AR9s? Much closer to live performance?

[Guest russwollman]

The reason I ask is that I went to hear the orchestra live yesterday (they did a stunning new piano concerto by a 23-y-o Ukranian composer/pianist, Sophia Pavelko)...and now, even though I like the double Advent system I listen with, it's not the same. Not even close. They sound good, they have impact and power, but the sound emerges from a source of rather limited dimensions, which has to be so for most loudspeakers, right?

So, I wonder if AR9 users can say that those speakers better recreate the effect of a live orchestra, what with their multiple drivers aimed here and there.

Frankly, I wonder if any loudspeaker can deliver the realism of the live performance (I do remember the AR live vs recorded demonstrations, but I wasn't there to hear them). Not that it is solely the fault of the speaker, since the recording process essentially "captures" the sound and funnels it through a variety of things.

Whatever technology may hold, I have decided to hear more live music. Just the sight of the players assembled on stage was powerful.

[soundminded]

The decision to hear more "live" music is IMO the best decision you can make. In fact, IMO, "live" music is the only real music, recordings are a facsimile just the way a photograph is not the real thing, but that's a whole different philosophical arguement.

The main difference between the sound of a live performance and a recording played through the best sound systems in the world is IMO the acoustics of the hall. No matter how accurate the equipment, the current technology can't come even remotely close to capturing and recreating that effect. I represents as much as 90% of what you hear live. The larger and more reverberant the hall, the greater the effect and percentage of what you hear. Audiophiles who don't believe it are just kidding themselves. I have been priveleged to hear many live concerts in a few great and many not so great halls. It was interesting to hear a college orchestra practice in their practice room one night, at a dress rehearsal in their empty very fine concert hall the next, and in a fully packed hall at their performance the following night. If you want to get an idea of how important the acoustics are, stand just outside a hall at an exit door with it open and listen through the door. Not only is the reverberation enormous, but the tonality is different from what you hear without great acoustics. That is because different frequencies decay at different rates, high frequencies invariably decay faster than mid and low tones. The net result is sound that is very clear but also very mellow and musical when acoustics are good. To audiophiles, this probably seems like a contradiction. The perception of sound in a large hall has a completely different psychoacoustic effect as well. IMO, at a given volume, the fact that the perception is one of a source several dozens of feet away filling a vast space for up to two or more seconds with each note makes the source subjectively much more powerful. By comparison, the sound of a symphony orchestra in a home setting no matter how loud is subjectively a relatively feeble source which is up close in a small room. Perhaps one day, technology will improve. There are other differences too which directly impact music. The fact that in a hall, the reverberation from one note arrives with the direct sound from successive notes creates harmonies and dissonances which are absent in recordings. One of the most effective techniques used in 19th century music is the "grand pause." In this effect, the orchestra builds up to a climactic crecendo and then stops for a brief moment. The audience hears the reverberation die out and this leads into the next note. It's a kind of buildup of tension which is very effective and has to be adjusted by each conductor to the acoustics of the particular hall. In a recording, absent the reverberation, not only is the effect non existant, but the pause is actually experienced as a discontuinity, the exact opposite of the live effect the composer was striving for.

As for the tonality of musical instruments reproduced through AR9, I was initially not particularly happy with them. Like all front firing speakers (except for bass below 200 hz in AR9) the speaker was not clear enough and its tonality was always wrong. Acoustic Research pioneered the notion that total radiated power was crucial for accurate sound reproduction. IMO, although this idea is correct, it doesn't go far enough. It fails to consider that in a real world environment, you inevitably hear reflections from the room itself in the general direction of the speaker and no matter what kind of tweeter you use, those reflections will not contain any energy from the highest octave. Just look at the polar radiating pattern as a function of frequency of any speaker. It is nearly omnidirectional at low and mid tones but becomes very directional at high frequencies. That is why this happens. Therefore what you hear is a direct wave which may have a flat frequency transfer function but many early reflections which are far from it lacking in treble. This is why IMO, many listeners go to great lengths to mitigate this problem even unknowlingly understanding why they do it. This includes bipolar speakers, long linear arrays of tweeters (you are always off axis from many of them) deadening the reflecting surfaces behind and to the sides of the speaker, pulling the speaker away from the wall, and other measures. I use a multidirectional array of tweeters on all of the systems I listen to seriously which requires a complete tonal rebalancing of the speakers using both driver level controls and equalization. I have found over the last 15 years that this improves the tonal accuracy, clarity, and my musical enjoyment I get from recordings to a great degree. My AR9s are now the best sounding speakers I have heard. However, I'm making excellent progress with my Bose 901 enhancement project as well. My goal is to get the 901s to have the same tonal balance I've gotten with AR9s. Impossible? Engineers know that there is often more than one path to the same or comparable results.

[Guest russwollman]

Thanks for the stirring insight, sound. It is quite a phenomenon, conducting and performing. On another point, isn't it something that a very tiny handful of humans throughout the ages were able to compose such eternal works. The art and process of composition fascinates me, and surely calls for a rare order of mental functioning.

[soundminded]

The greatest composers were a rare breed. You don't see anything like them today. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why classical music seems to be dying.

[Guest rickcee]

yea. I miss George. Harrison, that is. Rick

[ninohernes]

I see the Chicago Symphony Orchestra every weekend. It keeps my ears fresh. Whenever I make a recording, I always have the "real" sound in my head.

Yes, it is possible to recreate the sound of a symphony. Here at college, we have a listening room. The listening room consists of Martin Audio 4 way speakers with XTA active crossovers. Each channel has its own dual 18 inch subwoofers. There are 7 channels. System power is 35,000 (thirty-five thousand) watts per channel. When playing the old RCA 3 channel CSO recordings (SACD) with the front three channels, it sounds exactly like the concert hall. Of couse we have over a half a million dollars of amps, speakers, and crossovers.

It took a lot of tweaking with the XTA crossovers to get the edge off of these PA speakers. They are the finest PA speakers I have ever heard, and with the XTA crossovers, they are simply amazing.

[Guest Bret]

>The greatest composers were a rare breed. You don't see anything like them today.<

I made the same observation one day and was told that if anyone alive could write something like Beethoven's 9th that they wouldn't because it would be "writing like Beethoven" and not avant garde. If they did write it they probably couldn't get it played and if they got it played nobody would record it and if it were recorded nobody would buy it.

I'm guilty, too. If I had to interrupt my regularly scheduled list of the mundane to go to a live performance of some piece I'd never heard of by someone I've never heard of played by mediocre musicians, I'd likely stay home and wash clothes.

I acknowledge that I am part of the problem.

I can't tell you how upset I was a month or so ago. My son is likely to go to junior high and high school the same place I went. When I registered in 1971 I had a few elective options available to me, one of which was band. I hadn't played an instrument in years (due to losing teachers when we moved) and band was only worth 1/2 of a credit whereas every other option lead to a full credit.

Trying to make a long story somewhat shorter, I did join the band and took up a new instrument (drums) because I thought, stupidly, that there would be less practice involved with drums than, say, trumpet.

So a month or so ago we went to my old school's "open house" for prospective students at homecoming. We watched a half of high school football that I was only mildly interested in because some people I knew had sons on the field. Half-time:

First the Homecoming junk happened. I was surprised by how little of it there was, but we all got to hear who's parents made-up their girls to look like . . . nevermind.

Second, the visiting band played. There were maybe 25 players on the field. Since this is a private school I'm not familiar with I assumed that the school was likely very small and didn't have much of a music program. There were some of those back in my day.

Then it was the Home team's turn.

The drill team had grown from a dozen to three dozen or more and they performed to recorded music (AC/DC to march onto the field and really ragged, amateurish, and awful mixes of various tunes afterward). Then the band took to the field. The band consisted of maybe, maybe twenty kids and I think I'm estimating high. There were no "rifle girls" and the "flag girls" numbered all of four.

I know nothing stays the same and I shouldn't expect it to, but when I attended that school the band marched 120+ players (this is a small school, folks) and with the drill team and auxiliary we put about 150 kids on the field. I'm thinking, "This is a joke, where is the rest of the band?"

What I'm about to tell you IS the answer to my question: They played “25 or 6 to 4.” The other band played “Louie, Louie.” The Chicago tune was too dated to play before *I* graduated.

There is no Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Mason Williams, Chicago, or any other "inspiration." Nobody plays "Night on Bald Mountain" to these kids. They've never experienced "La Gazza Ladra" or "Der Rosen-cavalier" and if they did I'm not sure there is enough soul left after all the garbage on TV, the garbage on the radio, the garbage video games, and the garbage books they are exposed to for any of it to move them at all. And this media-sensation "created" junk has no heart and no talent and no reason to live, as far as I'm concerned.

[singing] "Bye-bye Miss American Pie. . ." and Austrian Pie, and German, Russian, French, English, Czech, Italian . . . again.

I know this school still HAS a music program and I know it lacks for nothing but participation. I have considered what I could do and frankly, without changing an entire culture, I can't think of a thing.

[Guest russwollman]

You said a lot, Bret. It's very difficult to see the world headed in a direction that you know is wrong.

Remember that the wheel is constantly turning. There's an awful lot going on all over, all kinds of searching and questioning.

All you can do is your part, whatever that may be (and I'm sure it's a good part, knowing you), and find inspiration wherever you can, bringing the best of the world to your attention.

Education is in real trouble today, and the evidence of that is the very state of the world, which demonstrates a real lack of knowledge.

ABC news did a wonderful story months ago on a symphony orchestra in Iraq, which kept going throughout the turmoil. And the piano concerto I heard yesterday, from a 23-y-o Ukranian pianist/composer now living in NC, brought tears to my eyes, for I knew the lady was a rare and gifted individual carrying on a wonderful tradition from a great culture.

With any luck from nature, we will live to see the great cultures of the world shine in fresh brightness. The world is as we are, all 6+billion of us. We create is every moment with every thought and action.

[Guest russwollman]

Some college, Joe. Someone there knows how to set up a good system...

[ninohernes]

I did a lot of work on that setup! But yes, our live sound professor is probably the best one in the industry. Jack Alexander knows a ton about this stuff, and he is an audiophile too!