8 Ohms tweeter, Pots or L-Pads, AR-3a Limited

[mluong303]

The Acoustic Research AR Limited 3 is the rarest and most expensive AR speakers ever made. The system was designed by David Day Sequerra and his team of Engineers. The goal was to ¡°Combine the power of dynamic drivers with the delicacy associated with electrostatics¡±. The speaker system sold for $7000 in 1994. Although they are the best sounding AR speaker ever manufactured, they are the least known AR speaker model to any AR enthusiast.

The AR Limited 3 speaker system is a 3 way four driver speaker system that includes an open MTM/SRA (Symmetrical Radiation Array) design, plus AR Limited 3 acoustic suspension woofer in its own enclosure. The tweeter and midrange drivers are made by Dynaudio of Denmark. The tweeters is square flange Dynaudio D260 1" soft dome custom made for AR. The midranges are Dynaudio D76 3" soft domes. The MTM array is mounted on an open baffle to ensure freedom from dispersion anomalies. The 12" AR Limited 3 MkII woofer are heavy-duty, cast frame, fabric laminated, poly cone with rubber surround and focus field magnet structure.

Each side has 2 modules. The top module houses the MTM array and the Mids / Hi crossover board. The lower acoustic suspension module contains the woofer and the woofer crossover board with genuine long hair lamp wool. There are 6 heavy-duty gold plated binding posts, 4 for bi-wired and the top 2 for connection to the Mids / Hi crossover board. The bass module is extremely well built and heavily braced internally. The crossover boards feature very heavy gauge air-cored inductors and expensive polypropylene capacitors. The optional piano lacquered hard wood siding with black metal screen mesh grill is included.

AR Limited 3 speaker system specifications:

System Type: Dynamic 3-way acoustic suspension

Drivers: 1¡± soft dome tweeter, (2) 3¡± dome midranges, 12¡± MkII polypropylene woofer.

Impedance: 4 ohms

Power handling: 200 watts continuous, 800 watts peak

Crossover: 300 Hz and 2500 Hz

Sensitivity is 88 dB for 2.83v @ 1 meter

Dimensions: 52¡± x 16¡± x 14¡± with grills

Weight: Approx 200 lbs.

The speaker system is in mint condition and sound superb. All drivers are new old stocks. To me, this is the best sounding and space age design AR speakers ever built which can easily compare with other Hi-End speakers in the market for $13,000 range. I have been hold onto this last set of AR Limited 3 until now (How many sets do I owned? If I tell you, you wouldn't believe me anyway!), but now is the time to let go my personal AR Limited 3 for fraction of the cost to the lucky person who has the money, space and time to enjoy the music. The Mids/Hi drivers and crossovers were connected with AudioQuest 14 gauge pure copper hookup wires with WBT silver content solderer for maximum signal transfer. Local pick up preferred, I will deliver the speakers to meet with you within 80 miles. If you are interested, contact me directly to work out the details.

Minh Luong

mluong303@aol.com

[mluong303]

~{!0~}The cabinet in high-gloss oak is definitely the later Cello Amati-Pro version enclosure, and I believe the other cabinet is actually an early Cello Amati cabinet. This cabinet would have used the AR 12-inch woofer (I believe that the Tonegen woofer was used) with a version of the AR-9 midrange and tweeter; the Amati-Pro version used OEM drivers that were similar, but not AR-made. I believe that AR built the early version cabinets for Cello, but I am not sure about the Amati-Pro version. Note that the driver holes are rounted-out, AR-style, in the early version, but the drivers rest on the outside of the cabinet in the Pro version -- more eclectic, yet cheaper. T-Nuts were most likely used on both cabinets (but the T-Nut holes haven't been cut for the midrange drivers on the Pro cabinet at this point for some reason); definitely on the AR-built version. Both cabinet-styles show the two slots in each midrange hole to allow for the tab connectors of the new-style, back-wired 1-1/2-inch midrange drivers that came along around 1974, so this feature might have been universal in all of their cabinets. Minh L might know this as he is somewhat of an expert on the Amati variation of the original AR-LST.

--Tom Tyson~{!1~}

=============================================================================================

Hi, Tom:

The original Cello Amati speaker cabinets and all three drivers were built by AR in MA. The cabinet feels much stronger due to center and side braced from front to back panels and without all five routed holes (one on the front and 2 on each side panel for the driver~{!/~}s connection) which weaken the solidness of the driver~{!/~}s panels. The original Cello Amati drivers were based on the AR 10Pi/AR-11 designs but slightly modified base on Mark Levinson~{!/~}s requirement and hand built by the AR experts in MA. Mark was in and out of the AR plan as an VIP in the earlier years of Cello even up to the time when the AR hi-end Limited components and Limited 3 speaker system were designed and manufacturing. If you look closely of the crossover boards of the AR Limited 3 speakers, the crossover components and drivers used, you will see the similarity between the AR Limited 3 speakers and later Cello speakers. This is the time frame where Cello switched the entire Cello speaker lines to Dynaudio drivers from AR drivers. The Amati crossover was modified based on AR-LST by one of Mark Levinson~{!/~}s electronics/speaker expert who I still trying to locate for myself and should anyone has a lead, please email me the name and contact information ( mluong303@aol.com )~{!#~}He is what I would call the real Expert who loves AR-3a and AR-LST.

The Pro Amati speakers used 3/4~{!1~} soft dome tweeters, 2~{!1~} soft dome midranges and 12~{!1~} woofer all made by Dynaudio of Denmark. The driver faceplates are designed in a way that they will be flushed nicely with the baffle boards so routed opening holes are not necessary. The tweeters and woofer mounting used T-nuts and machine screws but the midranges use regular wood screws for a good reason. If T-nut and machine screws is a better alternative, they had already been done. Being Cheap and cutting corner had never been Mark Levinson style when He was with Cello. He wanted to make the Pro Amati speakers sell for more money($16,500 a pair compare to $10,000 for the original Amati) and not cutting cost to sell more in quantity.

Minh Luong

[tysontom]

>This may had been the earliest prototype AR-1 woofer?

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/588.jpg

No, this was defitely not the AR prototype, but it does have the characteristic flat-side mounting flange.

The first AR prototype woofer was the Western Electric 728B. Villchur chose the WE-728B because it could be easily dissassembled with screws, and he purchased two of them (a student in his audio class at NYU got them at a discount) in order to mount one in an infinite baffle (in-wall location) and another in the 1.7 cu. ft. sealed, acoustic-suspension enclosure to show the superiority of the acoustic-suspension system. Both of these woofers were identical except that Villchur changed the surround and spider suspension on one to lower the resonance (to approximately 43-Hz box resonance) and allow the speaker to make longer axial excursions. The in-wall woofer was left stock at its 60 Hz. resonance.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/585.jpg

At the beginning of 1954, Henry Kloss had built the first production prototype of the AR-1 woofer, and the woofer resembled the versions we see today. The frame was a sand-cast 3/8-inch-thick aluminum casting, and the cone was straight-sided with a treated-cloth pleated surround. Ironically, the Villchur's patent showed the first half-roll surround, but Kloss felt the pleated surround would be better and more stable, so the first versions were built in this fashion. Villchur decided that Henry's version with the pleated surround and a version with the half-round surround should be compared as to harmonic distortion, and Villchur's half-round version easily won. All subsequent versions were made with the half-round suspension. Although not patented, the AR half-round surround is thought to have been first-ever used in a high-fidelity loudspeaker.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/586.jpg

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/587.jpg

--Tom Tyson

[mluong303]

A pair of Light Oak Mark Levinson’s Cello Amati MkII speakers in excellent condition with all AR drivers in like new condition and great working order. Both woofers have new foam surrounds. These MkII Amatis have back panels fully veneered. The Cello Amati speaker was based on the original Acoustic Research AR-LST speaker design but modified based on Mark Levinson's requirement with best crossover parts and wires available at the time. The cabinets were better constructed and braced internally. All the drivers were custom made by AR for Cello without the metal mesh and fiberglass filter. The crossovers used even better caps from Germany and Swiss made cables. The result is even more transparency in the high range and fuller body in the midrange in comparison to the original Cello Amati speakers. The original grills were lost during moving and replacements with new AR fabric were made afterward as shown in the picture. There is one small ding underneath the far left hand corner and three small scratches on top of one speaker. If your wife allow you to break your Piggy Bank, then drop me a line at mluong303@aol.com (security issue is clear for this email address).

Minh Luong

[mluong303]

"I am also down for a heart transplant as well."

Hi, Vern

I am sorry to hear about your health issue. I would like to wish you a Healthy and a Happy New Year. I just saw your post searching on the Forum which I don't do as much these days due to the heat arise lately here and there and I don't want to be picked on as the next person... I only like to tell the truth. Unfortunately the truth hurt most of the time and not as easily being digested as sugar coated and buttered up facts...

"I did ask if they can do a brain transplant, but they said I would get a woman's brain and come back with an attitude."

Well, you may want to re considered your option since women with trained ears do have better perception, accurate and sensitive hearing than Men who happen to be 95% in the HiFi domain who most often believe in "Size does matter" like Godzilla, Speakers, Amps, Egos & you know What...

"I said, "Acoustic Research," then I thought about it, should I have said, JBL"

Yes, you should. Then you will understand why people dislike AR speaker who feel their music collection sounded better with JBL L-100 or 4311 in comparison to the AR-3a... Many of those recordings were mix and cut using JBL speakers as monitors back then... I like both AR and JBL speakers. They are like orange and apple. Depend on the source (music or movie) and electronics (high power two channel amp or low power Japanese multi channel AV receiver), I will pick one over the other.

"I told him that I have AR-LST's and he brought up Amati's."

Victoria Secret super model looks Sexy but you better of stick with your college sweetheart's memory. Be happy with your AR-LSTs at the moment and if you ever hit the Lottory then I would suggest you to pick up both the Amatis and the Super Model for a test drive... Both of them will increase your heart beat for sure and I promise you will have so much Fun you totally forget about your health issue...

"I certainly don't want to give up hifi."

Neither do I. I will continue my AR speakers journey until I own the Cello Amati Pro to complete my learning curve... HiFi hobby to me is not relaxing at all but intense and expensive! However it is fun and I enjoy it...

Pick up the following recordings when you have a chance. They sounded great with AR-LST speakers. Enjoy.

Eagle / Hell freeze is over CD ----- "Hotel California"

the Best of Laura Branigan CD --- "the Lucky One"

the Best of Billy Ocean CD -------- " Lover Boy "

Carol Kidd CD ----------------------- " When I Dream "

Also, I would like to Thank Mark for his efforts for hosting this infomative Web site to keep us all connected and learn from each other.

Best Regards and Happy New Year to All,

Minh Luong

[dynaco_dan]

>"I am also down for a heart transplant as well."

>

>Hi, Vern

>

>I am sorry to hear about your health issue. I would like to

>wish you a Healthy and a Happy New Year. I just saw your post

>searching on the Forum which I don't do as much these days due

>to the heat arise lately here and there and I don't want to be

>picked on as the next person... I only like to tell the truth.

>Unfortunately the truth hurt most of the time and not as

>easily being digested as sugar coated and buttered up facts...

>

>

>"I did ask if they can do a brain transplant, but they said I

>would get a woman's brain and come back with an attitude."

>

>Well, you may want to re considered your option since women

>with trained ears do have better perception, accurate and

>sensitive hearing than Men who happen to be 95% in the HiFi

>domain who most often believe in "Size does matter" like

>Godzilla, Speakers, Amps, Egos & you know What...

>

>"I said, "Acoustic Research," then I thought about it, should

>I have said, JBL"

>

>Yes, you should. Then you will understand why people dislike

>AR speaker who feel their music collection sounded better with

>JBL L-100 or 4311 in comparison to the AR-3a... Many of those

>recordings were mix and cut using JBL speakers as monitors

>back then... I like both AR and JBL speakers. They are like

>orange and apple. Depend on the source (music or movie) and

>electronics (high power two channel amp or low power Japanese

>multi channel AV receiver), I will pick one over the other.

>

>"I told him that I have AR-LST's and he brought up Amati's."

>

>Victoria Secret super model looks Sexy but you better of stick

>with your college sweetheart's memory. Be happy with your

>AR-LSTs at the moment and if you ever hit the Lottory then I

>would suggest you to pick up both the Amatis and the Super

>Model for a test drive... Both of them will increase your

>heart beat for sure and I promise you will have so much Fun

>you totally forget about your health issue...

>

>"I certainly don't want to give up hifi."

>

>Neither do I. I will continue my AR speakers journey until I

>own the Cello Amati Pro to complete my learning curve... HiFi

>hobby to me is not relaxing at all but intense and expensive!

>However it is fun and I enjoy it...

>

>Pick up the following recordings when you have a chance. They

>sounded great with AR-LST speakers. Enjoy.

>

>Eagle / Hell freeze is over CD ----- "Hotel California"

>the Best of Laura Branigan CD --- "the Lucky One"

>the Best of Billy Ocean CD -------- " Lover Boy "

>Carol Kidd CD ----------------------- " When I Dream "

>

>Also, I would like to Thank Mark for his efforts for hosting

>this infomative Web site to keep us all connected and learn

>from each other.

>

>Best Regards and Happy New Year to All,

>Minh Luong

Hi Minh;

Thank you, Minh.

Nice to hear from you again.

Thanks for the humour.

I'll add these CD's to my database as well, thank you.

Next year will be a great year here, as new members contribute questions and answers to the many interesting topics.

For those not knowing much about pacemakers there is a wealth of information if you google, "pacemaker".

Only about 2.7 million hits.

Do not go to the, Quadrant (spel?), I believe, anyways Consumer Reports, had a re-call list from the correctly spelled company this year and our local newspaper had the list published as well.

I did download the information from the correctly named website, and printed it out to take to the doctor that was going to do the implant.

Doctor JBL (Hartsfield) said, when I showed him the printout, "oh, we don't use that brand".

Thank goodness for me.

For those of you who may be in need of one, don't get all worked up over it.

I was getting scared the last few days before the surgery.

I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to finish unpacking my stereo system and complete some of my ongoing stereo projects.

What would happen to my LST's and 4X's was another thought.

The actual surgery was about 2 hours long and after one hour later I was up and really anxious to go home to read from this website.

If King Kong had opened here one evening earlier, I would have gone to see it instead of going home.

I was fretting over nothing.

I was trying to keep joking in the surgery and the staff were all saying this was their first time too.

I did forget to ask the doctor not to say, oops.

The night before the surgery, I asked my daughter to felt mark a Healthy Heart symbol on my stomach and a big happy face on my chest for laughs.

Sure gave the nurses a good laugh anyways.

All the very best to you and yours in 2006.

[mluong303]

I am no expert and really don't want to step on any one's toe. I just want to correct some information that I know you can not base on the old print out from AR or comment from well known reviewers since people do make mistakes and the hardest part is to admit it and correct it so others will not being mislead and saying the wrong thing over and over again!

The posted AR-11 crossover schematic in the library is wrong and should be deleted and update with the corrected drawing. The 72uF & 50uF caps should be in parallel to form 122uF which later on being replaced by a single 120uF cap. The is a fold mark on this schematic print out that the paper had been scrubbed at the folded edge which white out the left half on the "8" at 2.85uF along with all the connection along that folding line later being reconnected by sloppy pen drawing which is clearly shown if you looking at the schematic carefully to see what I mean. The #9 coil measured between 2.80-2.86mH.

The internal volume of AR-3 and AR-3a is less than 1.45 cu/ft, not 1.7 cu/ft as claimed by AR. If anyone willing to measure his own AR-3/3a speaker outside dimension minus 3/4" wall thickness plus the set back of 1" front baffle and the internal braced studs and the huge magnet and capacitors physical dimension that eat up the space.

The crossover point of AR-3a speaker has always been 575Hz including the Limited AR-3a in the '90. The 525Hz crossover point is for the AR-10Pi & AR-11 speakers.

The Japanese made Tonegen AR 12" woofers were made for the Limited AR-3a speakers in early '90 and serve as replacement driver for the AR-10pi, AR-11, AR-9, AR-91, AR-9LS & AR-9LSi, AR-58S & 58Bxi speakers. They are very well made with tight quality controlled and supposedly with same specification of the 12" woofer originally made in the US for these speakers. They can be used for the original AR-3a and AR-LST speakers but will sound slightly different due to the stiffer spider and as new woofers in general. If you want to be critical then I would definitely suggest buying a pair of original AR woofers from the AR-3a or AR-LST on eBay to match your expectation. By cutting the spider to loosen up the suspension of the newer AR 12" woofers and hope for matching the old AR-12" woofers is a waste of money, time and efforts!

I don't think the tweeters, midranges and woofers on the AR-303 were made by Tonegen since the name had been vanished and being bought out by a bigger speaker driver manufacturer by then. All the drivers including the crossovers for the entire 1994 AR Classic series speakers were Made in Taiwan. All the drivers with shrunken magnets and cheap crossovers had totally piss off the Hong Kong market which happen to have the biggest supporting group for AR speakers in the Far East for three decades! Very few AR-303 classic line speakers were sold in Hong Kong and at the end even Ming Fat company who was the importer of AR HiFi components for few decades turn belly up and disappeared from the industry! Never under estimate the consuming power of the Chinese. They know quality stuffs and always willing to spend their hard earning Money if they know they are not being cheated. They did compare the AR-303 next to the '90 Limited AR-3a speakers and concluded the Limited AR-3a to be a better sounding speakers in listening test. Even thought the AR-303 has 3/4" tweeter, 1.5" midrange and 12" woofer like the original AR-3a or AR-11 etc., they are all 6 Ohms drivers. Even if you are willing to trim the AR-303 woofer frame with two straight cuts on the left and right sides to fit it into the AR-3a woofer opening hole. It will sound further off compare to the AR-11 woofer stuffed into the AR-3a cabinet! I know a friend who had done that so I am not just make up the story to be Mister Who know everything... You think the Tonegen woofer has stiff spider? Wait until you feel the stiffness of the AR-303 spider... They are definitely not compatible woofers.

Minh Luong

[mluong303]

This is strictly my own preference and listening result in my listening environment. If they sound reasonable and not too expensive to take a chance then try them out and hopefully they will work for you.

If your speaker cable is less than 15 feet each side then stay with 14 gauge cables. I like Kimber Kable 4TC and they do terminated with factory spade or banana connectors. If you like to save few bucks then go for the 4VS which is not far off from 4TC. DH Labs T14 is very transparent on high frequency but a bit lean on bass. I generally stay away from 12 gauge cables since I only need less than 8 feet per side and the thicker cables just not sounds right to me.

If your stacked AR-LST speakers are against the back wall, then stacked them head to head so all the tweeters are close by together. If your stacked AR-LST are off the back wall and you don't play too loud then they are better of sitting one one top of the other the normal position with tweeters on top and woofer on bottom for both. You just have to try it out yourself to hear which combo work best in your room with the music materials and loudness you normally listen to. There is no definite rule that you have to follow. Every one has his/her own listening preference, hearing sensitivity, personal believe and level of sophistication and the most important thing is self confidence and knowing what you are listening to and what you are looking for.

Fusing your AR speakers is not a bad idea but I would rather suggest people to invest or upgrade for newer and decent power amps since they are not that expensive anymore in the used market and with good amount of clean power, the chance of burn out tweeters and midranges are minimal. Adcom, Acurus, Aragon, Carver, NAD, Parasound, Rotel of 125-200w/ch are good for all AR speakers.

If you believe in 18 gauge zip cord for table lamp sounds the same as regular speaker cables and all Amps are created and sounded equally only in different of w/ch output whether they are expensive US made or Japanese '70 receivers, then disregard this posting since I am no Expert but just trying to share my experience and hopefully people can elevate their listening pleasure to another level.

Enjoy the Music and have Fun.

Minh Luong

[tysontom]

>The posted AR-11 crossover schematic in the library is wrong

>and should be deleted and update with the corrected drawing.

>The 72uF & 50uF caps should be in parallel to form 122uF which

>later on being replaced by a single 120uF cap. The is a fold

>mark on this schematic print out that the paper had been

>scrubbed at the folded edge which white out the left half on

>the "8" at 2.85uF along with all the connection along that

>folding line later being reconnected by sloppy pen drawing

>which is clearly shown if you looking at the schematic

>carefully to see what I mean. The #9 coil measured between

>2.80-2.86mH.

This is correct that the two capacitors in the AR-11 were replaced with a single 120 mfd capacitor somewhere in the 1976 time-frame. The AR-11 coil, AR Part Number 805009, is a 2.85 mH, 325-1/2-turn coil with a tolerance of 0.085 mH, which makes the range from 2.765 to 2.935 mH -- close to your prediction. This coil, as with all AR coils from the period, was wound using #17 PE Copper Wire.

>

>The internal volume of AR-3 and AR-3a is less than 1.45 cu/ft,

>not 1.7 cu/ft as claimed by AR. If anyone willing to measure

>his own AR-3/3a speaker outside dimension minus 3/4" wall

>thickness plus the set back of 1" front baffle and the

>internal braced studs and the huge magnet and capacitors

>physical dimension that eat up the space.

>

The exact internal volume stated as 1.7 cu. ft. (of the AR-1/AR-3/AR-3a box) is really not critical, as the speaker system was optimized for the 1.48 approx cu. ft. box size, discounting the braces, drivers and crossover. The 1.7 cu. ft. dimension came, I believe, from the original prototype unit, a 19 x 19 x 11 inch enclosure that Villchur used for the first acoustic-suspension woofer. Taking the panel thickness into account and the front and rear baffle, but discounting the braces and magnet intrusion, the dimension is close to 1.68 cu. ft., rounded up equals 1.7 cu. ft. That dimension stuck throughout much of AR's literature until somewhere around the AR-10Pi/AR-11, where it was correctly stated as 1.48 cu. ft. The important thing is the resonance frequency and the "Q" and so forth, and those numbers were optimized for a 12-inch acoustic-suspension woofer.

--Tom Tyson

[mluong303]

Happy New Year, Tom

Thanks for the reply. If the internal volume is not critical whether it is 1.48 or 1.7 cu/ft. Why are people make adding 2 oz extra or less fiberglass stuffing sound like a big deal? said that it will effect what the bass sounds like? Please educate me to clear the Fog(smoke) in my head. I do believe you the internal volume may not be a big issue since the same woofer had been used in various cabinets with different internal volume like AR-11 & AR-58 which are about the same size, the bigger AR-91 and even bigger AR-610B which marketed and sold in Hong Kong and Far East region only.

"There actually is a good reason why thin wire, and for some tube amps would sound better with AR speakers."

Hi, Pete

Thanks for bringing these up and I had been trying to understand why the Hong Kong AR owners believe more in the latter? Please explain to us more in details and in slower pace for both subjects. I had read your post but I do need after school tutors on technical stuffs!

"There is no way your going to select a fuse that will pass enough power for the woofer and protect the tweeter at the same time."

Loud and Clear statement, Thankyou.

Minh Luong

[mluong303]

Someone may want to get a hold of these decent AR-9 cabinets before they headed to the land fill...!

eBay Item number: 5851208900

Minh Luong

863.txt

[mluong303]

(Incidentally, KEF is now owned by Gold Peak of Hong Kong.)

" Didn't know that, sad to hear. Pete B. "

Please don't look down on Chinese! The world should be grateful of that the Hong Kong investors had decided to own KEF. If it wasn't the decision to save KEF so the company can continue to supply the T-27 tweeters and B-110 woofers for the BBC LS3/5A speakers and to produce the Limited Edition KEF's very own Piano Lacquer BBC LS3/5A speakers, KEF has pretty much already phase out of the scene more than a decade ago...

There are many big name European drivers and American Hi End speakers are now made in China. So don't be surprised the high priced European drivers that you like or the super expensive speakers that being reviewed in The Absolute Sound or Stereophile turn out to be a product made in China...

Minh Luong

[Pete B]

As I have said before to others you ought to ask before jumping to conclusions, you don't know me. Don't spin my statements to suit your cheap shot. And drop the implications about my character, I find it offensive. My point was more about the heritage of the company, not who bought it.

As far as looking down toward others, you ought to look in the mirror, you don't even have the courtesy to answer my question when you in fact interject into my discussion:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...id=&page=4#7112

So let's drop it OK?

Why do you put your replies to other threads in this thread?

Pete B.

>(Incidentally, KEF is now owned by Gold Peak of Hong Kong.)

>

>" Didn't know that, sad to hear. Pete B. "

>

>Please don't look down on Chinese! The world should be

>grateful of that the Hong Kong investors had decided to own

>KEF. If it wasn't the decision to save KEF so the company can

>continue to supply the T-27 tweeters and B-110 woofers for the

>BBC LS3/5A speakers and to produce the Limited Edition KEF's

>very own Piano Lacquer BBC LS3/5A speakers, KEF has pretty

>much already phase out of the scene more than a decade ago...

>

>There are many big name European drivers and American Hi End

>speakers are now made in China. So don't be surprised the

>high priced European drivers that you like or the super

>expensive speakers that being reviewed in The Absolute Sound

>or Stereophile turn out to be a product made in China...

>

>Minh Luong

[mluong303]

" So let's drop it OK? "

OK, forever and ever.

Minh Luong

[dynaco_dan]

>" So let's drop it OK? "

>

>OK, forever and ever.

>

>Minh Luong

Hi Fellas;

Please do not make this an uncomfortable place to be.

Everyone that writes on this website is a contributor and has a right to be heard.

I have read writings and commentaries from both of you over the months I have been ill.

You and everyone else has their individual points of view.

I believe the sentiment here isn't where the speakers are being made, but rather they are not being made by their founding fathers and in their original US factories.

Minh, we are having trouble accepting the loss of the founding fathers, such as, but not limited to Henry Kloss.

I am a Canadian but, Roy Allison, Henry Kloss and Edgar Vilchur are like family to me.

As a young adult I have grown up with these names at the tip of my tongue even though I have never met them.

On this website I have met none of you personally, but do enjoy reading your thoughts and opinions very much.

We have different budgets and tastes but we are all here to learn or to help others learn.

Yes, I may not understand, or even agree with either of you at times, but I am still learning about hifi.

We also must accept that manufacturers must be cost effective to make a profit, and stay in business and so going off continent to manufacture, seems to be the only choice at the moment.

Have a nice day.

[mluong303]

Take Care, Vern

...and So Long Everyone!

Minh Luong

[dynaco_dan]

>Take Care, Vern

>

>...and So Long Everyone!

>

>Minh Luong

>

Hi Minh;

We all need you, not just me.

You have so much to offer us.

[Pete B]

Vern, it is nice that you find this to be a relaxing place to visit, I suppose it can be somewhat like reading a magazine but better in that it is interactive and those who want can contribute.

I have noticed you and others here mention your health problems and I have taken note about them and you are all in my thoughts for a good recovery.

I mainly come here for technical interests, and we each have our reasons which is fine.

It is clear that this is a pro AR site. I'd think one would want to know the design warts and all. And the statements by some that it is the best woofer or speaker ever designed are just asking to be challenged, so I did. I look at every design for the good and the bad, that's what I find interesting. It seems that this makes others uncomfortable which is unfortunate.

Take care,

Pete B.

>Hi Fellas;

>

>Please do not make this an uncomfortable place to be.

>

>Everyone that writes on this website is a contributor and has

>a right to be heard.

>

>I have read writings and commentaries from both of you over

>the months I have been ill.

>

>You and everyone else has their individual points of view.

>

>I believe the sentiment here isn't where the speakers are

>being made, but rather they are not being made by their

>founding fathers and in their original US factories.

>

>Minh, we are having trouble accepting the loss of the founding

>fathers, such as, but not limited to Henry Kloss.

>

>I am a Canadian but, Roy Allison, Henry Kloss and Edgar

>Vilchur are like family to me.

>

>As a young adult I have grown up with these names at the tip

>of my tongue even though I have never met them.

>

>On this website I have met none of you personally, but do

>enjoy reading your thoughts and opinions very much.

>

>We have different budgets and tastes but we are all here to

>learn or to help others learn.

>

>Yes, I may not understand, or even agree with either of you at

>times, but I am still learning about hifi.

>

>We also must accept that manufacturers must be cost effective

>to make a profit, and stay in business and so going off

>continent to manufacture, seems to be the only choice at the

>moment.

>

>Have a nice day.

[dynaco_dan]

>Vern, it is nice that you find this to be a relaxing place to

>visit, I suppose it can be somewhat like reading a magazine

>but better in that it is interactive and those who want can

>contribute.

>I have noticed you and others here mention your health

>problems and I have taken note about them and you are all in

>my thoughts for a good recovery.

>I mainly come here for technical interests, and we each have

>our reasons which is fine.

>

>It is clear that this is a pro AR site. I'd think one would

>want to know the design warts and all. And the statements by

>some that it is the best woofer or speaker ever designed are

>just asking to be challenged, so I did. I look at every

>design for the good and the bad, that's what I find

>interesting. It seems that this makes others uncomfortable

>which is unfortunate.

>

>Take care,

>Pete B.

>

>

>>Hi Fellas;

>>

>>Please do not make this an uncomfortable place to be.

>>

>>Everyone that writes on this website is a contributor and

>has

>>a right to be heard.

>>

>>I have read writings and commentaries from both of you over

>>the months I have been ill.

>>

>>You and everyone else has their individual points of view.

>>

>>I believe the sentiment here isn't where the speakers are

>>being made, but rather they are not being made by their

>>founding fathers and in their original US factories.

>>

>>Minh, we are having trouble accepting the loss of the

>founding

>>fathers, such as, but not limited to Henry Kloss.

>>

>>I am a Canadian but, Roy Allison, Henry Kloss and Edgar

>>Vilchur are like family to me.

>>

>>As a young adult I have grown up with these names at the tip

>>of my tongue even though I have never met them.

>>

>>On this website I have met none of you personally, but do

>>enjoy reading your thoughts and opinions very much.

>>

>>We have different budgets and tastes but we are all here to

>>learn or to help others learn.

>>

>>Yes, I may not understand, or even agree with either of you

>at

>>times, but I am still learning about hifi.

>>

>>We also must accept that manufacturers must be cost

>effective

>>to make a profit, and stay in business and so going off

>>continent to manufacture, seems to be the only choice at the

>>moment.

>>

>>Have a nice day.

>

Hi Pete and Minh;

It would appear that you both are leaving this site because of a difference of opinions.

You are both contributors of knowledge and experiences to us all.

If we took a survey of members, I am sure there would those who would agree to disagree with both of you and never say a word.

That is their choice and mine.

The very best we can all do is, present our ideas and see what debate or discusion follows suit.

We are talking of things, things that some were made over 50 years ago, and we are still having our periods of enjoyment with them.

Some may argue this point, or that point, but, we can't sit at a round table to discus this, so, we use the keyboard and cameras to.

We all are living in very stressful times today, financial concerns, health and matrimonial issues and work related stress and we all come here to talk to a pal, about what we like, during a leisure break at out computer.

We do not choose age, race, sex or high IQ's to be here, we are here just for a release of positive and hopefully constructive energy.

We all need you Pete and Minh, our hifi pals.

[Pete B]

Please don't worry Vern, I'll be around.

I come and go depending on how much spare time I have.

It's good to see a peace maker like you in these times of such excessive competition.

Take care,

Pete B.

[mluong303]

There is no replacement tweeter better than the original unit for matching up the tonal balance of the original design. No matter if the drivers are better brand name or more expensive. Try to win an auction on eBay for the tweeters you need at a reasonable cost. The AR TSW-110 to 710 speakers use the same 3/4¡± titanium fired tweeter with cross acoustic lens. The original version had dull copper tone and latter had dull aluminum finished dome. Try to use the same for both. The AR TSW-810 and 910 speakers use German made 1¡± titanium tweeters by MB Quart ( no longer available new!). The one use on the TSW-910 was the most expensive tweeter with special clear acoustic lens and double backed magnet for higher power handling, not for shielding purposes. OEM units based on the original spec. are available at AB Tech Services if you need new replacement AR drivers.

Minh Luong

[dynaco_dan]

Thank you, Minh.

As always, here to the rescue with some really important technical information.

[mluong303]

The AR TSW 12" woofer is almost identical to the Tonegen woofer except for the polypropylene( or polyethylene? ) cone and the flatter and wider dust cap that make it seems like it is a 3" voice coil woofer from the front! They will drop in on the AR-LST, AR-3a or AR-11 cabinets fine. But if you are not happy with the AR-11 ( Tonegen replacement ) woofers sound in your AR-LST. The AR TSW woofers will further disappoint you! Try to locate a pair of old AR-3a or AR-LST woofers since that is the only option to get the best result. The bass characteristic of this poly woofer is fast, snappy and crisp to mate with the 6.5" poly cone midrange and Titanium dome tweeter in the TSW series speakers. The built quality are excellent with consistence look and better quality control compare to the previously hand built units. I had used these woofers originally for my AR-3a Limited speakers project back in early '90. At that time I own a pair of AR TSW 610 and double stacked two pairs of TSW-610A to act as a poor man's Duntech Sovereign speakers! The TSW-610A is my favorite speakers in the series.

Minh Luong

[tysontom]

>The AR TSW 12" woofer is almost identical to the Tonegen

>woofer except for the polypropylene( or polyethylene? ) cone....

>

>Minh Luong

Minh,

I think you are correct in calling it "polypropylene," not "polyethylene" as I previously stated. Thanks for mentioning it. Polypropylene is a very durable, tough and flexible material that has been widely used for instrument cases and other applications that require tough service. As cone material, it seems to be stable and relatively light-weight, but in woofers it has a tendancy to "break up" at higher frequencies, so it is better used for low-frequency use. Special adhesives were developed to help bond the material to voice coils and so forth.

--Tom Tyson

[Guest postjob62]

Hi Minh,

I recently aquired a pair of very nice TSW-610's, and as I posted in another recent thread "3a and TSW-610 comparison" I think they sound very good. As I suggested, I think they are even a little 3a-like.

Could you tell me what the difference is between the TSW-610 and the TSW-610A model that you mention?

Thanks,

Ed