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Capacitor Myths


Pete B

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Somehow, the capacitor and speaker cable magic hangs on. Now, the designer cable fraud continues whenever you buy a computer or home theater audio or video cord. High priced HDMI, optic audio cables, printer cables, etc. are aggressively pushed at the retail level, and often the customer spends the extra cash.

Business is business,,, if someone is prepared to pay extra money for off the self part with new logo or part number silk screened on it, sometimes even with 100% original look, this can be considered nice business opportunity.

The following example is probably not the first capacitor fraud, but it may be familiar to you. 4,00 USD of 1977 money for 5UF/50V NPE is substantial investment in audio. This is probably close to 40,00 USD in 2015 terms for ordinary NPE without AR logo or part number on the cap.

ar_parts_packet_august_1-15.jpeg

Best Regards

Kimmo

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When you look at today's prices for NPE (Parts Exp. for example), it seems economies of scale and technology have come a long way in reducing the cost to produce and the final price of these items.

The list in the above post is interesting in some respects relative to today's price differentials between NPE of X uF and 10X uF. The T.A. list shows $2 for a 4 uF cap and a meager price increase to $2.75 for a 40 uF.

Today's 4 uF NPE runs about 50 cents and a paralleled 33 uF and 6.8 uF, to get to a similar ~10X = $1.48.

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Business is business,,, if someone is prepared to pay extra money for off the self part with new logo or part number silk screened on it, sometimes even with 100% original look, this can be considered nice business opportunity.

The following example is probably not the first capacitor fraud, but it may be familiar to you. 4,00 USD of 1977 money for 5UF/50V NPE is substantial investment in audio. This is probably close to 40,00 USD in 2015 terms for ordinary NPE without AR logo or part number on the cap.

ar_parts_packet_august_1-15.jpeg

Best Regards

Kimmo

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

A $4 part in 1977 would be $15 and change today.

Explain to me why these cables are worth over $3000..............really

http://www.douglasconnection.com/Furutech-Speakerflux-High-End-Speaker-Cables-FUSPFLUXSC.htm

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http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

A $4 part in 1977 would be $15 and change today.

Explain to me why these cables are worth over $3000..............really

http://www.douglasconnection.com/Furutech-Speakerflux-High-End-Speaker-Cables-FUSPFLUXSC.htm

Looks to me, after a visit to their site, that they are trying to 'flux' you with the 'fluxing' rip off cables. ;):lol:

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Explain to me why these cables are worth over $3000..............really

http://www.douglasconnection.com/Furutech-Speakerflux-High-End-Speaker-Cables-FUSPFLUXSC.htm

When buyer and seller can agree that price is correct, they do have a deal. I can not explain why someone is willing to pay 15 000,00 USD for bottle of wine if there is similar amount of pure alcohol in 7,00 USD bottle. Even then I prefer Tiganello at 70,00 over 7,00 E economy red wine... it is hard to say if Tiganello is worth 70,00 or cables are worth 3000,00... maybe this is the reason I do not get drunk too often.

World's Top 50 Most Expensive Wines

http://www.wine-searcher.com/most-expensive-wines.lml

Best Regards

Kimmo

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Think of the gear you could buy with $3000.

I suppose if you are willing to part with $3000 for cables then you (they) would ear a difference; whether it exists or not - NOT. Blows my mind.

I would not spend 3000,00 to cables either... even I have personally heard that differences do exist. Most cables do sound similar to me...but not all. I use most often custom phono cables and more modestly priced Nordost Red Dawn speker cables.http://nordost.com/leif/red-dawn/red-dawn-speaker-cable.phpThey are a bit overkill when used with 70´s speakers.

My financial state is now such that I do prefer lower cost vintage gear. My recent buy´s have been modestly priced items like Armstrong 621, Celestion Ditton 15´s... and I am now considering if I could afford to buy Rogers Ravensbourn integrated amplifier http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/rogers/ravensbourne.shtml

Best Regards

Kimmo

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When I have voiced my opinions on cables in other forums it's been a thread killer. I just KNEW that cooler heads prevailed here. After all, we're all nuts for 50 year old speakers!

der

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Well, at the bare minimum, speaker cables and capacitors can be shown to actually do something in a circuit.

How about this little guy, whose claims (aside from increased horsepower) seem to be a bit more esoteric :

The SHAKTI Electromagnetic Stabilizer (aka "the Stone") has three internal trap circuits (Microwave, RF and Electric Field) to absorb the broadest spectrum of EMI. Placement on automotive CPUs has measurably increased engine horsepower. It also improves resolution for virtually all-major components in high definition audio/video systems. Music reproduction is clearer, with more liquidity, dynamics and focus. The improved inter-transient silence allows the listener to hear ambient cue information essential for accurate perception of stage depth, width and unwavering imaging. High quality video systems will benefit from SHAKTI devices near power supplies, projection guns and laser disc/DVD players. Reduced color noise and improved convergence alignment are some of the improvements that can occur. In automotive applications, where space allows, the unit should be securely taped and/or cable tied to the top of the CPU.

post-100370-0-18921300-1434297303_thumb.

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Darn, I missed my chance to get one of those Hindu goddess stones ... "not currently available" on Amazon -- someone had the audacity to do a bilind test ... they are available on the auction site though :)

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The link to the description of the switched capacitor test no longer works in the first post in this

thread. The person who set up the speaker for that switched test was Dennis Murphy, and he

mentions it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1355686-replacing-capacitors-speaker-crossovers-better-sound.html#post20860163

Here is a different summary of the DIY event in 2004 where that testing was done:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/capacitor-sound-blind-test-results.4948/

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  • 1 year later...
On 10/26/2005 at 1:16 AM, Pete B said:

I've said that listening tests are unreliable unless they're controlled, this is a fact that is difficult to convey or teach even to some professionals.

I normally stay out of capacitor, amplifier, and wire discussions on the net so let me make a few comments. Sure caps that are at end of life or completely failed will obviously sound bad, this is not what I'm talking about. And certainly it's possible for a company to make a very poor product, this is not the subject either. I'm talking about competently designed components, but not necessarily expensive.

I wrote in response to Vern's idea that it would be interesting for someone to do a capacitor switch test:

This is an excellent idea, yes it has been done, and the results are interesting. One such test was done among a group of highly opinionated speaker builders. The group had a culture, they had common beliefs, most heard differences in caps. Solens, Daytons, Electros, the boutique caps sounded so much better, they were friends with a designer of some boutique caps, he would advise them on which to use. Many in this group were advanced, they had and used measurement equipment, understood much of the theory. Then they did the test - uh oh. Perhaps I'll tell the rest of the story some time.

I want to add a few comments about what I saw in this experiment/discussion. The gentleman who did this switched capacitor test is a PHD economist with a good understanding of science in general but not in depth in electrical engineering. Yet he knows how to use measurement tools and has done some of the best home brew designs on the net. He wins speaker design contests against some of the other bests out there and their designs would give many commercial designs a run for their money.

It is interesting to watch discussions and see how many members chime in with how the differences between caps are so obvious, blatantly obvious.

This fellow added relays to one of his excellent designs so that he could listen to 3 different caps, an electrolytic, a low cost poly, and a boutique poly. He described when he first tried it that he thought the switching was not working, little if any difference. He then replaced one cap with a very different value and what do you know it *was* working. This is what I've found and it can be an eye opener. What more convincing does one need, it seems like the switch isn't even hooked up.

These builders have meets around the country and they decided to do a comparison test. This was what one of the organizers had to say "The bottom line on the whole day was that nobody did better than flipping a coin."

Here's the story summarized by that organizer:

http://www.members.aol.com/pjay99site/captest2.htm

This is why you see mylars, electrolytics, etc. in some of the most expensive designs out there.

Pete B.

Is anyone able to get this link repaired?

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The Audioholics link Pete B. provided in his June 15, 2015 post describes a blind listening tests involving 3 different types of capacitors. The quote below is excerpted from that link.

" As a side show to the speakers, the organizers performed blind listening tests of various expensive (Solen metalized polypropylene), moderate (mylar), and cheap (electrolytic) capacitors mounted in the crossovers of several speakers."

By comparison to today's standards, those 3 caps really aren't all that far apart except for the ESR in the lytic vs the Solen which might have been about a 1/4 ohm apart. 

As far a repairing the link you referred to, sometimes old links become dead ends because computers with that info. get trashed by owners getting new ones.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/17/2016 at 3:31 PM, DavidR said:

Is anyone able to get this link repaired?

Strange that it is not in the Wayback machine, it works most of the time.

I might have it in a text file on an old backup, give me some time to look.

That link went to Pjay's web page.  The speaker used in that test was set up with the switch

by Dennis Murphy, a well known designer.  I'm not sure if Bob Cordell was there for that cap

test but he later worked a bit with Pjay and Bob did a switched demo of a high priced tube

amp vs. cheap NAD solid state - most people picked the solid state amp!  The well known 

company for the tube amp made a huge fuss over it all.  Bob later stopped using name brand

tube amps.  Bob has this about HE2007 where he used his own tube amps, the other demos

were previous to HE2007:

http://www.cordellaudio.com/he2007/

I was going to write here that you could search for discussion on other forums but I see that 

I gave the links in my June 15, 2015 post.  You can try any links given in those other threads 

in the Wayback machine if they are dead.

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What you were paying for in the 70s when you bought caps from AR was someone pulling the right number of the right caps out of inventory and packaging them for you. This was long before you could just order caps off the net, and for a lot of people, buying "electronic parts" retail meant taking a trip into the city, walking up to the counter of an industrial electric supply company and running headfirst into a minimum order of 25 of each part.

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after reading this thread....and others....I still cannot understand If  cheepie Electrolytic non-polarized Capacitors will do ok for a ar3a woofer.......and what is really going on with all the different capacitors -styles-etc

 

I just recapped a set of ar5 speakers with Dayton Polypropylene capacitors, and did not blink about the costs since they didnt have a big 150mf cap.....the results?   Yes, the speaker has more clarity and seems more focused than my all original ar3a's.  Ihear more detail.    The ar3a sounds nice, but after hearing the recapped ar5, I know i would benefit by recapping the ar3a, however, what to use???

 

this topic is confusing.

 

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What is even more confusing and harder to understand are people's audio preferences which can vary quite widely. You say your AR3a sounds nice and many other owners would probably say don't change a thing because you will alter the 'original voicing'. Replacing old electrolytic caps with new  PP film types will most likely alter the voicing somewhat because you removed the low level series resistance (called ESR) the lytics provided and replaced it with virtually no series resistance. Thus with a voltage boost to the mids and tweets, you will hear things more 'clearly'. 

Some recappers who are paranoid about altering the original voicing will add a low value 1/4 ohm or so resistor in series with the new film cap to maintain that low level ESR. 

A lot depends on how badly the factory lytics aged and their ESR increased which is the unknown to the casual one-time recapper. If an old lytic's ESR has risen well over 1 ohm which can happen in come cases, a change to a film cap with 0.1 ohm ESR will most likely result in the re-capper complaining about the sound being too bright. Although, I often wonder about those with rheostats or L-pads on their speakers should be able to compensate by turning them down a bit (i.e. adding in some series resistance). 

So Harry, I suggest you read up on ESR and it's relationship to re-capping outcomes. There's a mountain of information on the subject on the WWW. 

BTW, if you are lucky, your AR3a's might have Sprague Compulytic caps in them - in which case you won't need to recap them because numerous tests I've done on that make and brand have shown little or no drifting of ESR with age. 

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Harry,

What Carl says is the reason for the difference IMO. I have a pair of AR91's recapped with Dayton polys. The result was clear, detailed sound. I hesitate to use the word 'bright' as it carries a different meaning for me. I also have a pair or AR90s which have all the original caps and resistors. I swap them out from time to time. I have never listened to them back-to-back. In other words I've never listened to one pair and immediately started using the other UNTIL the other day. I put the 90's in place and began listening immediately............the HORROR...................they sounded dull and lifeless. The only thing that was better was the bass. I have little to no doubt if I replaced all the caps with some new, quality electrolytics they too would sound just as good as the 91s with poly caps. The only difference/drawback is the electrolytics will drift (again) over time and the polys will stay the same.

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"Bright" may mean something different to you, but to a lot of us, the big question would be whether your "clear, detailed" recapped speakers or your "dull, lifeless" unrecapped ones are the ones that sound closer to what the speakers were like when they were new..

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19 minutes ago, genek said:

"Bright" may mean something different to you, but to a lot of us, the big question would be whether your "clear, detailed" recapped speakers or your "dull, lifeless" unrecapped ones are the ones that sound closer to what the speakers were like when they were new..

I will never know.

The recapped ones image very well. The 90s do not.

Those black w/red ends caps are not electrolytic. Are they PVC film?

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