AR-LST

[frankmarsi]

Can anyone accurately state if it is better to stack AR-LSTs head (top) to head or, bottom to head as most people would normally do?

If they're stacked head to head won't the bass response be lessened and the high end become 'beamy'? Any suggestions of wire manufacturers and makers of spade lugs? Would the advertised 'gold-plated' or steel be better?

Also, I've noticed AR speakers typically sound better with 18 to 12 gauge wire as compared to 8 gauge which is what I use and the sound seems to have 'thinned-out' and is less 'full-bodied' compared to when I've used 14 to 18 gauge. On my AR-3as its even more pronounced and they sound better with a thinner wire.

With the thinner wire I can actually use a fuse post, but when using thicker wire, its kind of difficult to utilize the full thickness of a heavier wire. Does anyone with personal experience realize which wire sounds best regarding the actual gauge, with out going into that ridiculous high priced esoteric stuff? I'm using two Phase Linear 400 amps, which electronically double their 200-watt per channel at 8 ohm rating to 400 watts per channel at 4 ohms, if that has anything to do with it.

Respectfully, Frank Marsi

frankmarsi@verizon.net

[dynaco_dan]

>Can anyone accurately state if it is better to stack AR-LSTs

>head (top) to head or, bottom to head as most people would

>normally do?

>If they're stacked head to head won't the bass response be

>lessened and the high end become 'beamy'? Any suggestions of

>wire manufacturers and makers of spade lugs? Would the

>advertised 'gold-plated' or steel be better?

>Also, I've noticed AR speakers typically sound better with 18

>to 12 gauge wire as compared to 8 gauge which is what I use

>and the sound seems to have 'thinned-out' and is less

>'full-bodied' compared to when I've used 14 to 18 gauge. On my

>AR-3as its even more pronounced and they sound better with a

>thinner wire.

>With the thinner wire I can actually use a fuse post, but when

>using thicker wire, its kind of difficult to utilize the full

>thickness of a heavier wire. Does anyone with personal

>experience realize which wire sounds best regarding the actual

>gauge, with out going into that ridiculous high priced

>esoteric stuff? I'm using two Phase Linear 400 amps, which

>electronically double their 200-watt per channel at 8 ohm

>rating to 400 watts per channel at 4 ohms, if that has

>anything to do with it.

>Respectfully, Frank Marsi

>frankmarsi@verizon.net

>

Hi Frank;

Happy New Years to you and yours.

The stacking of speakers whether AR-LST's or Larger Advents is tweeters to tweeters.

The bottom cabinets should be at least 10 - 12" above the floor.

When you ask about wire, I will assume that you have 2 wire lampcord in the different guages, dual parallel wires and not some multi-twisted special type.

You are better off with The Home Depot or equivalent 10 guage multi-stranded wire (Carol brand ?) which is translucent, not fancy, very soft and subtle, and being Scottish, very reasonable.

This a pair of oxy-free parallel wires which should be the same length.

I would go with the gold plated, definitely not steel, and you do not need to pay an arm and a leg for these.

Defintely the speakers will sound, "better", with the heaviest cable up to a point.

The improvements will be in primarily in the bass.

Fuse posts are a problem but manageable with solder and patience.

Way back when fuses were not usually used, there were articles about damping factor being affected by the resistance of the fuses as well as speaker line loss.

The slow blow fuses recommended by AR and Advent have a high resistance, compared to just straight wire), so there is a subtle affect in the bass region.

With original drivers not being readily available, and becoming more scarce as time goes along, fusing would seem very prudent.

I will suggest going to Crownaudio.com and read their technical papers on speaker power handling and fusing, for more insight and alternative fusing advice.

I read an older writing from AVA that, Polk made speaker wires that caused amps to go poof, if I remember correctly.

No details about why or when, definitely back in the '80's.

That may have been because of cable capacitance.

The Audio Amateur, if I remember correctly, had an article on speaker cables.

The end of the article suggested, buy multi-stranded ribbon wires, perhaps 20 wires, and pair up every second wire until you have 10 wires spliced together.

If need be, I can dig up the article to clarify details.

I cannot copy it to this site because of copyright issues.

That gives you a flat speaker cable.

An issue of this was, cable capacitance, of the many very expensive cables and how each affectd the sound or even made amplifiers oscillate and be unstable.

I will be writing more about this in the next short while, along with additional new but old information I came across, on speaker fusing.

Don't run out and buy super glitzy speaker cables for now at least.

Poor you, only 2 pair of LST's, and only 2 Phase Linear 400's. lol

Santa must like you, Frank.

Good luck and thanks for the topic.

[Guest dogmeninreno]

>Can anyone accurately state if it is better to stack AR-LSTs

>head (top) to head or, bottom to head as most people would

>normally do?

>If they're stacked head to head won't the bass response be

>lessened and the high end become 'beamy'? Any suggestions of

>wire manufacturers and makers of spade lugs? Would the

>advertised 'gold-plated' or steel be better?

>Also, I've noticed AR speakers typically sound better with 18

>to 12 gauge wire as compared to 8 gauge which is what I use

>and the sound seems to have 'thinned-out' and is less

>'full-bodied' compared to when I've used 14 to 18 gauge. On my

>AR-3as its even more pronounced and they sound better with a

>thinner wire.

>With the thinner wire I can actually use a fuse post, but when

>using thicker wire, its kind of difficult to utilize the full

>thickness of a heavier wire. Does anyone with personal

>experience realize which wire sounds best regarding the actual

>gauge, with out going into that ridiculous high priced

>esoteric stuff? I'm using two Phase Linear 400 amps, which

>electronically double their 200-watt per channel at 8 ohm

>rating to 400 watts per channel at 4 ohms, if that has

>anything to do with it.

>Respectfully, Frank Marsi

>frankmarsi@verizon.net

>

The Phase Linears IMO are fine but if not rebuilt, the 4 ohm load is hard for them to cope with and with the 2 4 onm loads be sure to fuse them in addition to Carvers fuses in the 400. This comes from experience and you need the additional fusing or as the Aussies say..Flame Linear ..

Stacking 2 sets of LST,s is a personal choice and depends on your room acoustics.

I usually stack them with woofer to woofer..Same as I do on the AR3a,s

[frankmarsi]

Vern and dogmeninreno, hey, it's me Frank, we've spoken before, Happy New Year to both of you.

To Vern; yes 'poor' me, but working with 4 AR-LST’s is much like it was for in the mid 80s with my 2 Buick Riviera’s, a constant rebuilding of stuff, restoring and up keep, but it was worth every moment for the absolute pleasure of driving those cars and listening to these speakers. But they’re both like an old house can be, always something to do until it’s finished, but it’s always ‘work in progress’. Believe me rebuilding these speakers is time consuming, but nonetheless lots of fun as any hobby should be. I appreciate your reply as always, but it's not clear to me to stay with 8 gauge generic copper wires, or reduce the diameter to 14 or 16 gauge. You mentioned the 'heavier the wire the better, up to a point', but up to what point do my returns diminish by causing some problems with the amps with capacitance, etc? And yes I know the gold spades would be better, I stand corrected, it was a dumb statement I made earlier, but good spades are not that cheap, any suggestions? Fuses are my next concern, I’ve never blown the still original 2 amp fuse that’s mounted in these speakers, but I have blown many a tweeter, but never a mid-range, or woofer. So, would it be advisable to retain the large AR fuse and still use another fuse before it. Then what size fuse to protect the tweeters? I’ve been to the ‘Crown’ site you mentioned once before, but they’re saying to mount a 11/4 amp fuse like I had done 30 years ago with my AR-3a’s and that isn’t enough to do high volume listening as I often do. So I’m stumped here. Like I said earlier, I’m certain I realized an over all more robust sound with thinner wire, but maybe I’m nuts?

To dogmeninreno; my Phase Linear 400s’ are mostly rebuilt and I’m using factory fans to keep them cool running at high volumes and shut the fans off when I’m doing casual low level listening. Using a separate amp for each set of speakers allows both amps to cruise easily and not strain as the ‘spl’ is increased naturally with 4 LSTs’ going, but when I get ‘crazy-loud’ the fans are switched on, but even then they’re not being pushed too much. Of course I’ve heard all of the bad words about my so-called ‘stringent’, harsh sounding 70s’ transistor amps, but in their defense I must say they’re not as bad as some would have you believe, in fact they’re great sounding and after moderately loud level listening and ‘cooking’ for 3 or so hours, they’re as sweet sounding as any amp could be. Besides with AR speakers, they’re a perfect visual match.

As far as the speakers I’ve read that having then ‘foot-to-head’ sort of speak causes a ‘smearing’ of both the bass and the high end. Do you have any familiarity with this possibility? I’ve never really ever discerned this smearing of sound yet, have you? Maybe it’s better to set them up having the tweeters in he middle and the woofers both on top and at the bottom, it just seems more logical. Might you have any thoughts on possible fusing suggestions in response to what I mentioned in my first post? Any input regarding wires?

To both men: I’m only going back and forth like this so maybe ‘banging-heads’ will bring out some decisive conclusions. I’ve read so much on ‘esoteric’ cables since they emerged in the early eighties, my head is spinning as I constantly seek out more articles. There are so many opinions I’ve read from both scientists and audiophiles alike and there never seems to be a clear-cut answer, unless you have the money to burn, and then it shouldn’t matter. Some assert it’s simple sales hype. As with a car’s battery thicker cable is better, but stereo amps don’t venture in that area of such high amperage in driving speakers, at least not with a load such as a DC motor does.

Thanks for your replies,

Frank Marsi

[dynaco_dan]

Hi again Frank;

Best of the New Year to you and yours, Frank.

I am going to respond to you by sections.

Vern and dogmeninreno, hey, it's me Frank, we've spoken

>before, Happy New Year to both of you.

>To Vern; yes 'poor' me, but working with 4 AR-LST’s is much

>like it was for in the mid 80s with my 2 Buick Riviera’s, a

>constant rebuilding of stuff, restoring and up keep, but it

>was worth every moment for the absolute pleasure of driving

>those cars and listening to these speakers. But they’re both

>like an old house can be, always something to do until it’s

>finished, but it’s always ‘work in progress’. Believe me

>rebuilding these speakers is time consuming, but nonetheless

>lots of fun as any hobby should be. I appreciate your reply as

>always, but it's not clear

I believe that the 10 guage Carol? brand wire at The Home Depot or equivalent is about the heaviest copper multi-strand, parallel, flexible, translucent and readily available copper wire at a reaonable price.

After seeing what the new and improved speaker surround material (foam) they started using, I don't know the life expectancy of the wire insulation is under normal use.

If I go back to my very first system, I was handed by the salesman, about 50' of stranded wire, not much larger than telephone wire, and the saleman made me feel like he was my hero.

That wire was maybe 25 guage stranded, if that.

Wire is sized for our purposes from this 10 guage to 18 guage which is the wire gets smaller as the number gets bigger, confusing?

AR sold speaker wires with coloured ends, I never did see any, to match the colour coded heads of their amplifiers speaker terminal screw heads.

I believe it was 18 or maybe even 16 guage.

Sidetrack topic

Lampcord is 18 guage wire parallel wire and has a current carrying capacity of, I am guessing now, maybe 2 - 3 amps AC, perhaps more.

I was just reminding myself of the 100' lawn mower cords sold everywhere that are, I believe 18 guage and rated for 10 amps, I believe.

Check out the ends of the cords for heat after cutting your lawn with a 13 - 15 amp lawnmower.

Back to subject

They used to write back in the old days about limiting the length to 50 feet or so long per speaker.

This was before research was done regarding line loss, fuse loading effect, loss of damping for the woofers.

If you talk to an old timer electrician and ask about line loss in regards to AC electricity.

Electrical wholesalers would have this information I am sure.

I don't know who came up with the very first, "IMPROVED", speaker cables.

Sidetrack topic

I will be writing shortly about an interesting capacitance issue with the, "SPECIAL", speaker cables.

This is old but interesting reading to be sure.

Back to topic

I think any of us would have been excited to have someone tell us that, if we bought this magic cable, we would now have the equal of AR-LST's, when we clearly owned much inferior speakers.

This concept has been going on for hundres of years, I believe they used to call it

>to me to stay with 8 gauge generic copper wires, or reduce the

>diameter to 14 or 16 gauge. You mentioned the 'heavier the

>wire the better, up to a point', but up to what point do my

>returns diminish by causing some problems with the amps with

>capacitance, etc? And yes I know the gold spades would be

>better, I stand corrected, it was a dumb statement I made

>earlier, but good spades are not that cheap, any suggestions?

No dumb questions or statements from anyone just a good question, Frank.

I would suggest banana plugs, run around $3 - 5.00 each.

>Fuses are my next concern, I’ve never blown the still original

>2 amp fuse that’s mounted in these speakers,

but I have blown many a tweeter, but never a mid-range, or woofer.

The 2 amp FNM slow blow fuse was AR's recommended size and we are stuck with the fuseholder clip sizes.

From the Crown Audio's website you can see that they recommend a slow blow fuse for the woofer and fast blow for the uppers.

Obviously we would need the existing fuseholder for the woofer and add a open style fuseholder for the fast blow ones.

I don't think to many members want to go into their enclosures and start cutting and routing wires out the rear of their enclosures.

My recommendation would be in a perfect world, a slow blow fuseholder that doesn't require $5.00 fuses, would control solely the woofer.

Another open style fuseholder for fast blow fuses for the mids separate from the tweeters, and for the tweeters another one.

Because each driver set draws a different load they would be better protected this way, in my opinion.

As you can see that's a lot of work.

There is members that do not believe in or use fuses.

With the original OEM drivers not being made and their supply getting slimmer, a fuse is prudent.

The original 2 amp fuse shows that it didn't protect your tweeters.

But, the AR-LST's, like all hifi speakers, were not meant to blow your socks off.

I have used a 1 amp fast blow fuse for all of my speakers for decades now, and, in addition the LST's have their 2 amp fuse as well.

I do on occasion blow a 1 amp fuse, and yes I am sure I can go to a higher rated fuse but I have a supply of 1 amp fuses and I don't listen as loudly as I once did.

Please see the, "other", forum regarding my write-up about fast blow fuses and I refer to the Dynaco 416 manual for fuse sizing.

So, would it

>be advisable to retain the large AR fuse and still use another

>fuse before it. Then what size fuse to protect the tweeters?

>I’ve been to the ‘Crown’ site you mentioned once before, but

>they’re saying to mount a 11/4 amp fuse like I had done 30

>years ago with my AR-3a’s and that isn’t enough to do high

>volume listening as I often do.

A sidetrack again

The Heathkit Heath/AR AS-103 speaker system, was an AR-3A speaker system, in kit form, and used a supplied 3 amp fast blow fuse in a chassis style fuseholder, chassis type is bad for retaining heat.

So I’m stumped here. Like I

>said earlier, I’m certain I realized an over all more robust

>sound with thinner wire, but maybe I’m nuts?

I am sure this is a capacitance effect.

>To dogmeninreno; my Phase Linear 400s’ are mostly rebuilt and

>I’m using factory fans to keep them cool running at high

>volumes and shut the fans off when I’m doing casual low level

>listening. Using a separate amp for each set of speakers

>allows both amps to cruise easily and not strain as the ‘spl’

>is increased naturally with 4 LSTs’ going, but when I get

>‘crazy-loud’ the fans are switched on, but even then they’re

>not being pushed too much.

I believe the LST's go up to about 35 - 40 ohms near resonace.

They drop to around 2 1/2 ohms at the lowest.

With you running a pair of LST's from one amp, as long as the amp was designed to run speakers under 4 ohms, youshould not have a problem.

Of course I’ve heard all of the bad

>words about my so-called ‘stringent’, harsh sounding 70s’

>transistor amps, but in their defense I must say they’re not

>as bad as some would have you believe, in fact they’re great

>sounding and after moderately loud level listening and

Cooking the speakers you are.

>‘cooking’ for 3 or so hours, they’re as sweet sounding as any

>amp could be. Besides with AR speakers, they’re a perfect

>visual match.

>As far as the speakers I’ve read that having then

>‘foot-to-head’ sort of speak causes a ‘smearing’ of both the

>bass and the high end. Do you have any familiarity with this

>possibility? I’ve never really ever discerned this smearing of

>sound yet, have you? Maybe it’s better to set them up having

>the tweeters in he middle and the woofers both on top and at

>the bottom, it just seems more logical. Might you have any

>thoughts on possible fusing suggestions in response to what I

>mentioned in my first post? Any input regarding wires?

I did not invent the tweeters to tweeters position, it was done by the audio reviewer at, HIFI Newsletter, back in ? year.

See the Advent library for the Advent manual and it includes the review of the Double Advents.

They didn't invent it either, they heard it at a stereo store, they just made it more publicly known.

>

>To both men: I’m only going back and forth like this so maybe

>‘banging-heads’ will bring out some decisive conclusions. I’ve

>read so much on ‘esoteric’ cables since they emerged in the

>early eighties, my head is spinning as I constantly seek out

>more articles. There are so many opinions I’ve read from both

>scientists and audiophiles alike and there never seems to be a

>clear-cut answer, unless you have the money to burn, and then

>it shouldn’t matter. Some assert it’s simple sales hype. As

>with a car’s battery thicker cable is better, but stereo amps

>don’t venture in that area of such high amperage in driving

>speakers, at least not with a load such as a DC motor does.

>Thanks for your replies,

>Frank Marsi

>

There is no one on this site that will agree with everything I have said here, in fact there will be other opinions I am sure, which they will express.

Six of one and half a dozen of another.

I have learned a lot from the internet and particularly from this website and all members that answer or ask questions.

I am still learning after all my years of this hobby, Frank.

Good luck, Frank.

[Pete B]

Hi Frank,

There actually is a good reason why thin wire, and for some tube amps would sound better with AR speakers. Not that a tube amp or thin wire is the only way, one could use a high damping factor amp, thick wire, and add a .1 to 1 ohm power resistor to get the similar results.

I mentioned in another thread that the woofer lowpass, and midrange high pass have high Q in the crossover causing a small amount of peaking. This high Q results from about .7 ohms in the inductor, and perhaps .2 to .5 ohms of ESR in the caps, so adding .2 to .5 ohms of wire resistance is a significant difference, much more so than compared to the 4 ohm system impedance. These are all series resonant circuits and higher source impedance lowers their too high Q smoothing out the response a bit.

Now on the low bass side, we saw that often there is too much damping or the Q is too low, and as a result the output at Fc (should be 41 Hz) is too low. The woofer resonance is a parallel resonance and it's Q goes up with higher source impedance offering a bit more low bass. You seem to win all around with thin wire and vintage AR speakers.

There is no way your going to select a fuse that will pass enough power for the woofer and protect the tweeter at the same time. The only way to do it if you really want to use fuses is to have another fuse dedicated to the tweeters. You might start with .5 amp but might have to go to 1 amp if it blows at high levels.

You seem to know a lot about the Phase Linears, good that you had them gone over being so old.

Happy New Year and all the best to you Frank!

Pete B.

[frankmarsi]

Thank you, thank you!

Vern, thanks for your quick reply. I am gratefully and happy that anyone would answer my topic, but I also hope I did not confuse issues here.

I get the feeling you’re using the same generic, low -cost wire I use, correct me if I’m wrong. It just made sense for me to use a heavier wire and at a reasonable price. Thanks for what I may believe is an acknowledgement of my concerns. To move on with all respects to the apparent and welcome ‘thunder’ Vern has displayed. with all due respects Vern, I think you’re a fireball.

To: Peter B. It seems that maybe I’m on to something here talking about wire and fuses. I’m feeling I may be correct about thinner wire (12-18 gauge) working best with vintage AR speakers, or so I get the impression from your response. I’d like to read more of what you’ve got to say, you also Vern, the appreciated and always present first responder, thanks for your attention. I must state though that the Phase Linear 400 amplifiers have a rated 1000-damping factor. In 1974 when I bought my first Phase Linear, that figure was noted as having the best electrical control of a woofer in terms of bass and control of the ever mighty AR 12 inch woofer. Few if any amps even approach that number today, if it actual means what Phase Linear advertised to mean, I’m glad to own one. I’m not a full-blown electrical tech, merely 1/16th blown, so please read me with a ‘grain-of-salt’.

To all out there, do the AR’s sound better with thinner wire?

It’s late, I have to go to my mundane new job tomorrow, and I hope to continue tomorrow after I digest this fiery subject. In closing I say YES!, let’s not seem like the ‘laid back’, muted and understated group that AR speakers were once referred to and as being in the 1960s’ and 1970s’, when most owners always knew these speakers were really being the most accurate sound reproducers ever produced in the last 100 years.. What a glorious start to the New Year, bang, wow and all that good stuff, let’s add some gusto going on to this site and start off with some energy! Hell it might even get such ‘big-wigs’ like “Ster-o-file” to review more great vintage gear and get off their ‘high horse’, or even start up some past notables like “Stereo Review”, High Fidelity” or even “Audio” magazine to restart! I might be feeling delusional; even make the current electronics world to be sensible in their products and emulate the great speakers of the past 40 years.

Frank Marsi

[dynaco_dan]

>Thank you, thank you!

>Vern, thanks for your quick reply. I am gratefully and happy

>that anyone would answer my topic, but I also hope I did not

>confuse issues here.

>I get the feeling you’re using the same generic, low -cost

>wire I use, correct me if I’m wrong. It just made sense for me

>to use a heavier wire and at a reasonable price. Thanks for

>what I may believe is an acknowledgement of my concerns. To

>move on with all respects to the apparent and welcome

>‘thunder’ Vern has displayed. with all due respects Vern, I

>think you’re a fireball.

The wire I am suggesting is, I believe, made by the company named Carol, and it is probably not carried by any hifi stores, for all intent and purpose it may be generic.

To run 2 separate 10 guage wires individually, and not benear each other, would probably pick up RF.

This product does not have silver, teflon, gold plating, platinum, shielded, center core with multi-stranded spirals and is not twisted by hand by a solo Klingon warrior who learned the way of the land as it was passed down to him for the last 1500 years.

Only handmade on a sunday under moonlight from a blue moon facing the far north on the back of a Yak facing backwards.

It is too cheap for the hifi stores, I believe, poor markup, would you spend $65,000.00 on a pair of speakers and then go to The Home depot for wire.

I think not.

Might as well spend another $5 - 10,000.00 on brand name glitzy wire too.

Let's see which company has the nicest colour ad? MMMMMM

Now if one reads the classified ads in Stereophile magazine about now, you will probably start seeing all the high end cables that weren't high enough since they were opened for Christmas and are now up for sale.

As a final comment, I believe AR used a Dynaco tube amp when they first developed the AR-1 speaker system.

If I remember correctly, the comment was an amplifier with a damping factor of more than 5 was not necessary.

They never had a chance of knowing the difference without having a Phase Linear 700 or Crown DC-300 kicking butt to try.

I'll take the Pepsi challenge any day.

I'm digital now, Frank, I carry my own Energizer battery pack now.

>

>To: Peter B. It seems that maybe I’m on to something here

>talking about wire and fuses. I’m feeling I may be correct

>about thinner wire (12-18 gauge) working best with vintage AR

>speakers, or so I get the impression from your response. I’d

>like to read more of what you’ve got to say, you also Vern,

>the appreciated and always present first responder, thanks for

>your attention. I must state though that the Phase Linear 400

>amplifiers have a rated 1000-damping factor. In 1974 when I

>bought my first Phase Linear, that figure was noted as having

>the best electrical control of a woofer in terms of bass and

>control of the ever mighty AR 12 inch woofer. Few if any amps

>even approach that number today, if it actual means what Phase

>Linear advertised to mean, I’m glad to own one. I’m not a

>full-blown electrical tech, merely 1/16th blown, so please

>read me with a ‘grain-of-salt’.

>To all out there, do the AR’s sound better with thinner wire?

>It’s late, I have to go to my mundane new job tomorrow, and I

>hope to continue tomorrow after I digest this fiery subject.

>In closing I say YES!, let’s not seem like the ‘laid back’,

>muted and understated group that AR speakers were once

>referred to and as being in the 1960s’ and 1970s’, when most

>owners always knew these speakers were really being the most

>accurate sound reproducers ever produced in the last 100

>years.. What a glorious start to the New Year, bang, wow and

>all that good stuff, let’s add some gusto going on to this

>site and start off with some energy! Hell it might even get

>such ‘big-wigs’ like “Ster-o-file” to review more great

>vintage gear and get off their ‘high horse’, or even start up

>some past notables like “Stereo Review”, High Fidelity” or

>even “Audio” magazine to restart! I might be feeling

>delusional; even make the current electronics world to be

>sensible in their products and emulate the great speakers of

>the past 40 years.

>Frank Marsi

>

[Guest MPPurcell]

I didn't have the slightest idea what you guys were talking about with "stacking speakers", although in the past I have sometimes used more than one set of speakers (in front). They weren't necessarily the same type of speaker (anathema?), and one pair was normally set up to dominate in volume. In any case, you made me dig a little on the internet, so I came across the article on double Advents I think you referenced, Vern.

>I did not invent the tweeters to tweeters position, it was

>done by the audio reviewer at, HIFI Newsletter, back in ?

>year.

>

>See the Advent library for the Advent manual and it includes

>the review of the Double Advents.

According to what I found it was a mag called The Absolute Sound that told the story in 1973 in their first issue, and reprinted it again for their 30th Anniversary issue (must be 2003).

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/3...ble_advent.html

Michael

[dynaco_dan]

>I didn't have the slightest idea what you guys were talking

>about with "stacking speakers", although in the past I have

>sometimes used more than one set of speakers (in front). They

>weren't necessarily the same type of speaker (anathema?), and

>one pair was normally set up to dominate in volume. In any

>case, you made me dig a little on the internet, so I came

>across the article on double Advents I think you referenced,

>Vern.

>

>>I did not invent the tweeters to tweeters position, it was

>>done by the audio reviewer at, HIFI Newsletter, back in ?

>>year.

>>

>>See the Advent library for the Advent manual and it includes

>>the review of the Double Advents.

>

>According to what I found it was a mag called The Absolute

>Sound that told the story in 1973 in their first issue, and

>reprinted it again for their 30th Anniversary issue (must be

>2003).

>

>http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/3...ble_advent.html

>

>Michael

>

Hi Michael;

The stacking I was referring to was, I was wrong, you are correct, it is The Absolute Sound review I was trying to remember, that is in our library under Advent/Brochure describing the Advent, Smaller, Etc.

That isn't a good clear copy but the link you gave us is, thank you.

Since I first came to this site, I have read of several members who have stacked AR-LST's as well as the Advents.

The tweeters are in all cases together, as opposed to woofers together.

The enclosures should be at least 12" above the floor.

This stacking has not been mentioned with any other mentionable speaker systems that I have read about.

It must work for other systems as well though.

The speakers must be identical models.

I believe that one member has 4 Larger Advents per channel as well.

Thank you again, Michael.

[frankmarsi]

Vern, you're on the money again. I have the 8 gauge 'Carol' wires and after 15 years they are starting to show green discoloration at the solderd spade ends. Which spades can you recommend as I may need to re-do all connections to them and new spades would be nice. Can you suggestion a manufacturer of fuse posts and what size for each LST. Then what mount them to the back of each enclosure with an easy to get at position?

All input is appreciated, thank in advance.

frankmarsi@verizon.net

[dynaco_dan]

>Vern, you're on the money again. I have the 8 gauge 'Carol'

>wires and after 15 years they are starting to show green

>discoloration at the solderd spade ends. Which spades can you

>recommend as I may need to re-do all connections to them and

>new spades would be nice. Can you suggestion a manufacturer of

>fuse posts and what size for each LST. Then what mount them to

>the back of each enclosure with an easy to get at position?

>All input is appreciated, thank in advance.

>frankmarsi@verizon.net

Hi Frank;

I should buy a lottery ticket now.

The green, "Patene" is probably copper oxide from the flux reacting with the copper wire and maybe the brass, tin plated, connector.

How is the insulation?

Is it cracking or less flexible?

I would cut back about 12" +/- from one wire end, the wire with the rib on its side, is a great identifier.

Use this short one end for a fuseholder.

I believe the original fuseholder was a Bussmann 4421 open style fuseholder for the FNM slow blow fuses which is large in size.

If you are thinking of going to use a fast blow fuse, Radio Shack probably has brass or equal open style fuse holders for the 1/4" x 1 1/4" fast blow fuses.

Just solder, use Rosin core solder or equal, the shorter wire (hot or +) to one end of the fuseholder and the 12" stub to the other end.

Carefully stripping and soldering will allow for a good connection.

You can do this at the amp or speaker end, whichever is more convenient.

Amp brand, made in the USA, were the very best electrical connectors years ago, expensive but very good.

Unless they have made theirs of steel now.

Some other member may have other suggestions on these.

You don't need to fasten the fuseholder to anything, but it can't short against anything else, especially metal.

Fuse size will be a close guess, maybe.

Remember that Heathkit Heath/AR AS-103, an AR-3A equivalent, was supplied with a chassis style fuseholder and a 3 amp fast blow fuse.

AR recommended a 1 1/4 amp FNM slow blow fuse for the AR-3A speaker system, if I remember correctly.

The LST was issued with 2 amp FNM slow blow fuses.

I will assume that a 3 amp fast blow would be a safe starting point for the LST.

Remember that we should be lower in fuse size than whatever was an acceptable fuse size when the speaker drivers were new 25+ years ago.

Please, definitely wait, for others to agree or disagree with my decision before running out and buying a brick of fuses.

CAUTION***********************************CAUTION

I am now having my reservations about the fuse sizing, you like the music loud, and the tweeters may still be harmed, which is still my main major concern.

Best wait for further technical members to respond.

Good luck again, Frank.

[Guest Bret]

Frank,

Just another data-point for you to consider. The great thing about either banana plugs (which I don't think will work on your LSTs, will they?) or just plain-ol' wire is that ocassionally you can clip off the ends and get a "brand new" connection in no-time.

Frankly, I don't think my ears are that good, but when they get ugly it makes me feel better to clip and strip.

Oh, about wire size. . . It wasn't until I got AR-9s and a monster amp that I felt like I needed huge wire. "Monster Cable" was a new thing back then, you remember. I probably over-did it back then, but the only place I noticed any substantial difference in "sound" was in the extreme bass and the effect wasn't like adding a woofer, but it did make the rumble seem better controlled.

Back then my speaker wire looked like suspension-bridge cable. It had to be physically bent flat against the floor. I had to change my pants more than once when the guy down the street was firing-up his CB and linear. It sounded like the cops were in the house with a bullhorn. If Monster Brand Cable was good then this re-bar had to be better. I think I was paying almost $2.00/ft for this stuff when $2.00 would have bought an expensive cigar, or a six-back of Heinis, or both.

These days I just use 14 gauge (from Home Depot) and short runs for 12" models and anything with a 10" or 8" woofer gets 18 gauge. Why? Just because I feel like the current demands ought to be less and it strikes me as silly to have wire running to a speaker that's heavier than the speaker itself.

BTW - there is an article that I've pointed-to before about before on Nelson Pass's website talking about some amplifiers being "fixed" by using narrow-gauge wire on them.

In fact, you ought to just make the following link a regular stop for some reading material if you don't already:

http://www.passlabs.com/articles.htm

The one you might want to read in particular is:

http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

And there is another authoritative assertion offered by our own contributing member and all-round good-guy, Ken Kantor, who also has the experience and expertise to be believed (and communicates quickly and clearly):

http://www.aural.org/audio/misc_info/Wire_We_Here.pdf

I spent many, many, many years in front of 3a's on 30-40' runs of 18 gauge wire. Sounded fine to me. A buddy of mine recently had some esoteric cables and they sounded like they were made of specially excreted something, maybe ferrous, maybe not. . . He thought they were "great" for a short time. He doesn't have them anymore. Yuck.

I'm still seriously jealous. Phase 400s and stacked LSTs. . . like a Mercedes 300SL, it doesn't even have to do anything, it's about as cool as it gets even when it's just sitting there. (I was going to say "turned off", but the meter lights have to burn for the full effect.)

Bret

PS - the "edit" is my correcting the word "other" to "another."

[frankmarsi]

>Frank,

>

>Just another data-point for you to consider. The great thing

>about either banana plugs (which I don't think will work on

>your LSTs, will they?) or just plain-ol' wire is that

>ocassionally you can clip off the ends and get a "brand new"

>connection in no-time.

>

>Frankly, I don't think my ears are that good, but when they

>get ugly it makes me feel better to clip and strip.

>

>Oh, about wire size. . . It wasn't until I got AR-9s and a

>monster amp that I felt like I needed huge wire. "Monster

>Cable" was a new thing back then, you remember. I probably

>over-did it back then, but the only place I noticed any

>substantial difference in "sound" was in the extreme bass and

>the effect wasn't like adding a woofer, but it did make the

>rumble seem better controlled.

>

>Back then my speaker wire looked like suspension-bridge cable.

> It had to be physically bent flat against the floor. I had

>to change my pants more than once when the guy down the street

>was firing-up his CB and linear. It sounded like the cops

>were in the house with a bullhorn. If Monster Brand Cable was

>good then this re-bar had to be better. I think I was paying

>almost $2.00/ft for this stuff when $2.00 would have bought an

>expensive cigar, or a six-back of Heinis, or both.

>

>These days I just use 14 gauge (from Home Depot) and short

>runs for 12" models and anything with a 10" or 8" woofer gets

>18 gauge. Why? Just because I feel like the current demands

>ought to be less and it strikes me as silly to have wire

>running to a speaker that's heavier than the speaker itself.

>

>BTW - there is an article that I've pointed-to before about

>before on Nelson Pass's website talking about some amplifiers

>being "fixed" by using narrow-gauge wire on them.

>

>In fact, you ought to just make the following link a regular

>stop for some reading material if you don't already:

>

>http://www.passlabs.com/articles.htm

>

>The one you might want to read in particular is:

>

>http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

>

>And there is another authoritative assertion offered by our

>own contributing member and all-round good-guy, Ken Kantor,

>who also has the experience and expertise to be believed (and

>communicates quickly and clearly):

>

>http://www.aural.org/audio/misc_info/Wire_We_Here.pdf

>

>I spent many, many, many years in front of 3a's on 30-40' runs

>of 18 gauge wire. Sounded fine to me. A buddy of mine

>recently had some esoteric cables and they sounded like they

>were made of specially excreted something, maybe ferrous,

>maybe not. . . He thought they were "great" for a short time.

> He doesn't have them anymore. Yuck.

>

>I'm still seriously jealous. Phase 400s and stacked LSTs. . .

>like a Mercedes 300SL, it doesn't even have to do anything,

>it's about as cool as it gets even when it's just sitting

>there. (I was going to say "turned off", but the meter lights

>have to burn for the full effect.)

>

>Bret

>

>PS - the "edit" is my correcting the word "other" to

>"another."

Vern, Bret, and all who have responded, where do I actually begin about now and the past? So here goes, I’ll try to be brief, but you all are asking a lot from me, as my story is long.

In 1970 when I was stationed at the US Navy’s ‘moth ball fleet’ my duty company and I were dutiful asked to keep the then not in service in “Nam” sister ships to the” Missouri”, the USS “Iowa” and “Wisconsin” battle ships and many heavy and light duty WW2 cruisers and many, many destroyers, destroyer escorts and Mine Layers and support ships in shape for any required 6 month over haul period and then restored back into ‘service ships’ at a moments notice. These monothic, magnificitant beauties were only 20 or so years into ‘decommissioned status’ after the big war, almost ready to go into battle if need be, ready by any stretch to be again ships of war on a global level.

Talking about the battle wagons Wisconsin and Iowa with their nine (9) sixteen (16) inch main battery guns and 20-5inch guns, and 40 or more 20 and 40 mm anti-aircraft guns, were almost forgotten relics from a bad time on earth and they all had to be prevented from rusting as they all sat in a Philly, brackish-salt water shipyard, all 130 of these various ships.

When I had my first of countless opportunities to go aboard and prepare and help these ships from rusting, I went below decks and saw all of the wiring and to see the main nine 16 inch main guns and their related wiring. Having been trained in interior communications, and ’salt water desalination’ for drinking water and ‘turbine’ use and cooling, with further learning of gyrocompasses, main steering controls, gun-control, and all main communications, radio and whatever controls necessary to operate a 45 thousand ton -plus,  900 foot battlewagon made of US steel, and all should understand that steel was steel back then, was the best we had to offer. I saw the main cables from the main ‘fire-control’ to the main turrets below decks. I was more than overwhelmed to speak mildly! Well I’m not exaggerating when I tell all of you that these cables ranged from one to 3 inches thick at the main turrets for the operation of these sixteen (16 inch diameter projectile) monsters, all nine (9) of them. Hey, the Navy Dept. may come after me for disclosing this info (what could I loose too, maybe Ge--y Spr—ger, National News or the Inqu--er?). But these monsters had to have heavy cabling to operate, especially in death and life at all and any cost battles. At over 40 feet wide at the weather deck and over 50 feet the turret alone, there was a 102 foot beam for the battle-ships, one could not imagine using a thinner cable.

I didn’t do this only once, but almost on a daily basis.

It was then that I realized the need for cable needed to do a certain level of duty and hard use, yeah, such as world war.

So when I drive four (4) AR-LSTs’ with two (2) Phase Linear 400 amps, I kind of feel 10 gauge wire is needed to do the job, but when as I recall driving two (2) AR-3a’s in my 35 by 25 foot main shooting area photo studio (1200 sq. ft) to please all of the F__d and other top named agency models to a professional level while shooting photographs of them to please my commercial clients at the time. 

But, why do I clamor about using thinner wires? Well I recall exchanging wires back then from 18 gauge to 16 gauge made a difference in the bass sound and over-all robust sound of my AR-3a’s. At the time I felt maybe my big head was already going delusional at 30 years old, but I swear there was a difference in the sound with 50-foot runs (per side) of wiring, using a single Phase Linear 400 amp.

P.S. Before the government comes to press charges of improper disclosure on my bald little head, please, someone tell me if it’s true about heavy versus thinner raw copper cable?

Frank Marsi

P.S. Remember, you knew me before my up coming incarceration.

P.S.2 Can anyone please send me at least a cassette player?

[Guest Bret]

>P.S. Before the government comes to press charges of improper disclosure on my bald little head, please, someone tell me if it’s true about heavy versus thinner raw copper cable?<

If what, specifically, is true?

That you heard a difference? Yeah, you probably did. But I wonder if someone secretly *removed* the difference while you were asleep, if you'd notice.

Bret

[frankmarsi]

>>P.S. Before the government comes to press charges of

>improper disclosure on my bald little head, please, someone

>tell me if it’s true about heavy versus thinner raw copper

>cable?<

>

>If what, specifically, is true?

>

>That you heard a difference? Yeah, you probably did. But I

>wonder if someone secretly *removed* the difference while you

>were asleep, if you'd notice.

>

>Bret

Good point Bret, I am a heavy sleeper. But to be honest I dread moving those heavy speakers around so many times. As dense as my head is I'm under the impression that 8 to 10 gauge wire is better for bass as you stated earlier and that there may be an actual difference. Personally I should take a vacation for a while and give myself a break from all this stuff.Thanks for your patience Bret and Vern.

FM

[Pete B]

>>Frank,

but I swear there was a

>difference in the sound with 50-foot runs (per side) of

>wiring, using a single Phase Linear 400 amp.

Frank, I stated that resistance was the main difference in wire and you will certainly hear a difference between 8 and 14 to 16 gauge wire especially with 50 ft runs. 50 ft is LONG!

Heavy wire will tighten up the bass, but for people who want "more" bass thiner wire will help.

Pete B.

[Guest Bret]

>Good point Bret, I am a heavy sleeper.<

LOL - I should have known I had to word things very carefully!

Bret