Amplifier wattage for AR3a

[Aadams]

4 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

There's even a few on this forum and I hope they know how they actually come across to the rest of us

 

[jackswagger]

On 9/19/2021 at 11:46 PM, frankmarsi said:

9/19/2021

Last time I upped my system’s power amplifiers in 2009, I was already using two Phase Linear PL-400’s to power four LST speakers.  Then I moved on to two Phase Linear PL-700 amplifiers.  I only gained about 3db in actual volume level. Do I always use the higher volume levels?  No, but listening at a realistic volume level of say a classical piece where the VU meters are hovering around 75 to 135 watts @4 ohms and a large transient suddenly bursts out of the speakers I watch my meters indicate about 200 to 350+ watts @ 4 ohms each channel. And just to spread more excitement or distain and animosity that my posts seem to stir, these refurbed amps will lift up to 700 WPC RMS.  LST’s have no qualms with peaks of 1000 WPC, or so Julian Hirsch reported in testing the LST in 1972. Fifty years or so lately, I still exercise caution as I always have when using high power.

Now, given the fact that the AR-LST speaker is never phased (no pun) and doesn’t bat an eye-lash at such increases except for reproducing it and letting my ears enjoy. This is where power ratings are necessary and should be considered when planning how much ‘realism’ you want your music to have. With low-wattage, the ability of not distorting or adding any unknown/undesirable anomaly to the sound is paramount if you want to say it’s a high-performance system and is realistic sounding. That would be difficult to do well as the low powered amp would be working very hard and still not offer the 'huge-ness' rendered by big power.

In my long history of using inefficient AR speakers going far back into personal history, the amps I used have ratings @8ohms wpc. I went from 17.5 then to 60, then, 200 and now 360 watts per-channel at 8 ohms. Respectively at 4 ohms, the 17.6 watt-er probably at peak hit 22 watts. The 60 watt-er did 67, it’s been reported. And the 200 WPC watt PL doubled to 400 WPC and the 360 WPC PL-700 will do 700 WPC.

Each increase certainly raised the volume by what was a discernible measure. Each increase of wattage did enable my music to come out of the veil of lower power and forgive these unscientific terms, it was; 'bigger', ’clearer’ ‘faster’, a ‘deeper’ sense of and ‘wider soundstage’, all the while coming across more relaxed with-out any hint of strain and at the same time showing more latitude, strength and the most important quality ‘control’. When an amp has enough power to control the power it unleashes the music sounds more natural, when a lower power amp has to be pushed to the same volume, it loses control in the form of clipping and distortion and ultimately failure if conditions continued.

Control of the actual notes allowing music to flow and present itself in a more ‘natural’  and flowing way. These are some of the benefits of using a ‘HIGH’ power amp. The standard of the industry for many years was to solely quote 8 ohm ratings, as far as I recall, the additional 4 ohm ratings became more prevalent during the advent of the super power amps.

FM

P.S.  Was it in 1972 or so that the FTC enforced testing at 1/3 power?

Below, some quick easy helpful reading:

  https://www.google.com/search?q=FTC+inforced+testing+at+1%2F3+power&source=hp&ei=GW1HYZSkGM6r5NoP0Kq8-Ac&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYUd7KZv0dtxfMPilKrxg9ulofCSBBGBF&oq=FTC+inforced+testing+at+1%2F3+power&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAwyBQghEKsCUIYDWIYDYJkRaABwAHgAgAF1iAF1kgEDMC4xmAEAoAECoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjUlOODwovzAhXOFVkFHVAVD38Q4dUDCAw

 

Reading:  https://www.google.com/search?q=decilbel+watts&source=hp&ei=WltHYaT6D8Kp1QGUipT4Cg&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYUdpapUX0tytEU-apBeD2pv7hyFiwNGQ&oq=decilbel+watts&gs_lcp=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&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwikj7iNsYvzAhXCVDUKHRQFBa8Q4dUDCAg&uact=5\\

 

Disclaimer: When using  high-power amplifiers it is strongly recommended to use appropriate fuses with the speakers for maximum protection to avoid damage to the speakers.

 

 

530

fair enough

[newandold]

High and low powered amplifiers share a common thread.

There is PERIL with both when taken to the extreme.

The difference?  Too Loud with high power and you’ll damage your speakers, but the amp. Will survive it.

Try to make it loud with a “toy” amp. and probably, you’ll. Lose them both.

I’ll take high power with discretion any day of the week 

[teknofossil]

On 11/13/2021 at 6:19 AM, Giorgio AR said:

Dear Frank, I appreciate more and more your interventions and the "stories" of your memories and past times (life was certainly harder, but true and not distracted from the abstraction of these nervous and imprecise times).
My father was born in 1934, he worked as a worker in a steel mill in Trieste, so there was no wealth but all the expenses were prudent and necessary, little by little, saving little by little in 1971 he bought the first complete stereo set: it was full Grundig, except the Technics branded tuner, this system that instilled in me the "Passion" for HiFi is still in use by my now elderly parent! Clearly the Grundig speakers of the time are in pneumatic suspension, with excellent components (mids and tws both with soft dome with characteristics and sounds very close to our beloved ARs).
I want to attach a photo, taken around 1974/5 in the campsite where with sacrifice my father made us spend 2 weeks of sun, excellent sea, obviously with accommodation in a tent: it is the one on the left of the Opel Kadett (Ts 137112) in the photo, my father is to the left of the frame and the kid with the racket is my brother.
I still go to the same campsite now with my family (I was there again this November, but not in a tent, but in a comfortable heated and insulated bungalow, now I leave the tent to young people who have no problems with a little humidity or conditions unfavorable weather!

And below is a photo taken about the same place where my mother and my last 9 year old son (I turn 59 year in December) appear, audiophile and lover of AR sound !!
Last photo, the car that at my father's time was an Opel subcompact, now is a comfortable Mercedes W123.
I wanted to edit the black and white photos to accompany them to the earlier one (color printing in Italy at the time was very expensive).

Opel Kadett? My first car was a 1969 Kadett my senior year in high school in 1976. My brother, (who was a gifted auto body guy starting his first year at Worcester Polytech) and  I thought it would be a good candidate for a custom paint job. Those bluish areas were actually a metalic blue with metalic green fishscale overspray. Whole thing was clear coated and then thin gold pinstripes to separate the colors. It looked cool at first, we were pretty pleased with ourselves. Tastes changed a year later and we added fog lights above the front bumper and repainted it to look like a Opel cross country rally car. Nothing like a 1.3 liter 4 cylinder engine with Solex carburation... Great fun.

[johnfalc]

On 9/25/2021 at 2:39 PM, frankmarsi said:

That's good to hear.

I have retained every piece of audio equipment I bought since 1967.  Including the Dynaco PAS-3X, kit I built, a ST-35 tube amp, ST-120 kit I built and all of the Phase Linear amps and pre-amps I bought when I retired in the early 2000's. I even have the new then Shure cartridges from the start in 1967. Though I started fooling around with old radios found in the neighborhoods trash cans or the ones my father messed around with. A Shure M3D, M55, M91ED, Empire SE/X , a Shure Type III, Shure Type IV.

Let's not forget every AR speaker also. Of course every vinyl disk I bought since including the first disk I had to have because the tune was so catchy back in 1961-62 of the Ventures, 'Walk Don't Run', a few 45RPM in much played condition like Louie, Louie by the Kingsmen, Green Onions by Booker T and the MG's, Heart and Soul by The Cleftones,  etc. At the age I was at of 11-12, my weekly allowance was all of 10 cents, I to save up for weeks to afford a "AMT" model car to build. It did take time to save up unless I was thrown  .25 cents to a .50 by a visiting relative or my parents had a little to throw my way every once in a while like a couple of dollars but, that was very rare. Coming from a family that began in 1930 living in Bed-Sty, Brooklyn there was never any extra money. Money only went for necessities primarily and living expenses, gas, electric, food and car fare though we all walked where ever we had to be. Mother made my pants and suits and my 3 older sisters skirts, blouses and dresses. We did not accept GOV. hand-outs.By the early 1960s things were changing for the better carrying over from the fifties in this country.

Life was very tough for depression time immigrants and everyone before that, some did well, some barely recovered afterward. Mother worked in a sweat-shop on a sewing machine in a factory making blouses, coats and other clothing, my father worked on 125th. Street and Lenox Ave. in New York City as a 'timber-man' shoring-up the building's sidewalks and basements on either side of the street as the steam-shovel dug the subway tunnels right down the middle of the street. The sidewalks and curbs and actual buildings on either side of the street/hole had to be supported with 12"X12" timbers so the buildings would not collapse into the huge hole they were digging as NYC continually expanded it's subways. Luckily for me I was born in 1949 four years after WW II had ended and the country was on a roll during the 1950's so, my life was made better for me by my  parents and oldest sibling and a flourishing economy. We all loved AMERICA dearly.  

Life back then for mostly everyone was difficult and certainly very different than it is today and it was before my time. We didn't have a car until the oldest sister finished college and started working at a private school in Brooklyn.  First car in 1959 that she bought a used 1955 Chevy Belair 4 door in the popular turquoise and white paint scheme. My family finally left Brooklyn by 1960. Brooklyn has been for some time the fourth largest city in the country with just over 4 million in population. Ah Brooklyn, with-out it, NYC would never be NYC. The story goes that the Dutch named it originally as the area of 'broken-land' henceforth Brooklyn as time went by. The Dutch were forced out of Manhattan and they went to Staten Island as my family did. However, each of us worked in Manhattan as that's where the jobs were and from S.I. it meant at least a four hour commute (both ways), everyday back to S.I.

I have a couple of early photos of my father using a two-man handled saw because chain saws were probably rare and or a new, yet to be manufactured tool. He had two huge two-man saws however, someone stole them out of the garage. Call me a hoarder in todays terms but, back when my family began, one repaired or repurposed objects when broken or kept them for parts and I was taught those same things. Metals were always held onto especially. All of the family's food was made from scratch, left-overs saved for tomorrow's side dish.

And "newandold" coming from small discarded kitchen tube radios, junked TVs with one 12 inch speaker as most had back then was the 'norm' for me as my starting point.  When I decided to go solid-state in 1972, of course S.S. really wasn't wide-spread like today. Transistors were still not so widely used or even known of by most of the general public. Even the phenomenal Bob Carver was forced to use Delco transistors that GM was using in their truck ignitions as many transistors were yet to be developed that could handle high voltage as those did. Luckily, my rebuilt PL-700s use more modern "On-Semi"/"Motorola"  power-transistors with a larger "SOA' and the two amps were rebuilt by one of the last PL gurus in Washington state.

The way I talk, one would think it not out the realm of possibilities for me to buy a larger burial plot so I could take my LST's with me. I don't know what others feel about their speakers but, what I own was a long time in coming to me and the attraction has never left me. Though I have to admit, this whole present issue of the virus, political unrest and the discourse of many things through-out the world has really set me back where I rarely do any listening these days- I sure hope that passes soon. Music has always been a saving grace for me with rock to speak my mind and classical to express my deepest emotions.

BELOW: My father is on the right wearing the plaid shirt, over-alls and cap cutting a heavy timber around 1927 to 1930, just before the depression hit hard.  He was 18 to 21 year old and fresh off the boat a couple of years before that. Notice construction clothing was very different back then. He told me stories of when fellow workers would become injured and then they were finished as workmen's comp and insurance for the working class was non-existent. 

FM

 

 

1k

The lack of workman's comp or other insurance could be a catastrophe for a family.  My great grandfather, a carpenter's foreman, lost an eye due to another worker's mistake.  That was his last day of work ... ever.  His sons had to move from teen life to work life to support the family.

[teknofossil]

For what it is worth I suggest looking for one of the Parasound HCA (High Current Amplifier) series of amps. They are decently constructed and in my experience very reliable. I typically use my HCA-1000 which is rated at 120w/ch. My other regular (IE: functional) is a HCA-855 rated at 85w/ch. Both are very good (used) for the $. Also, my vintage (1977) Onkyo TX-4500 was very capable driving AR2ax systems as well as the OHM Model G (which I regret selling not so much due to the sound as for being a classic and unique design)

-T

[JKent]

I know "How Many Watts?" will be a subject of endless discussion here on CSP but I for one have had a change of heart. I was always of the mind that 12" ARs need mega power.

I recently acquired a DB 6 amp, rated 60wpc into 4 ohms. I'll admit I'm kind of a DB "groupie" having admired the gear from this little New Hampshire company for decades but I had shied away from the amp because it seemed, well, underpowered.

My new-to-me DB-6 was sold as "for repair" so I got a good buy and DB's founder/owner, David B (DB)Hadaway is still selling and repairing/upgrading DB gear so I sent him the amp for repair and upgrade to 6A. I'll write that up in the appropriate section of this forum but wanted to report that after replacing my Adcom GFP-565 preamp and GFA-555/II amp (325wpc @ 4 ohms) with a DB-1A preamp and DB-6A power amp, my AR-91s have never sounded so good! Granted, I'm not trying to fill a stadium (but who is?) and also not cranking it up to 11 (like Spinal Tap).

Here's a paper from DB Systems, dated October 1978, that addresses the issue.

[newandold]

I grew weary of the whole “how many watts” thing decades ago and got past it in 2 ways….

1= Subwoofers:

The Fidelity I crave (and most people) I believe and perhaps 🤔 not realizing it comes primarily from the tweeters and midrange from AR or Allison in my case and not so much the woofer sections. Much of the amplifier horsepower is needed to drive that woofer section, so if you take much of that load away with powered subs., you’ve got yourself more amp. headroom for those mids and tweets.

Depending on the crossover point you’re using and if you were diligent in matching the subs to your mains, you’ve got it all including freq. response low enough to enjoy organ music if it pleases you without testing the limits.

Put that together with a high power main amp and you can put the whole subject to rest.

[frankmarsi]

2-16-2022 8:30PM EST

I'll try to keep this short which is usually not like me.

@newandold, I too have been thinking about buying a sub-woofer ever since I hooked up a 5 inch sub woofer and sound bar to my new Sony 4K TV, it was very surprising to hear what a little speaker can do. However, I wasn’t listening for purity of tone or, quality of output sound.

Embarrassingly enough, I was looking into a 15 or 12 inch “SVS” which is a moderately priced unit.  My system drives four AR 12 inch woofers as it is. The sub would add additional bass to the lower regions but, I still have my reservations in terms of the actual hook-up and use.

In my late model car I have 12 individual speakers and that includes a sub-woofer, all factory  installed as part of the upgrade offered when I bought the car new. It’s a “Sony” system that does sound very good though is relegated to a car’s interior and obviously is deceptive because of that.

I struggle with the thought of a sub-woofer and coming from being a electric bass player in my youth and a strong lover of the bass sound whether it be a stand-up bass, electric bass or organ bass notes. I’m not a fan of the exaggerated low frequencies as is found in movies that is added solely for effect. My ear/mind connection rejects that level of falseness immediately after it’s heard or felt though, it is thrilling to hear/feel.

Besides, being an avid lover of AR’s bass as being the closest rendition of a natural sounding musical bass, I find it difficult to accept anything false. Excessively heightened or fake bass tones. I leave that to the domain of younger than I generations who have been taken-in by that and other falseness of media.

Regarding the topic of power, I must confess I’m done with the false remarks of such quotes of “Mac-watts” or things like, “it tested higher output on the bench” and similar BS.

True, some manufacturers say things like this at times in their ads but, the power rating is always implied and plus or minus to stay with-in their designed parameters of manufacture. This does not mean the user will actually recieve the higher potential number upon their purchase. I ask, why do some folks with lower watts say it’s more, are they over-compensating?

Secondly, it isn’t the typical vintage system owner here or elsewhere that typically uses  high power of let’s say more than 150 to 200 watts RMS per-channel, though some might, the number of users is small, that number isn't considered high in the 21st. century. Case in point; I’ll never forget when in 1974 I went from 60 WPC to 400 WPC on my AR-3a’s. I was introduced to a whole new world of detail, intensity, strength and power of every piece of music I put on my turntable, and to the unknowing or inexperienced; there is nothing like high-power. This is not to say I blast away all the time but, even at moderate listening levels, high power affords like I said, greater detail, depth and space of the recorded piece. I just can't believe I'm declaring the virtues of higher wattage almost half a century later after I first bought into it and have been endorsing high-power since 1974 to all my hi-fi pals.

In closing, if one hasn’t delved into very high power amplifier use, you needn’t have to project the possible falsehood of a 60 watt amp bench testing at 75 or 80 watts or a 150 watt amp able to output 175 cause you’re not going to realize it unless you’re using actual technical methods. When I upgraded to 700 WPC there was a change including more cavernous depth and strength but, it wasn't like the world turned upside down, just more of what I was already hearing at 400WPC and that is a certain higher level on its own.

FM

BELOW: swiped off the web.   https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/217201737-Doubling-Power-vs-Doubling-Output

2.9

[ar_pro]

13 hours ago, JKent said:

I know "How Many Watts?" will be a subject of endless discussion here on CSP but I for one have had a change of heart. I was always of the mind that 12" ARs need mega power.

I recently acquired a DB 6 amp, rated 60wpc into 4 ohms. I'll admit I'm kind of a DB "groupie" having admired the gear from this little New Hampshire company for decades but I had shied away from the amp because it seemed, well, underpowered.

My new-to-me DB-6 was sold as "for repair" so I got a good buy and DB's founder/owner, David B (DB)Hadaway is still selling and repairing/upgrading DB gear so I sent him the amp for repair and upgrade to 6A. I'll write that up in the appropriate section of this forum but wanted to report that after replacing my Adcom GFP-565 preamp and GFA-555/II amp (325wpc @ 4 ohms) with a DB-1A preamp and DB-6A power amp, my AR-91s have never sounded so good! Granted, I'm not trying to fill a stadium (but who is?) and also not cranking it up to 11 (like Spinal Tap).

 

The old 555II always seemed a fine match for AR systems, so it's good to know that some manufacturers are still building suitable amplifiers. What would you say the improvement with your DB-6A and AR-91s would be, Kent?

[newandold]

12 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

2-16-2022 8:30PM EST

 

“@newandold, I too have been thinking about buying a sub-woofer ever since I hooked up a 5 inch sub woofer and sound bar to my new Sony 4K TV, it was very surprising to hear what a little speaker can do. However, I wasn’t listening for purity of tone or, quality of output sound.”

Hi Frank,

I use different subwoofer AND processor settings when listening to music VS. special effects movies for exactly those reasons you’re concerned about.

12 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

“Embarrassingly enough, I was looking into a 15 or 12 inch “SVS” which is a moderately priced unit.”

Not embarrassing at all….SVS has tier level products and their top level stuff today is practically second to none. I’m zeroing in on the biggest SVS sub. out there now, to potentially replace the Velodyne HGS 18 that’s currently in my system. Velodyne is long gone from the subwoofer business so keeping this beast running could become problematic.

12 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

  “My system drives four AR 12 inch woofers as it is. The sub would add additional bass to the lower regions but, I still have my reservations in terms of the actual hook-up and use.”

Hookup is easy as is control and integration once you get into it.

 

“I struggle with the thought of a sub-woofer and coming from being a electric bass player in my youth and a strong lover of the bass sound whether it be a stand-up bass, electric bass or organ bass notes. I’m not a fan of the exaggerated low frequencies as is found in movies that is added solely for effect. My ear/mind connection rejects that level of falseness immediately after it’s heard or felt.”

The key to these concerns is simply making (once again) the distinction between film and music. I’m a huge fan of highly accurate bass guitar in all music….but an EARTHQUAKE should be a frightening film experience indeed.

12 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

[frankmarsi]

Being I'm a traditionalist when it comes to my vintage system and what it is composed of, I don’t have the modern facility to hook-up a sub-woofer or modern-stuff like that. My pre-amp and amp can be considered antiques at this stage and therefore almost frail. I steer away from plug and play stuff because my equipment is from another era and time. I walk into a store and no one there has even the faintest idea of what I may tell those born newbies types. I've tried to describe once or twice while speculatively looking at video equipment and when speaking, I simply get crickets and not a clue facial expression from a younger person. I probably had the same expression when my father attempted to explain what life was like for an immigrant during the great-depression so long ago, so it's all relative, I get that.

What I learned 60 years ago is not common sense these days. Nor is common sense so common anymore either. On top of it all, I would never mix a dedicated music-system with a video system, that’s just me as the expression goes and quite rightly so. Additionally, my vintage stuff more than likely would not survive the exaggerated levels in modern movie sound tracks so, I’d have to think modern in any future equipment selections I may make. For such a video I'd bring in my conventional thinking and buy into those 'chip' amps some folks rant about reluctantly although. one of guitar amps is 100RMS watts and class 'D'.  Oh my, heaven forbid.

I think about a bigger video set-up because I plan on buying a Sony 55-65 inch 4 K TV screen for my den which will also double as my music room and there I will have my guitars, amps, and video stuff. Being a bedroom-player becomes inconvenient after a while. And though I haven’t priced anything out, I understand, I’ll have to spend some money for it to even come close to my strictly audio-system.

FM

[JKent]

12 hours ago, ar_pro said:

The old 555II always seemed a fine match for AR systems, so it's good to know that some manufacturers are still building suitable amplifiers. What would you say the improvement with your DB-6A and AR-91s would be,

That's a tough one. I've never been good at describing the sound of speakers or the taste of Scotch, I just know what I like 😄

My first impression was that everything sounded more "here". Maybe more detailed? More life-like. Sort of like being in the room with the performers. I'll have to do more listening. OTOH, my listening room is far from ideal. The big 91s don't fit in my living room so I use them in my rec room-turned shop.

I do think it's a synergy among the DB1A preamp, DB6A amp and the speakers. I don't yet have a 'table in that system but I do have a 2nd stereo in the shop that includes an AR TT, DB1A preamp and a Musical Concepts modded Hafler DH200 driving AR-3a's. I don't have the same you-are-there experience with that setup but those speakers are in a really bad location so not a good comparison at all.

[JKent]

On 2/16/2022 at 12:47 PM, newandold said:

Subwoofers

This discussion is sort of veering off in a couple of directions but I'll add my 2 cents: I've been a fan of subs for years but they are controversial and some purists reject them out of hand.

I don't currently use a sub with the AR-91s or 3a's but in my living room (aka home theater) I have a surround system consisting of nearly 100% vintage speakers. The main front speakers are Cizek KA-1s, with 6.5" woofers so in that system I use a whopping big sub. It's a VMPS Original with a 12" woofer and 15" passive radiator, built from a kit years ago. It was originally passive but I added a plate amp a few years back. The HT uses a modern receiver with Audyssey which is great because it sets the levels of all the different speakers in the mix, including the sub, so they play nice together.

[ar_pro]

27 minutes ago, JKent said:

That's a tough one. I've never been good at describing the sound of speakers or the taste of Scotch, I just know what I like 😄

My first impression was that everything sounded more "here". Maybe more detailed? More life-like. Sort of like being in the room with the performers. I'll have to do more listening. OTOH, my listening room is far from ideal. The big 91s don't fit in my living room so I use them in my rec room-turned shop.

I do think it's a synergy among the DB1A preamp, DB6A amp and the speakers. I don't yet have a 'table in that system but I do have a 2nd stereo in the shop that includes an AR TT, DB1A preamp and a Musical Concepts modded Hafler DH200 driving AR-3a's. I don't have the same you-are-there experience with that setup but those speakers are in a really bad location so not a good comparison at all.

Yeah, synergy is important, and it sounds like the DB Systems gear is a great match with the AR-91.

There's something to be said for high-quality, lower-wattage systems, especially with vintage acoustic suspension speakers that makes for a very musical presentation. Back in the era of the 555II, there were a number of reviewers who felt the smaller GFA-535 to be the preferable amplifier in some systems; and there's a plethora of such set-ups with UK-manufactured gear, as none of their manufacturers ever went down the high-power road.

My neighbor has a small system with a 45-watt/channel integrated tube amplifier and a pair of French loudspeakers - definitely not a wall-shaking experience, but extremely musical. He stays up late listening to it, which is pretty much this hobby's main goal. 

[newandold]

On 2/17/2022 at 1:29 PM, frankmarsi said:

“What I learned 60 years ago is not common sense these days. Nor is common sense so common anymore either. On top of it all, I would never mix a dedicated music-system with a video system, that’s just me as the expression goes and quite rightly so. Additionally, my vintage stuff more than likely would not survive theexaggerated levels in modern movie sound tracks so,I’d have to think modern in any future equipmentselections I may make. For such a video I'd bring in myconventional thinking and buy into those 'chip' ampssome folks rant about reluctantly although. one ofguitar amps is 100RMS watts and class 'D'.  Oh my,heaven forbid.”

 

For years leading up to 2000, I was determined to build one system that would render BOTH music and film 🎥 to the highest standard with A frequency range from 20,000 all the way down to 15HZ   where you feel rather than hear. 
There are many out there who feel a dedicated 2 channel system should never be mixed with multi channel, but  with today’s modern pre. Pro. Offerings only outdated thinking stands in the way. I have owned and still have two true high end audio preamps that that just happen to have AV capability (Sunfire and Emotiva XMC1)

I have separate configuration settings for film vs music that are tweaked depending on source material. None of my 2 channel systems of the past could out perform what I’ve got going on now!

[JKent]

On 2/17/2022 at 1:43 PM, JKent said:

in my living room (aka home theater) I have a surround system consisting of nearly 100% vintage speakers. The main front speakers are Cizek KA-1s

 

2 minutes ago, newandold said:

I have separate configuration settings for film vs music that are tweaked depending on source material.

In my living room system, if I don't want the full surround-sound for music, I have a Harman-Kardon T-60 turntable with Shure V-15V cartridge feeding a re-capped and fully refurbished Scott 299 tube amp and a switch that lets me play those through the Cizeks. A little vintage setup within the HT.

As an aside, I bought the HK TT new back in the 80s to replace my AR XA. It seemed to be essentially an AR but with auto-lift, a nice Itok tone arm and a few other niceties. Doesn't have the vintage charm of the AR so I'm glad I kept that, too.

[Giorgio AR]

36 minutes ago, JKent said:

Doesn't have the vintage charm of the AR so I'm glad I kept that, too.

Kent, you did well to keep the AR turntable, this turntable has a unique charm and aesthetic, along with a timeless aesthetic minimalism!

[frankmarsi]

 

2-19-2022

@newandold, thanks for the insights and conveying your experiences. Surely, you must understand that I’ve been an avid vintage-stereo person since just before my components were actually ‘new’. Additionally, that is to say however strong and competent my components are, I wouldn’t subject them to the hard rigors of modern day recording techniques along with the inherent stress and strain of frequency and electronic sounds video would put on them.

I was thinking more along the lines of a dedicated high power receiver (did I actually just say that? I probably don’t mean it), to handle the inrush of odd space sounds, explosions or gun fire. Not that I watch movies that include that but, you never know when you have guests over and what they might request.

Although i may veer-off my standard beliefs, I do have in my reserve-fleet,  six Phase Linear PL-400’s and 3 pairs of AR-3a speakers enough to satisfy the requirements for a 5.1 of even a 7.1 video set-up. There's also the option of using a spare pair of AR-LST's as the front speakers though they demand being against the from wall and would complicate issues regarding video set-up.

But, like I said, I rather put the stress and strain on some newer less valuable components than my arsenal of vintage equipment whether or not their ability to handle the rigors of modern day video productions is sustainable.

Room wise; the den is 20 X 12.5 feet and has oak flooring. Since the house was built in 1965 it also has that then popular, wood paneling and even though it’s the thicker better quality paneling, I may have to rip it all off and install 3/8” sheet-rock, or install the sheet-rock over the paneling. The room also has as one full wall of the room, a huge fireplace which I haven’t given any thought to as to how to deal with.

I could fabricate a panel that would slide in front of it to cover the opening. It’s all still in the planning stages as luckily, I have many options.

FM

3.1

[newandold]

45 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

 

2-19-2022

@newandold, thanks for the insights and conveying your experiences. Surely, you must understand that I’ve been an avid vintage-stereo person since just before my components were actually ‘new’. Additionally, that is to say however strong and competent my components are, I wouldn’t subject them to the hard rigors of modern day recording techniques along with the inherent stress and strain of frequency and electronic sounds video would put on them.

I was thinking more along the lines of a dedicated high power receiver (did I actually just say that? I probably don’t mean it), to handle the inrush of odd space sounds, explosions or gun fire. Not that I watch movies that include that but, you never know when you have guests over and what they might request.

Although i may veer-off my standard beliefs, I do have in my reserve-fleet,  six Phase Linear PL-400’s and 3 pairs of AR-3a speakers enough to satisfy the requirements for a 5.1 of even a 7.1 video set-up. There's also the option of using a spare pair of AR-LST's as the front speakers though they demand being against the from wall and would complicate issues regarding video set-up.

But, like I said, I rather put the stress and strain on some newer less valuable components than my arsenal of vintage equipment whether or not their ability to handle the rigors of modern day video productions is sustainable.

Room wise; the den is 20 X 12.5 feet and has oak flooring. Since the house was built in 1965 it also has that then popular, wood paneling and even though it’s the thicker better quality paneling, I may have to rip it all off and install 3/8” sheet-rock, or install the sheet-rock over the paneling. The room also has as one full wall of the room, a huge fireplace which I haven’t given any thought to as to how to deal with.

I could fabricate a panel that would slide in front of it to cover the opening. It’s all still in the planning stages as luckily, I have many options.

FM

3.1

Vintage speakers such as yours can handle anything you throw at them with one important exception and that’s what’s getting lost here.

A processor with crossover point settings and dedicated LFE is essential (and I realize you don’t want this) to shield your woofers from bottoming out ( over excursion). as long as you’re not clipping the rest of the material would be child’s play for a system like the 3a

One, or a pair of subs would also be needed and you indicated no interest there….that’s ok!

[newandold]

46 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

 

2-19-2022

@newandold, thanks for the insights and conveying your experiences. Surely, you must understand that I’ve been an avid vintage-stereo person since just before my components were actually ‘new’. Additionally, that is to say however strong and competent my components are, I wouldn’t subject them to the hard rigors of modern day recording techniques along with the inherent stress and strain of frequency and electronic sounds video would put on them.

I was thinking more along the lines of a dedicated high power receiver (did I actually just say that? I probably don’t mean it), to handle the inrush of odd space sounds, explosions or gun fire. Not that I watch movies that include that but, you never know when you have guests over and what they might request.

Although i may veer-off my standard beliefs, I do have in my reserve-fleet,  six Phase Linear PL-400’s and 3 pairs of AR-3a speakers enough to satisfy the requirements for a 5.1 of even a 7.1 video set-up. There's also the option of using a spare pair of AR-LST's as the front speakers though they demand being against the from wall and would complicate issues regarding video set-up.

But, like I said, I rather put the stress and strain on some newer less valuable components than my arsenal of vintage equipment whether or not their ability to handle the rigors of modern day video productions is sustainable.

Room wise; the den is 20 X 12.5 feet and has oak flooring. Since the house was built in 1965 it also has that then popular, wood paneling and even though it’s the thicker better quality paneling, I may have to rip it all off and install 3/8” sheet-rock, or install the sheet-rock over the paneling. The room also has as one full wall of the room, a huge fireplace which I haven’t given any thought to as to how to deal with.

I could fabricate a panel that would slide in front of it to cover the opening. It’s all still in the planning stages as luckily, I have many options.

FM

3.1

 

[newandold]

1 hour ago, JKent said:

 

In my living room system, if I don't want the full surround-sound for music, I have a Harman-Kardon T-60 turntable with Shure V-15V cartridge feeding a re-capped and fully refurbished Scott 299 tube amp and a switch that lets me play those through the Cizeks. A little vintage setup within the HT.

As an aside, I bought the HK TT new back in the 80s to replace my AR XA. It seemed to be essentially an AR but with auto-lift, a nice Itok tone arm and a few other niceties. Doesn't have the vintage charm of the AR so I'm glad I kept that, too.

Alas, my XA was relegated to the trash pile about a year and a half ago.

 I did pull the Stanton 681EEE-S out of the table and gave it to a friend who upgraded his table with it.

He was very pleased with it.

[AR55]

On 9/19/2021 at 11:18 AM, Aadams said:

"Mac watts" refers to the tendency of McIntosh to publish power ratings for products that can be as much as 30% below actual performance capability.

I know this is a little off topic, but I wanted to give some support to the those that believe that McIntosh amplifiers are conservatively rated.

I’m the original owner of a McIntosh MC7270 power amp with a rating of 270wpc into 2, 4 or 8 ohms.  A few years after I purchased the amp, I had the opportunity to have its rating confirmed at a McIntosh Amplifier Clinic run by McIntosh’s Dave O’Brien.  The following are the results of his tests:

• Confirmed the amp’s rms rated output of 270wpc @ a measured .015% distortion. 

• Measured a maximum rms output of 380wpc prior to the amp’s Power Guard circuit engaging. 

• Overdrove the amp by 6 dB (4 times its rated power) with a measured distortion of .25%.  The test simulated the overdrive caused by a music source.  The amp was fed 2 tones, 14 kHz and 15 kHz, with the input level adjusted to the amp’s rated power. The input level was then increased by 6dB and the IM & THD distortion measured.

Even with Power Guard, the MC7270 is probably too much power for an AR-3a.  My MC7270 originally powered a pair of 98LS’, but now it powers my AR-9LSi’s.  The 2 are advertised to handle up to 250wpc & 400wpc respectively.  For those that are unfamiliar with McIntosh amps, they have a protection circuit to prevent overload that McIntosh calls Power Guard:

“McIntosh designed and patented a circuit that prevents speaker clipping. Photo-optics react in 1/1000th of a second to regulate power levels to speaker, protecting the speakers and the amplifier.  A waveform comparison circuit continuously monitors both input and output signals. Power Guard dynamically adjusts the input level to avoid clipping while preventing harsh sounding distortion.”

Does Power Guard work?  It appears that it did for me.  A number of years ago I left my then 3 year old daughter alone in the living room with my system playing and the cabinet doors open.  Up to that point she followed her dad’s orders & never touched the system.  That day she didn’t.  A sudden very large increase in volume brought me rushing back into the room to find that she had turned the volume up all the way on my preamp.  The indicators for the MC7270’s Power Guard circuits were brightly lit and the sound level was painfully loud, but it was not distorted.  Fortunately, both the speakers (AR-98LS’) and the amp were undamaged.  I found my daughter hiding in our bedroom closet.  It scared her enough that she never messed with the preamp again.  She now owns those 98LS’.

[samberger0357]

3 minutes ago, AR55 said:

I know this is a little off topic, but I wanted to give some support to the those that believe that McIntosh amplifiers are conservatively rated.

I’m the original owner of a McIntosh MC7270 power amp with a rating of 270wpc into 2, 4 or 8 ohms.  A few years after I purchased the amp, I had the opportunity to have its rating confirmed at a McIntosh Amplifier Clinic run by McIntosh’s Dave O’Brien.  The following are the results of his tests:

• Confirmed the amp’s rms rated output of 270wpc @ a measured .015% distortion. 

• Measured a maximum rms output of 380wpc prior to the amp’s Power Guard circuit engaging. 

• Overdrove the amp by 6 dB (4 times its rated power) with a measured distortion of .25%.  The test simulated the overdrive caused by a music source.  The amp was fed 2 tones, 14 kHz and 15 kHz, with the input level adjusted to the amp’s rated power. The input level was then increased by 6dB and the IM & THD distortion measured.

Even with Power Guard, the MC7270 is probably too much power for an AR-3a.  My MC7270 originally powered a pair of 98LS’, but now it powers my AR-9LSi’s.  The 2 are advertised to handle up to 250wpc & 400wpc respectively.  For those that are unfamiliar with McIntosh amps, they have a protection circuit to prevent overload that McIntosh calls Power Guard:

“McIntosh designed and patented a circuit that prevents speaker clipping. Photo-optics react in 1/1000th of a second to regulate power levels to speaker, protecting the speakers and the amplifier.  A waveform comparison circuit continuously monitors both input and output signals. Power Guard dynamically adjusts the input level to avoid clipping while preventing harsh sounding distortion.”

Does Power Guard work?  It appears that it did for me.  A number of years ago I left my then 3 year old daughter alone in the living room with my system playing and the cabinet doors open.  Up to that point she followed her dad’s orders & never touched the system.  That day she didn’t.  A sudden very large increase in volume brought me rushing back into the room to find that she had turned the volume up all the way on my preamp.  The indicators for the MC7270’s Power Guard circuits were brightly lit and the sound level was painfully loud, but it was not distorted.  Fortunately, both the speakers (AR-98LS’) and the amp were undamaged.  I found my daughter hiding in our bedroom closet.  It scared her enough that she never messed with the preamp again.  She now owns those 98LS’.

 

Great story. Thanks.

[newandold]

10 minutes ago, AR55 said:

I know this is a little off topic, but I wanted to give some support to the those that believe that McIntosh amplifiers are conservatively rated.

I’m the original owner of a McIntosh MC7270 power amp with a rating of 270wpc into 2, 4 or 8 ohms.  A few years after I purchased the amp, I had the opportunity to have its rating confirmed at a McIntosh Amplifier Clinic run by McIntosh’s Dave O’Brien.  The following are the results of his tests:

• Confirmed the amp’s rms rated output of 270wpc @ a measured .015% distortion. 

• Measured a maximum rms output of 380wpc prior to the amp’s Power Guard circuit engaging. 

• Overdrove the amp by 6 dB (4 times its rated power) with a measured distortion of .25%.  The test simulated the overdrive caused by a music source.  The amp was fed 2 tones, 14 kHz and 15 kHz, with the input level adjusted to the amp’s rated power. The input level was then increased by 6dB and the IM & THD distortion measured.

Even with Power Guard, the MC7270 is probably too much power for an AR-3a.  My MC7270 originally powered a pair of 98LS’, but now it powers my AR-9LSi’s.  The 2 are advertised to handle up to 250wpc & 400wpc respectively.  For those that are unfamiliar with McIntosh amps, they have a protection circuit to prevent overload that McIntosh calls Power Guard:

“McIntosh designed and patented a circuit that prevents speaker clipping. Photo-optics react in 1/1000th of a second to regulate power levels to speaker, protecting the speakers and the amplifier.  A waveform comparison circuit continuously monitors both input and output signals. Power Guard dynamically adjusts the input level to avoid clipping while preventing harsh sounding distortion.”

Does Power Guard work?  It appears that it did for me.  A number of years ago I left my then 3 year old daughter alone in the living room with my system playing and the cabinet doors open.  Up to that point she followed her dad’s orders & never touched the system.  That day she didn’t.  A sudden very large increase in volume brought me rushing back into the room to find that she had turned the volume up all the way on my preamp.  The indicators for the MC7270’s Power Guard circuits were brightly lit and the sound level was painfully loud, but it was not distorted.  Fortunately, both the speakers (AR-98LS’) and the amp were undamaged.  I found my daughter hiding in our bedroom closet.  It scared her enough that she never messed with the preamp again.  She now owns those 98LS’.

It can be VERY unsettling, when an unexpected pair of hands get in the mix!

 I had something in a similar vein when my wife took over the controls of my over powered system back in the day.

1000 watts a channel @8ohm…. I arrived home and NO sound from my speakers would emerge. 
Long story short, I found both in-line MDX-2 fuses to protect the speakers were blown out.

I have no idea 🤷‍♂️ what happened (and I don’t want to know.)

Replaced the fuses and all was good with no damage (yay)