Thoughts on toe in regarding AR2a and 2ax

[JohnnyTheG]

I know that when Villchur and Kloss designed the early AR speakers, they were designed to be mounted horizontally and on a bookshelf, but that is not really possible in my apartment and thus i have my speakers on AR stands mounted vertically.  My question though is about whether or not is recommended that they be toed in at all.  I have 2a speakers that have been upgraded to 2ax speakers and I they are 8 feet apart and approximately 2 feet from the front wall.  My seating position is about 8 to 9 feet from the speakers.  I currently have them at a slight toe in where you can see the inside edge of the cabinets slightly.  I have read that early AR speakers are not meant to be that far from the front wall and not designed to be toed in.  I realize that this all subjective and placement is really whatever sounds best to your ears, but I wanted a good starting place in terms of what the designers intended and what is practical given my dimensions.

Thanks in advance

John

[Aadams]

2 hours ago, JohnnyTheG said:

My question though is about whether or not is recommended that they be toed in at all.

Ok, I'll go first.

AR's recommendation was to start with speakers 6ft apart and listen no closer than 3ft, which is the same as no greater than 45 degrees off axis.   Roy Allison's general recommendation for all loudspeakers was to listen no greater than 30 degrees off axis. 

Your setup as described above is around 45 degrees off axis without toe in, which is a bit much for a 2ax. 

Of course ears vary but my subjective opinion is, because you are not using the rear wall, I would recommend try toeing them in 45 degrees to put them on axis in relation to the listening position.

[JohnnyTheG]

This is a helpful recommendation.  Thanks Aadams!

[genek]

Distance from the back wall is going to affect your bass response more than your mid and HFs.

Best thing to do is try it. See how the toe-in affects your listening position and other locations in the room. If you never get up from your chair, my guess is you won't notice much of a difference, but if you walk around the room a lot you'll find that the "sweet spot" has become narrower.

[Aadams]

5 hours ago, JohnnyTheG said:

This a helpful recommendation.  Thanks Aadams!

Before someone else does it for me I need to correct my error.  Your setup as described is within the Roy Allison recommendation at around 26 degrees off axis, not 45 as I erroneously stated above.  I would still toe-in the speakers.

[JohnnyTheG]

Thanks guys.  Just want to check with @genek when you say the back wall you mean the wall behind my head correct?  I know it gets tricky because the front was is the wall you face while listening to music.

[genek]

I was actually thinking about the wall behind the speakers.

[JohnnyTheG]

I've always heard that moving the speakers away from the front wall (the wall behind the speakers) about 2 to 3 feet is best, but from what I am reading that is not true of vintage AR speakers.

[Aadams]

if you are in pursuit of free low distortion bass you could use walls and corners but you may not like other changes that can happen.  If they are currently toed-in 2ft from any wall and off the floor it will be difficult to improve what you are hearing from 80hz upward.  You should try it if it is convenient and low effort.

 

[genek]

AR speakers of the classic era were designed to deliver their best overall performance from a 2pi position (midway between ceiling and a standard 8ft celing, 4ft from corners, to produce a hemispherical output).

[JohnnyTheG]

1 hour ago, genek said:

AR speakers of the classic era were designed to deliver their best overall performance from a 2pi position (midway between ceiling and a standard 8ft celing, 4ft from corners, to produce a hemispherical output).

That's so interesting and it explains why my dad had them mounted flush against the wall back in the 60s when he owned them.

[newandold]

I grew up on the 2A (Dad). Got my own 2ax pair later on. I enjoyed them, especially because they were my own first pair of Hi Fi speakers.

They fell short, however and started searching for a bigger, more live sound.

My ears led me to the Allison:One, and I was forever hooked. I believe at the time the connection between AR and RA was purely coincidental.

The powerful sound and dispersion….there was no comparing.

 I maintained those systems from 1977 all the way up to 2012, when an EBAY opportunity gave me a shot at Allison’s Flagship IC20 and that was my last stop.

[JohnnyTheG]

Just to give a follow up to those who have given some very valuable suggestions to me, I finally got around to changing the position of my speakers so they would be pointing straight out instead of slightly toed in and I moved them back towards the rear wall and the change was dramatic.  I got a full stereo image with proper center imaging finally and there were big improvements in the mid bass response.  Who knew?  All these years I was missing out on how much better these speakers could have sounded.

 

Thanks everyone!

[newandold]

10 hours ago, JohnnyTheG said:

Just to give a follow up to those who have given some very valuable suggestions to me, I finally got around to changing the position of my speakers so they would be pointing straight out instead of slightly toed in and I moved them back towards the rear wall and the change was dramatic.  I got a full stereo image with proper center imaging finally and there were big improvements in the mid bass response.  Who knew?  All these years I was missing out on how much better these speakers could have sounded.

 

Thanks everyone!

I lived with both the 2a and 2ax just like that neither toed in. 
The distance between was the only thing I played around with on the 2ax.

The 2a’s we’re Always planted in furniture 

[kryten79]

Now THIS is a very helpful thread 👍