Simple yay or nay comments please re: The rebuilding of black bullets for 2ax

[Jim Pearce]

Thank you.

[RoyC]

23 hours ago, Jim Pearce said:

Thank you.

OK...I'll be the first to ask you about this strange post. You have no replies because I seriously doubt anyone (including the moderator) knows what you are talking about.

What is a "black bullet"? I Googled it and the only audio reference is to motorcycle speakers. If so...yikes, "nay".?

Roy

[Aadams]

The rebuilding of black bullets for 2ax. 

I have been thinking about this one all day and at first thought it was about something like the image on the left but on greater reflection I now think it refers to the image on the right, below.  Maybe the OP will answer the riddle.

Adams

 

 

[Jim Pearce]

Roy, omigosh; sorry!

Adams, you nailed it.

Sorry as well to the rest; didn't know I was being so cryptic, never meant to be. Have always in my mind thought of them that way, the others as 'red phenolics'.

At any rate, I dearly love them, have for various reasons, mainly ignorance and poor judgement destroyed 5, am of very limited means, have 6 boxes complete except for the 5 bullets and am in great pain.

So. Before I plunk down a substantial portion of my monthly income I want to be sure it's going to the best option.

On the other hand, I DO have a pair of your modded ones that I find intolerably screamy in the midrange. But the pots have been bypassed. A competent friend will put them back in line for $60. Repair of 2 tweeters from our friend here runs $150 or so I guess.

Two pair of the non modded tweeterless units have been restored.

SO... If cost is not an issue, what is the option where sonic accuracy is the primary goal? I'll then have another pair later set to factory if it's considered different from sonically accurate if so.

I apologize Roy if you consider this post stranger yet. 

 

 

[Aadams]

3 hours ago, Jim Pearce said:

On the other hand, I DO have a pair of your modded ones that I find intolerably screamy in the midrange. But the pots have been bypassed. A competent friend will put them back in line for $60. Repair of 2 tweeters from our friend here runs $150 or so I guess.

I would like to see a picture of that "screamy" tweeter.  I can't imagine how an AR tweeter could be "screamy" at 5khz, which is the bottom of their range.  Rebuilding is an option that has been available for about 2 years now and is preferred by some of us.  If cost is the prime driver the Hivi QR1 has a proven record when installed correctly.  If you are a DIY type you should download the restoration document. If not DIY you could send a private message to RoyC who is an authority on both options.

 

Adams

[Jim Pearce]

It's the mid-range that screams I think. I think that the mid-range screams on all of them. Even the unmodded pair that I have... into which I put the red domes into when I killed the black bullets by cranking a 20 watt Marantz.

I have heard that the black 3/4 in lose a great deal of their output over time so I have opened the attenuators all the way and greatly cut the mids anyway, almost turning them off.

I am now using a refurbished Sansui 8080 that I do something similar with reducing the mid-range and accenting the treble control but that's another story of course.

Having trouble inserting a photo from my files or camera but it is the Hi Vi tweeter with the textile dome. Raised letters say 'Hi Vi' just below the dome. No exposed wiring in front.

I will continue to try to send photos to you somehow I don't know if it is a QR 1.

My next move is to pull the woofer and shoot a photos of the crossover of the crossover.

[Aadams]

If the QR1 mod was done correctly it will not scream in the mid range.  You should be able to turn it down to a setting that pleases you.  Does the QR1 have the recommended inductor installed on the back of the unit? If not it will scream in the midrange.   If the attenuators are bypassed then even with a correct QR1 I can see how one might say the mid range is too bright especially if they were bypassed incorrectly.

The best solution for pots is lpads, as described in the restoration document, but if your pots are working at all then you can probably fix your tweeter problems now and think about lpads later.   You need to talk to Roy about QR1 vs rebuild.   Do not toss any of your broken tweeters. Broken tweeters can be repaired nowadays if the bodies are not deformed.

PS I can guarantee none of the your original AR tweeters are the source of a midrange problem.  In fact, none of them are working anywhere close to their original output specification.

Adams

 

[Jim Pearce]

My initial post about this issue was getting pointed in the "right" direction for first, sonic accuracy for the pair I'll be using and on the second pair which I'll be restoring to factory specs for storage as an investment of sorts.

I'm finding it so far impossible to send photos and copying and pasting text of the supposed work done to these speakers except by way of forwarding an email apparently.

If there is anyone that could see their way to trusting me with an email address, I would love it.

I have five or six of these tweeters on a shelf covered gently with a towel and a HUGE sign for my wife that says put NOTHING on top of this shelf or the items under the towel!

Ever since my true love cued up a disc with no stylus in the XSV 3000 cartridge on my AR XA one time, she dare not touch anything audio related except for the volume control when we are listening to something and clears even that with me, lol.

I'd probably just be better off switching drivers into different different states of crossovers and pots with the different results I get and pick the sound that simply sounds best to me while offering the ability to adjust for acoustics and room placement.

Sorry for the convoluted nature of my writings.

 

[Aadams]

17 minutes ago, Jim Pearce said:

I'd probably just be better off switching drivers into different different states of crossovers and pots with the different results I get and pick the sound that simply sounds best to me while offering the ability to adjust for acoustics and room placement.

If you are switching drivers it suggests you can solder and use a screw driver at least.  You are halfway there.  Also, you might solve a lot of your  problem with a ten band graphic equalizer.

Check your PMs

 

[Jim Pearce]

"Suggests" would be the operative term here.

I cannot solder... When changing out drivers I cut wires far from the drivers themselves, sometimes needing to patch in wire to lengthen the work and use wire nuts...and I'm only partially adept with a screwdriver. I have not yet damaged a surround with that tool, luckily.

[Jim Pearce]

Oh, and regarding the equalizer... I'm very reluctant to introduce complications into the signal path. These days.

[JKent]

Hi Jim

First, regarding posting photos and text. Your best bet is to resize the photos to about 100Kb. I use PhotoShop Elements. If you have that, resize the photo to about 6 to 8 inches on the long side, set the resolution to about 100 pixels/inch and save at quality level 8. It may take a bit of experimenting. Then drag the pic to the area below your reply, where the paper clip is.

For text, highlight the text, copy, and paste it into the body of your message as "plain text" or "unformatted text" or "match style".

As has been pointed out, Roy is the authority on your tweeters. He developed the Hi-Vi mod and recently started rebuilding originals. I have the Hi-Vis in my AR-3a's and I put Roy's rebuilds in another member's 3a's and both results were excellent. If you are looking for authenticity then the rebuilt originals are a better bet. Both Roy and member Chris1this1 do rebuilds but their techniques are different.

Before jumping into equalization I think you need to be sure everything is right in your speakers. I assume you like the 2ax and that's why you are restoring them. IMHO the 2ax is an excellent speaker, every bit as good as the fabled 3/3a except for the very bottom of the bass extension.

So. Have the capacitors been replaced? That should be #1. Then, as mentioned, replace the troublesome pots with modern L-pads. L=pads are wired differently than pots, so all the wiring has to be checked and re-checked. Then, if you use your Hi-Vi tweets be sure you have the correct inductor added to the back.

If you do everything right there will be no screaming, just beautiful music.

You are welcome to email me. Use my screen name at ptd dot net, but I'll be away for 2 weeks starting Saturday. Also maybe let us know where you are. If you're in my neighborhood I'd be happy to lend a hand and I think there are other members who would also be willing to give hands-on assistance.

JKent

[Jim Pearce]

First, tyvm for the trust, which is no small issue.

Second, my mentioned screaming was about the mid-range. My modded speakers are just horrible here.

I don't mind if tweeters scream... in fact I prefer it.

My left ear cannot hear much over about eight or ten thousand. I ascribe that something called psychoacoustics exists however, it can be seen on Wikipedia. But I digress.

I traded for the supposedly but now hugely doubtfully Roy C. modded pair with something that I considered of much less value and tested them only cursorily. Further listening found them to be unacceptable for day-to-day use.

Thank you for the photo editing recommendations. I'll try.

I did not know about the wiring differences between the pots and the L pads.

And I'm aware  that I'm remiss for not addressing the recapping as primary. I however consider the tweeter replacement / rebuild primary. Right now I have a pair with screaming mid ranges, a pair with no tweeters and a pair that had the black tweeters which now have a pair of red tweeters! All of them have been refurbished in one way or another. My first goal is to get the proper tweeters matched with the proper crossovers. THEN recaps.

I have the hivi with the screaming mids, the former black tweeter pair that now have the red tweeters...which sound...wrong, I know. then there is the pair that had the red gums which now have no tweeters at all. All three pairs have been rebuilt one way or another. Two pairs have been rebuilt by a physics professor here in Norman, Oklahoma...from whom incidentally I bought two pair of rebuilt OLAs from...and the ones with the non AR tweeters came from someplace in Northwest Oklahoma.

You have supported my decision on whom I'll ask to do my tweeters.

Thank you so much for everything.

[Jim Pearce]

Just saw part of your post that said if there's anyone around Oklahoma City they might be willing to provide hands on work.

You guys are amazing.

[RoyC]

8 hours ago, Jim Pearce said:

I apologize Roy if you consider this post stranger yet.

No problem, Jim. I'm just glad you were referring to an original AR dome tweeter.

I have little to add to the advice provided above. To summarize:

-You will not be able to clearly evaluate your tweeter situation until you reconnect your level controls, and make sure the crossover wiring is correct. Level control connections are required in all cases even if you do not use them.

-If properly set up, the HiVi tweeter is no more aggressive than the original AR tweeter.

Roy

[JKent]

Well, Jim, I don't want to become embroiled in any kind of flame war.That sort of thing is not acceptable here on CSP. But let me politely say you're going about this differently than I would.

The AR2ax (at least the 2 I've owned) have those wax block 6uF/4uF caps that are well over half a century old and in all probability have drifted or worse.

Bypassing the pots is in my opinion a mistake and leaves you with no way to turn down your screaming mids. Even so, I have never heard of 2ax mids screaming so something else is going on here. I suspect incorrect wiring, bad capacitors and possibly out-of-phase woofers.

Some of your comments make no sense to me. It may be limitations of written communication or maybe your inexperience with restoring speakers. First, you blame the rebuilt tweeters (i.e. high range drivers) for the "screamy" midrange. Huh? Second you fault Roy's rebuilds as the cause of the screaming mids while saying you prefer screaming tweeters. AND you say the Hi-Vis also cause the mids to scream. You go on to write that I "have supported my [your] decision on whom I'll ask to do my tweeters." My guess is, by process of elimination, you mean Chris. Chris does excellent work but i can GUARANTEE that you will hate Chris's rebuilds just as much as you hate Roy's and the Hi-Vis. The problem is NOT the tweeters.

You write that the pots have been bypassed but then say you "have opened the attenuators all the way and greatly cut the mids anyway, almost turning them off." Again--HUH?

You say you cannot solder but you seem to be doing an awful lot of mucking around in there. Have you read the AR-3a restoration guide? 90% of it is probably relevant to the 2ax.

Hope I don't put you off by sounding rude. We were all inexperienced at one time (and the physics prof may well be inexperienced too).

Good luck

Kent

 

 

[RoyC]

17 minutes ago, JKent said:

Well, Jim, I don't want to become embroiled in any kind of flame war.That sort of thing is not acceptable here on CSP. But let me politely say you're going about this differently than I would.

Hope I don't put you off by sounding rude. We were all inexperienced at one time (and the physics prof may well be inexperienced too).

Good luck

Kent

 

 

Hi Kent,

I just received a few PM's from Jim. It's all good. I've encouraged him to send me an email in an effort to straighten out his cabinet wiring before proceeding with the tweeter situation.

Roy

[Jim Pearce]

Oh no!

As I have feared may happen, I have clearly been misunderstood by virtually everyone.

I would never second-guess anyone here.

Never.

[Jim Pearce]

In a word, s***.

[RoyC]

8 minutes ago, Jim Pearce said:

Oh no!

As I have feared may happen, I have clearly been misunderstood by virtually everyone.

I would never second-guess anyone here.

Never.

Relax Jim...Kent and I just corresponded. I'm sure we will be able to assist you.

Roy

[Jim Pearce]

Note to self... Do your homework before approaching people that matter.

It occurred to me that I never tested the pots to see if they actually were offline on these modded speakers, they are. Turning causes no sound differences. Also found that at least one of the tweeters are inop with toilet paper tube. Figured I'd take things apart and photo things. Will send you the pics, Roy. All appears well except some areas where wood screws used in t nuts...!...referring to tweeters and mids but there seems to be good sealant and intact. Woofers seem tight with machine screws and t nuts are tight. Caps look new and have Dayton printed on them. Will send photo of values, etc. Tweeter backs have a slice of cardboard buffer...?...piece of styrofoam and what appear to be somewhat recently wound bright shiny copper coils. Curiously, to me, pots seem to have intact connections all throughout except for one tab. No screening behind woofer and insulation maybe old style original?

Now the kicker.

Put everything back together, removed jumper wire and connected leads to terminals one and t as opposed to one and two... and the tweeter works. Put jumper wire on and still working. Mid-range still screaming but turned down middle tone control on receiver. Adjusted treble to reasonable range to minimize sibilance. Voila. 

I have no idea what the hell happened before.

The only thing I can guess is that the jumper wire to the t terminal was not tight when I several weeks ago fully auditioned the speakers and I had the leads connected to terminals one and two.

When I first got these making the trade for the equipment I had the first thing I did of course was test the tweeters and they worked.

Then I quickly put the speakers away and made the trade.

So. I can easily deal with tightening the drivers to the cabinet and making sure we are airtight.

At this point my question is...do I need screening behind the woofers and will pantyhose or something like that work?

I'll send you the pictures Roy and we'll get started on the rebuilds for the 3/4 inch lovelies as our time allows.

Sheesh.

[RoyC]

41 minutes ago, Jim Pearce said:

At this point my question is...do I need screening behind the woofers and will pantyhose or something like that work?

I'll send you the pictures Roy and we'll get started on the rebuilds for the 3/4 inch lovelies as our time allows..

Hey Jim,

I see you sent an email. I'll take a look and get back to you.

No, the screening on the woofer is not at all critical to the sound. It just helps hold the fiberglass back. Low loft polyester batting, available from any fabric shop (as well as Walmart) is inexpensive and works well for this purpose.

Roy

[JKent]

42 minutes ago, Jim Pearce said:

Note to self... Do your homework before approaching people that matter.

Jim,

It's all good--no worries. My suggestion is, since Roy has volunteered to help, just follow his advice and don't get sidetracked by comments from other members (including me ?}

Kent

[ar_pro]

The Sansui 8080 is a nice vintage receiver that should perform well with most bookshelf AR systems; extreme adjustments of the tone controls shouldn't be required, and are probably not desirable. Out of curiosity, do you happen to own any speakers that sound good with the Sansui running at "flat' settings? 

 

 

 

[Jim Pearce]

"Good" means different things to different people.

The 8080, to me, sounds good regardless of what setting one uses.

All things being equal, which of course they never are, I run everything flat as a rule, regardless of the equipment maker. that's related to why I prefer what's known as the East Coast sound over what's sometimes called West Coast.

I have diminished sensitivity of high frequencies in my left ear so I tend to run things a little hotter on the left side (West Coast, lol?) and attenuate accordingly frequencies at the left speaker only. I do not use equalization because I believe it complicates the signal path. I guess things sound "good" to me that way. Or at least better than they would otherwise.

Having said all that does not mean I never change things, including my microphilosophies..or mood. What I described is what you might call my macrophilosophy. I just dig Vilchur and Kloss shit.

And I don't even have any that's been recapped. Yet.