Solen Capacitors

[johnieo]

Forum members have commented on the "noise" or "grain" they hear when using Solen capacitors. These comments range from denouncing Solen as terribly grainy, to stating that Dayton and GE caps are terrible and were replaced with Solen.

To my knowledge, there are two readily available sources of Solen polpropylene caps. Parts Express sells their 400 V (PB) style, whereas Madisound sells their 250 V (PA) devices. The Forum remarks did not distinguish between these two very different designs. Which style was liked, disliked, and for what application; woofer, mid- or hi-range x-o? The 400 V devices have thicker dielectric than 250 V and in theory, should be less noisy, because thin polymers tend to stretch more easily and have more crystallization, and because arc-spraying low-resistance end contacts is more difficult.

This becomes an issue as I personally am having heartburn in dealing with PE. Upon ordering two caps, I am told that they will be shipped UPS for $7.70 and be delivered in 4 days. When informed that USPS can deliver 12 oz for $3.85 in two days, the response is "95% of our shipments are UPS"--a self-fulfilling prophecy! Twice PE shipped light-weight orders USPS, but charged $7.70 for shipping.

So where else can can I buy 400 V Solen?

[r_laski]

Hi John,

Have to agree about PE’s shipping rate policy. Sears is the same way when ordering repair parts. Only thing I don’t like about doing business with them. I usually wait to order from them until I have enough things to order to “justify” paying the shipping. I hate it when the shipping costs more than the part I’m buying.

>>So where else can I buy 400 V Solen?<<

Here are three other possible sources:

1) Buy direct from Solen in Canada –

http://www.solen.ca/

2) Parts Connexion in Canada

http://www.partsconnexion.com/

3) Michael Percy audio in Nevada City, CA

http://www.percyaudio.com/

In addition to PA and PB Solens, these sources have PPE –630V caps, which are supposed to have the best sonics. I didn’t check/compare prices, shipping rates, etc. from these sources. Just wanted to give you sources I was aware of.

BTW – I used a combination of 400V Solens and North Creek Zens in an AR-90 crossover and the result was very smooth. I didn’t notice any “graininess.”

Rich

[Guest Bret]

John,

My expression of horror at the harshness and graininess of the Solens installed in my 10pi's were with the "PB" part from Parts Express. I did, however, in a later post remark that they were "settling in" (read: forming) nicely.

Today I would be hard pressed to tell them apart from some fresh NPEs unless I was allowed to listen to a specific recording and A/B them. The "sound" of the Solens continues to mellow. I wonder if that continues indefinitely (at a decreasing rate) and before too many years I'll have "mud."

I wish I had the ability to form all future capacitors off the crossover. It is a very long, almost painful, experience to form those 400v Solens using audio signals only. You would think that a 250v capacitor would be more than adequate to replace a 50v, particularly since (hopefully) the capacitor would never see anything approaching its rated voltage.

Would you expect the 250v version to form more quickly than the 400v?

Can you take a minute and explain how a thicker dielectric could be expected to be quieter than a thinner one? It is counter-intuitive considering there is more opportunity for a thicker dielectric to contain "crystals" or "pockets" or other things which allegedly cause problems.

BTW - I've decided that for myself and my ears there is no penalty for using metalized polypropylene capacitors. Whether that is because there really is no penalty, or because my hearing is inadequate, I cannot say.

Bret

[Carlspeak]

My advice to all those folks upgrading caps with Solen, or other PP or metallized film types, is to buy an audio test disc that has a pink noise track. Put it on your CD player and set it to repeat play that one track when you leave the house in the morning and let it play all day. That will break it in much faster and smooth it out as many of you have described. The same technique can be applied to break in of new drivers as well. Especially tweeters.

Remember all.... it's the music that's most important!!

Carl, The SpeakerDoctor

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers.

[Guest ARnut]

I've read on another forum that KimberCaps work very well in crossover networks. Has anyone had experience with them? I bought my AR9s in 1978 and have never upgraded the xovers or internal wiring. I think it's about time.

[DavidR]

My advice to all those folks upgrading caps with Solen, or other PP or metallized film types, is to buy an audio test disc that has a pink noise track. Put it on your CD player and set it to repeat play that one track when you leave the house in the morning and let it play all day. That will break it in much faster and smooth it out as many of you have described. The same technique can be applied to break in of new drivers as well. Especially tweeters.

Remember all.... it's the music that's most important!!

Carl, The SpeakerDoctor

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers.

Carl, Do you still adhere to PP caps having to "settle in" and is playing a pink noise necessary vs just playing music?

[Carlspeak]

Yes, caps or the owner of them break in over time. Pink noise is simply more efficient than playing music.

[DavidR]

Thank you Carl.

I recently re-capped my AR91s using Dayton. I almost went with Erse but ended up using Dayton. All of the Daytons were pretty much spot on. Much talk about PP caps making speakers 'bright' made me hesitate using PP caps for a long time. I don't think 'bright' is the right word. They do make the sound cleaner, clearer. "Bright" was making me think harsh, blaring sound. I am quite taken by the sound I want to do my AR90s. The 91s now sound balanced the way they should. I can think of only one song I've listened to that came across as a bit shrill.

I'm considering Erse for my 90s or a mix of Erse and Dayton or go all Solen 400v. I recently posted on AK with a member who said he has not experienced any grainy sound ( a common complaint w/ Solen) with the Solens that you installed for him in his 90s.

[Carlspeak]

The increased 'brightness' some have noted going from NPE's to film caps is related to the extent the NPE's had increased their Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR). If it was a lot,, then yes, a 1-2 ohm ESR in the NPE vs a 0.1 ohm ESR with the film cap will definitely be noticed. In reality, the degradation of NPE's over time varies all over the place which is why some notice the brightening and some don't.

ERSE offers 2 types of film caps (note they have minimum order $). The puls-X is has polypropylene film and very low characteriatic ESR. The Pex (yellow ones) are made with mylar film and have relatively higher ESR more in the range of NPEs. So, if you don't want that brightness increase use the Pex types which offer lifetime of NPE type service without the degradation.

[rrcrain]

DavidR,

I recapped my AR90's close to 10 years ago strictly with Solen 400V caps, so I thought I'd share my 2 cents.

Carl is correct, Solens are definitely brighter and do require time to settle/burn in. Today, I'm happy with the results, but I'd have left the switch assembly in place knowing what I learned after it was to late.

After rebuilding the crossovers, I discovered one upper mid driver was dead (voice coil out of the magnet gap - moving damage is the best guess). The old crossover had drifted so far out of spec the upper mids in both speakers apparently weren't receiving a signal.

I did replace the large cap in the bass section using to caps in paralell. Better bass definition as a result.

[DavidR]

Thanks for sharing your experience Richard. I'm very happy with the results of my 250V Daytons in the 91s but Dayton doesn't have all the exact values for the 90 and I could get that using some Erse 250V PP. I think the 400V would be difficult to install on the upper board (size issue) working thru the woofer holes.

At this point the only Solens I'm considering is the 80uF and paralleling a 150+200uF. The cost of the 350uF circuit is $200 for the pair of speakers and may force me use NPEs. I suppose I could also use an Erse 82uF in place of the 80uF Solen and save some more money.

[stupidhead]

Interesting topic. Here is a thread I started on AK on a similar topic.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=630935

[DavidR]

Interesting thread. I like what Roy C added. It puts a whole other layer of mysticism into the mix. I've heard lots of good things about Clarity caps. At some point you have to ask yourself (at least I do) do the end results justify the money.

And then you have threads like this one by Pete B: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=1431&hl=myths

[der]

Interesting thread. I like what Roy C added. It puts a whole other layer of mysticism into the mix. I've heard lots of good things about Clarity caps. At some point you have to ask yourself (at least I do) do the end results justify the money.

And then you have threads like this one by Pete B: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=1431&hl=myths

I ask myself that all the time and the answer is always the same.