc,  is a well known name among the under-30, internet obsessed crowd.!).  "You've spoken to Roy, ( they always say the full "Roy")  ha ha, sort toy, it's true, all the time ) and now the advent (no pun) of Atmos Audio.  It's great time to be a fan of hi-fi as much as it might not appear to be on the surface.

I've done more than a few Dolby Atmos audio set-ups using nothing more than restored vintage Ar's, Advents and KLH's, although I will say my personal Atmos Audio set up in my home is, with respect, the best I ever heard (2 nht 1259's in the ceiling, infinite baffle?  Yes.) utilizes every one of the 12-  303 Series speakers...and it is glorious to see a 4x mounted on the ceiling, I've got pics! more than a few. 

(Redacted)

....Grunge Rock music in the early nineties led me straight back to chuck berry, Elvis and the Beatles strainht to the Beatles..The Beach Boys... Stones... Dylan.

And no particular way do I think of myself as special however I believe I have unique perspective on popular music listen 2 through the loudspeaker technology of the day and that even applies to 1984-ish, I think is when the LS series stopped being produced...the little hiccup in the mid-90s with the limited and classic series, and the venerable 303 series by the returned prodigal son Ken Kantor, set to regain AR's place in the world.  And to me, critics of the time, and most (some?) of us, he succeeded admirably of the mission statement of the 303, Johnny Q Public apparently didn't get the memo.  Apparently too busy listening to ported Klipsch's with those God awful horn tweets and fart noises where bass is supposed to reside.

I'd just as soon think of 84ish till today as a black hole in speaker quality/tech "generally". ( Dont meet too many TSW fanatics.).

Now, actually, I'm excited again.

"Dolby Atmos AUDIO"

It's been recorded in that format, or remastered.  No 2 channel up converted to surround sound BS with the early AV receivers... this is listened to just like it was recorded.  Same as we claim in two channel world, " listen to it as it's recorded, right? Probably gonna change the world.  Dead serious and I feel like I've got a good restricted it's going to make stereo versus mono look silly and give us a new speaker industry. That has been long run gone. 

    I've got pretty good upper entry level to expert knowledge base in every major and minor trend for much of the 75-year run of rock and roll and pop music, including Hip Hop, which like it or not, is the rock n roll of the 60's or 70's.  It's also incredibly more artistically inclined and intelligent than what passes for hip hop on white pop stations/streaming spots.

I challenge any here  with a 12" ar three or 4 way to listen to "good kid maad city" by a 21 yr old Kendrick Lamar on vinyl.  Evocations of early Dylan. (I own and have memorized every Dylan album, even the shit ones.  "Subterranean Homesick Blues" is THE first hip hop song, listen again!)   what the kids listen to today sounds just as good on my current setup, to my sons, not me necessarily.  although I agree...

My 2 channel set up is never the same however it always includes a 3a or descendant generally, and they stream through the wifi from their phones to my 2 channel setup...pop music of today, a lot of hip hop, classic rock all the time, and they don't even question why we don't have a subwoofer...when they go to their friend's house to there Dad's HT systems with 5 SVC 15" subs, subs alone costing more than my car, ya know!?!!

Amazing, (and annoying, yes?)

To be cont.....

Edited May 2, 2022 by scottie munoz
Grammar more to follow

[AR surround]

10 hours ago, scottie munoz said:

"Dolby Atmos AUDIO".  Not to be  mistaken with Dolby Atmos " HT"..... is the new "stereo versus mono" and it's going to win, assuming that the public can get beyond the obvious quote on quote "marketer's dream"  ("not 2, but 2*** speakers!!!")...also known as a cash grab that it may appear to be. 

 I've done 25 + strictly Atmos AUDIO Centric setups and I've learned a lot. All I can say at the moment...it's the real deal, and an ideal Atmos AUDIO setup is nothing like a HT set up. In fact the best setups I've designed have zero dedicated subwoofers.   5-7 FULL range speakers on the floor, 35hz or lower at least for 75% of them,  2-6 more on the ceiling... and now your kicking.  ( "wish you were here" just got released remastered in atmos audio...Jesus!!)   

I jumped on the Atmos AUDIO / Auro3D bandwagon late last summer.  Yes, it is the real deal and I'm not going back.   (AR9 fronts, AR91 center, AR90 surrounds, Boston A70 rears, four Boston A60 in the ceiling plus a Boston A40 as the top, and NO subwoofers) My only disappointment is that there is not enough Atmos high-resolution physical material being released; but rather mostly low-bandwidth streaming via Apple Music or Tidal.   It's the same nonsense we've been dealing with for decades whether it be lousy LP pressings, brickwalled CDs, etc, where people who actually care about sound quality are considered a niche market.

Furthermore, anything from the "classic rock" period that is released as Atmos physical media is only available in pricey box sets.   Many of these sets are not selling well and eventually are dumped as clearance items...possibly relegating the stuff into the "niche market" grave.   Abbey Road and Let It Be have sold OK, but not something like The Band's $150 MSRP Cahoots box set.  The last I looked, Amazon was dumping them at $65 each...that's still too much for that album.

[scottie munoz]

4 minutes ago, AR surround said:

I jumped on the Atmos AUDIO / Auro3D bandwagon late last summer.  Yes, it is the real deal and I'm not going back.   (AR9 fronts, AR91 center, AR90 surrounds, Boston A70 rears, four Boston A60 in the ceiling plus a Boston A40 as the top, and NO subwoofers) My only disappointment is that there is not enough Atmos high-resolution physical material being released; but rather mostly low-bandwidth streaming via Apple Music or Tidal.   It's the same nonsense we've been dealing with for decades whether it be lousy LP pressings, brickwalled CDs, etc, where people who actually care about sound quality are considered a niche market.

Furthermore, anything from the "classic rock" period that is released as Atmos physical media is only available in pricey box sets.   Many of these sets are not selling well and eventually are dumped as clearance items...possibly relegating the stuff into the "niche market" grave.   Abbey Road and Let It Be have sold OK, but not something like The Band's $150 MSRP Cahoots box set.  The last I looked, Amazon was dumping them at $65 each...that's still too much for that album.

I agree fully with your "but.". I'll add sacd to that list.  I do feel, as much as hard as it is to ween my way off physical media and " embrace" the wild west of streaming...thsys it's not as bad as I thought 3 years ago.  Maybe not saying much....but!?!? 

Scottie

* if it was "music from big pink", is be all over $65!

 

 

[bjmsam]

11 hours ago, AR surround said:

AR9 fronts, AR91 center, AR90 surrounds, Boston A70 rears, four Boston A60 in the ceiling plus a Boston A40 as the top, and NO subwoofers

Wow!  Have you posted details and photos of this setup anywhere?  That vintage "classic speaker" approach surely rivals high-end "modern" designs.

My seven channel HT employs AR9 as front left/right and my custom "AR9C" as center with DefTech UIW BP/A sides and KSI 8081-CSD rears; I have imagined including my AR90 pair and other AR (3a, 3a-Improved, 94) and BA (T830 and A60) pairs so am interested in your experience.

What I can't imagine is being satisfied with earbuds, "mono bluetooth speakers and Sound Bars..."  😞

[Aadams]

7 hours ago, AR surround said:

but rather mostly low-bandwidth streaming via Apple Music or Tidal

I am not doing this (yet) but you can stream Lossless Atmos and Hires tracks on Apple Music now..  The catch is you almost always need an Apple device to get to the lossless streams.   In the case of 24/192 you also need an outboard DAC.

[bjmsam]

About lossless audio in Apple Music

Samplerates: the higher the better, right?

 

[AR surround]

4 hours ago, Aadams said:

I am not doing this (yet) but you can stream Lossless Atmos and Hires tracks on Apple Music now..  The catch is you almost always need an Apple device to get to the lossless streams.   In the case of 24/192 you also need an outboard DAC.

Some people are complaining about the Atmos streams on Apple Music not having the fidelity of the same material on the physical discs.   Read post #13 in this thread:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/impact-of-lossy-compression-when-streaming-atmos.32330/

He specifically says:

"...The Atmos that is being streamed (Apple in my case) is something different, but not by much. I have compared selections of the two titles above. This was not a scientific exercise by any means. A/B testing with a 5 second gap when inputs are switched is not ideal. But I did try to get the volumes close. and the timing reasonable. Each time I preferred the disc version. Try not to laugh at my stab at an audiophool term, but the stream sounds more grainy, especially through the midrange. There is more of what sounds like electronic haze on the top end. Its not difficult to hear.

That being said, its also easy for me to not listen so critically and just enjoy it. Stuff that I can't compare like the Atmos EJ stuff sounds just amazing. And there is even a great version of Rush's Moving Pictures in Atmos. A mix that finally does the album justice. Its so good it makes me want to buy the ridiculously priced box."

And post #33 (He does have and Apple TV4K device):

"...However, where I’ve had the opportunity to do an A/B between Atmos discs and Atmos streaming, the discs have had a very clear advantage. This is not what I would prefer, so my confirmation bias would certainly be in the other direction. Maybe it’s a matter of fidelity, but I haven’t really been able to hear big differences there once I'm north of 16bit/44.1kHz in the past if I’m honest. Even though what’s streaming is supposed to be the same mix as what's on the discs AFAIK, it’s just not manifesting itself that way when I A/B. From a disc, the separation is just so much better and the heights are way more active and in play… so much so, that I’m kinda resigned to “if there's an Atmos mix, I’m gonna try to buy the disc if available”—which I’d rather not due to the expense."

For me personally, I'd rather listen to clean stereo playback than grainy midrange and electronic haze...you know, the typical Dolby Digital sound...even if the sound field is spectacular.

[AR surround]

11 hours ago, bjmsam said:

Wow!  Have you posted details and photos of this setup anywhere?  That vintage "classic speaker" approach surely rivals high-end "modern" designs...

Here's a pic of the room, complete with a model railroad going around the HT / Audio system.

And a thread describing how I did the front height speakers:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/using-bookshelf-speakers-in-the-ceiling-for-atmos.30965/

(One day, I'm going to replace all of the speakers with AR9's, including the five in the ceiling...🤣)

 

[bjmsam]

That is wild.  Nicely done!  How far out of spec were the original BA caps you replaced?

[scottie munoz]

20 hours ago, bjmsam said:

Wow!  Have you posted details and photos of this setup anywhere?  That vintage "classic speaker" approach surely rivals high-end "modern" designs.

My seven channel HT employs AR9 as front left/right and my custom "AR9C" as center with DefTech UIW BP/A sides and KSI 8081-CSD rears; I have imagined including my AR90 pair and other AR (3a, 3a-Improved, 94) and BA (T830 and A60) pairs so am interested in your experience.

What I can't imagine is being satisfied with earbuds, "mono bluetooth speakers and Sound Bars..."  😞

For many years, or maybe it was the insomnia from young babies and C-ptsd, but I was convinced the world was going to hell with each of us clutching a "stereo" soundbar or mono BT speaker. 

I have awakened to find...maybe I was wrong.  Studios are embracing Atmos AUDIO unlike other bygone "new thing" formats, the biggest selling artist of the decade has re-recorded her entire discography in atmos, ( Taylor Swift, not specifically due to Atmos, but never the less).

My personal set up as it consists today is a 7.2.6, all 303 series/same era Nht.

302t x 2 fronts 

Lst/303/allison prototype center. (See bottom)

338 x2 rear Surr.

338 x2 side surround

218v x 6 ceiling height speakers

Nht 1259 woofer x1 ceiling mounted Infinite baffle, ( thus making ceiling channels "full range") ( attic)

Nht 1259 x1 woofer floor mounted (under my seat!) Infinite baffle (basement).

Onkyo tx rz 840 avr as atmos pre-amp

Parasound 5 channel power amp plus 3 crown xli 1500 stereo power amps

 

***Lst/303 atmos fever dream prototype...

3 sided baffle angles back 3/4 of the way up 45 deg, where the 4 tweeters would be in lst, with 3 dual LS mid/tweet drivers angled 45 towards ceiling, mounted vertically, taking advantage of the Ls dual driver's superior vertical dispersion, only on it's side so to speak, making for the same superior horizontal dispersion) borrowing Sony dolby enabled filter components, "borrowed" to provide additional immersive/height output, ( the front height channel is doubled in this case) (separate inputs in rear for the "height" segment, which includes a 10" woofer from a 302 mounted on top facing ceiling based on Allison 1-4 and his room boundary observations and the Allison 4 I own.). (Xo based on lst xo, component values adjusted for driver impedance.  Same xo points as lst.)

The forward facing panel, below the  angled dual driver, are a 303 mid and 303 tweet with a 12" 303 woofer in middle.  Side panels each have a 303 mid and tweeter each.

A client is borrowing the unit or pictures would be provided, as I believe he's deciding, per my suggestion, to commission me to follow-through and build 7 of my prototypes....its my belief that 5-7 of these in a room, (I forgot the best part, the 10π's woofer environmental controls ala transformer, are incorporated into forward facing 12", allowing for placement anywhere in room.

It is my belief based on the many atmos audio install mistakes, and lessons learned...that 5-7 of these, floor mounted (ceiling mounted is not joe six pack's forte and I'm looking to make this as user friendly and remove as much marketing gimmicky-ness as possible, reducing needed speakers to only 5-7 of my "lst/allison/dolby enabled hybrid prototype" once the dolby enabled aspect is tweaked such that actual ceiling mounted speakers are no different sounding than the dolby enabled ls dual drivers/ceiling facing 10". They should sound as if they were mounted on ceiling. Imo they do. Need to learn more about this tech though.

The two sections, height and forward, can be pushed by a single channel with terminal connector plates connecting "height channel" and "floor" channel can be isolated to respective channels.  Making it very flexible application wise.  All mids/tweeters in individual enclosures.  The entire speaker is like pushing a 9ls (12" and 10") 6 tweeters and 6mids total!  The volume of speaker is 5.25 cu.ft.  AS of course.  Utilizing deflective/reflective waves ala lst, model 28, (hope Dr. Bose's children don't sue me!! Ha).

I have applied for a patent, ( I freely cop to the inspirations this idea came from above, however, because it incorporates so many different  "ideas" and most importantly it takes those prior patents and applies them to a new tech, which the patent attorney I hired, says is the key part of patent law that might make my prototype a great candidate for a patent. Anyhow he's convinced Ill get the patent, but then he's supposed to tell me that, we'll see... still waiting word.

The idea of soundstage is not pertinent in an "immersive sound" format.  Allison,  the "lst king" is quoted as saying "live music is not heard from a single location where two sound sources intersect.  It's those waves bouncing all around us."

My conjecture is that Allison would be very excited should he have lived long enough to hear atmos audio.

-Scottie

 

[AR surround]

16 hours ago, bjmsam said:

That is wild.  Nicely done!  How far out of spec were the original BA caps you replaced?

Thanks.  I didn't check the BA caps; I preemptively replaced them in the A70's.  I believe that was a mistake and I should have kept the old gray unicons.  After recapping, I had to add 1/2 ohm resistance and a F&F bypass cap to get them to sound right.   Based on my experience with the A70's, I left the original caps in the A60's and A40.

 

7 hours ago, scottie munoz said:

My personal set up as it consists today is a 7.2.6, all 303 series/same era Nht.

302t x 2 fronts 

Lst/303/allison prototype center. (See bottom)

338 x2 rear Surr.

338 x2 side surround

218v x 6 ceiling height speakers

Nht 1259 woofer x1 ceiling mounted Infinite baffle, ( thus making ceiling channels "full range") ( attic)

Nht 1259 x1 woofer floor mounted (under my seat!) Infinite baffle (basement).

Do you have a pic you'd be willing to share?

[frankmarsi]

@ AR surround, this looks very nice and I'd no doubt enjoy checking out the sound you receive but, my curiosity is drawing me to the right hand side of the foto.

Is that an elaborate 'HO' set-up of trains there? If so, I can tell you that in and around the same early years of constructing my AR-3a set-up, I also was into HO trains.

I lost interest when I made a decision and delved into another hobby which led to something else longer term. At the time of the 'HO' days I was stock piling rolling stock and buildings, switches, etc.

When I was clearing out my family's home for sale, I learned that my father had cleaned out most of my collection of cars, buildings, and track. I was left very little of that hobby but, luckily I retained my 'hi-fi' stock as I moved that into Manhattan where he couldn't get to it. He considered music equipment valuable but, certainly not what he considered the toys of my train collection. Luckily, my "Lionel", "Berkshire" steam 'O' gauge set from 1962 was spared because it was safely hidden but, 90% of the H.O. stuff was tossed.

What's this thread about? All I know is I'm glad that I grew up in the years that I did as in my opinion current culture, music, etc. these days is pretty  much directionless.

""(One day, I'm going to replace all of the speakers with AR9's, including the five in the ceiling...🤣)""

Maybe I'll wait as I feel AR-9's in the ceiling might require a hard hat?

FM

 

 

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