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8" LMR for AR-9 and AR-90 - 200027 - Availability/Substitutes


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I recently bought a beautiful set of AR-9s (you may have seen the post from "Goose" last week about their availability - this post was moved to the "For Sale" section).

Goose (Michael) was the original owner of these (bought them as a Teledyne employee) and he mentioned to me that, about ten years ago, he'd had the woofers and lower midrange worked on (he thought just new surrounds).  All the drivers work properly but I was suspicious that the LMR had been changed given the different cone material from the proper LMR set in my AR-90s.  The new AR-9s sounded impressive but with a bit more "wooly" feeling in the lower range of vocals than I expected.

I measured the output of all drivers with the XO set to 0 by all three switches and took measurements of pink noise with a calibrated mic just 1" ahead of each driver just for reference.  The tweeter and UMR were both about 3-5 dB lower in output than the suspect LMRs when looking at an FFT display in each drivers covered range.  So ... I pulled the proper drivers from my AR-90s and installed them in the AR-9s (and while doing so found that whoever had worked on the AR-9s had failed to install gaskets for the LMRs).

The result:  Taking the same measurements as characterized in the preceding paragraph, all drivers are now within very close to the same output levels in their respective ranges and the speakers sound noticeably clearer, especially on vocals with content in the lower range, like Odetta, or even Bob Seger, or  Kate Wolf.

So ... I'm in the market for a pair of 8" LMR to restore my AR-90s to "stock" but am also interested in first-hand experience using other 8" AR drivers as substitutes, especially ones that have the original formed-paper cones rather than the plastic (polyethylene?) cones on the 1210045-08 (maybe 0B - hard to see) that my new-to-me AR-9s came with.

Thanks, John (who is still convinced he got a fair deal on some beautiful speakers he's wanted for a long time).

Correct_LMR.jpg

Wrong_LMR.jpg

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I can understand your opinion about the AR-9 LMR because when I refoamed mine in looking at it, it appeared to be somewhat flimsy and not similar to AR other 8" small drivers. I also wonder if a better(?) of more substantial driver might be substituted?

I can only suggest that you also check the inside back of the interior's circular enclosure used by this driver as one of mine was leaking due to drying mounting adhesive which is all I found holding it in place.

Keep us posted.

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1 hour ago, johnfalc said:

....in the market for a pair of 8" LMR to restore my AR-90s to "stock" but am also interested in first-hand experience using other 8" AR drivers as substitutes, especially ones that have the original formed-paper cones...

Hey, John. I have no idea if these 8-inch drivers might be a suitable substitute for the 027 driver, but I have this pair of ready-to-go orphans that I don't know what to do with. These are part number 200035, which is the 8-inch woofer (not LMR) used in the AR-93. Drawing and specs or performance curve for this driver are available in the Library - - DCR is spec'd as 8-ohm ±10%, and these measure at 8.4 and 8.5 ohms. 

Originally, these had the unusual stiff white domed dust cap, but when re-foaming, I mistakenly replaced the original caps with new black ones of similar diameter. These days, I typically try to preserve the original caps.  :wacko:

035 woofers 1.jpg

035 woofer 2.jpg

035 woofer 3.jpg

(Edit: I found this pic with original dust caps.)

200035.jpg

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As mentioned, the 8" poly drivers are not adequate replacements for the original. Several years ago, my son & I rebuilt a pair of 9's that had missing upper & lower mids, and we tried the 8" poly (see photo) with very poor results. The overall effect was a loss of neutrality within the vocal range - the speaker had lost the effortless quality that the 4-way AR systems possessed, especially at higher sound levels, where the 8" poly driver sounded muffled. We wound up waiting until we could source an original pair of drivers from eBay.

Frank's suggestion regarding checking the lower mid's enclosure is a good one, as dried glue and even loose enclosures have been previously reported.

The level control switches for the upper range drivers should also be checked, as they can become intermittent. If you can wiggle them around and hear a static-like sound during playback, they'll need to be cleaned. 

Your new speakers look like a beautiful pair of AR-9's, and they have a great provenance - many congratulations!

ar.jpg

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I looked into LMR substitutes, while I was researching building a center speaker, to match my AR90's.  According to my notes, the Tonegan 1210045-0 woofer should work.  Also, the 200037-0 woofers, from AR18S speakers, match the LMR impedance, so they should work too.  Plus, 1st gen AR94's used the same 200027 woofers.  But, that was the bottom driver in the 94.  Not the middle woofer.  I never could figure out that decision?

Oh yea:

LMR 8"

Fs 38 hz

Re 5.75 ohms

Qts .47

Qes .7

Qms 1.3

Le .42 mH

 

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5 hours ago, ra.ra said:

Hey, John. I have no idea if these 8-inch drivers might be a suitable substitute for the 027 driver, but I have this pair of ready-to-go orphans that I don't know what to do with. These are part number 200035, which is the 8-inch woofer (not LMR) used in the AR-93. Drawing and specs or performance curve for this driver are available in the Library - - DCR is spec'd as 8-ohm ±10%, and these measure at 8.4 and 8.5 ohms. 

Originally, these had the unusual stiff white domed dust cap, but when re-foaming, I mistakenly replaced the original caps with new black ones of similar diameter. These days, I typically try to preserve the original caps.  :wacko:

(Edit: I found this pic with original dust caps.)

200035.jpg

I always wondered about those white dust caps, and why they were used?  Strange, compared to the typical AR style?  I have to ask,  I wonder if they were heavy enough to alter resonance frequency, to extend the lower bass limit?  I guess it would have been an easy way to tune the speakers, if so?

Also, if still available, I'd be interested, if no one else shows a desire for them?  They are what I'm considering for a center speaker project, that I mentioned.  PM a price, if you don't mind?  Thanks!

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6 hours ago, ar_pro said:

...checking the lower mid's enclosure is a good one....

Really....is this a common occurrence? The OP has already noted that the LMR was lacking the sealing gasket. 

1 hour ago, Stimpy said:

...I'd be interested....

Sounds like you have an interesting project. I don't think these 035 drivers showed up in any other speaker models, and I can't begin to understand the particular engineering objectives behind this woofer. I'll be happy to reach out to you after the OP chimes in. 

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Ra.ra: Thanks, but the 8" you describe are of too high a DCR for this purpose; nice drivers though.

Stimpy: Thanks for the info you provided.   For the time being the AR-90s (infrequently used) host the 1210045-0.

Thankfully, I have the right drivers (stolen from my AR-90s) in the AR-9s and they're sounding great.  I haven't really had a chance to spend quality  time with them since I left the stereo/audio industry some 31 years ago.  I'm really enjoying them, regardless of the source: CD, LP, FM, music server, or streaming.

The cabinets, after a bit of lemon oil, look almost as though they just emerged for the first time from the shipping cartons, I really appreciate the care the one other owner and his wife took of these. The serial numbers differ only by 3. I believe they will outlive me, and become multi-generational in our family.

They do play louder than the AR-3as they will displace in my living room, and they like power, but I have enough of that with the Carver M1.5t.  I have three  M1.5t (I buy these when I see broken ones at bargain prices - fun to fix although awkwardly compact).

Back to listening!

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I have a pair of 8" woofers used in the LS and LSi models, including the AR9LS. These came out of an AR94. They have new polyether foam surrounds.

If you are interested send me a PM. Both have a DCR of about 4.6 or 4.8 (from memory). I can provide the exact ohm reading.

2-x-8inch-AR.jpg  

 

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58 minutes ago, ra.ra said:

Really....is this a common occurrence? The OP has already noted that the LMR was lacking the sealing gasket. 

Well, I've only read of the occurrence of loose sub-enclosures in these pages, so who can really say? Still, it's probably not unreasonable to take a peek while the drivers are out. 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Johnfalc, from my research I found this pair of 200035-0, 8041 that should be good for you: the price is good, they are in the USA.
Here below the link:

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Ar-8-Midrange-Made-In-Usa/183852683382?hash=item2ace795076:g:zfIAAOSwqeVdCa2Z

They are the same ones that ra.ra showed you,and the price is negotiable.
to you the decision, I would have bought them immediately!

Giorgio

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  • 6 months later...

FYI - I managed to find (on eBay) a good pair of 200027 LMR drivers which are correct for my AR-9s, so I've listed the 210045 8" drivers I took out of my AR-9s on eBay.  These (the 210045 drivers) are correct for the AR-9LS and AR-9LSi and were replacement parts (maybe originals also, IDK) for some other AR speakers with 8" drivers.

Anyway ... making this post to alert anyone who's looking for these - they're perfect except for a small tear in one of the surrounds.  DCR on the voice coils both measure exatly 5.28 ohms.  I refrain from posting the listing URL since I don't know that to be allowed on this board (which I value highly).

John

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5 hours ago, johnfalc said:

I refrain from posting the listing URL since I don't know that to be allowed on this board

Its recommend to just list the Item Number for eBay items.

Congrats on finding a pair of the 200027 LMRs.

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5 hours ago, johnfalc said:

FYI - I managed to find (on eBay) a good pair of 200027 LMR drivers which are correct for my AR-9s, so I've listed the 210045 8" drivers I took out of my AR-9s on eBay.  These (the 210045 drivers) are correct for the AR-9LS and AR-9LSi and were replacement parts (maybe originals also, IDK) for some other AR speakers with 8" drivers....

John

Did you find a nice improvement in sound, with the correct LMR driver?  Care to share details about what differences were heard?  Also, was the 210045 poly cone better in any area?  Just curious.

Thanks.

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15 hours ago, DavidR said:

Its recommend to just list the Item Number for eBay items.

Congrats on finding a pair of the 200027 LMRs.

Here's the eBay item number for those who might benefit from these 9LS / 9LSi 8" drivers:  Item ID: 283735409408

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15 hours ago, Stimpy said:

Did you find a nice improvement in sound, with the correct LMR driver?  Care to share details about what differences were heard?  Also, was the 210045 poly cone better in any area?  Just curious.

Thanks.

I really haven't taken the time to give the AR-90s a critical listen since I installed the correct drivers.  I definitely heard (and measured) a difference when I removed the 210045 poly cones from the AR-9s and replaced them with the 200027 drivers.  That difference had to do with balance/coloration in the lower mid-range ... most noticeable on female voices (I'm a big Kate Wolf fan).  I never played around with the level switches when comparing, and the 210045 were "hotter" in their band-pass as noted in my original post on this thread.

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I have a pair of the 200045 (1-210045OB) 8 inch woofer that I harvested from some AR94 speakers. They are the same type as used in the LS and LSi series with a treated paper cone. The voice coil DCR is 4.5 and 4.6 ohms. I noticed that the Tonegen numbers are different.

 

8_in_back.jpg

8_inch_AR_woofer.jpg

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22 hours ago, johnfalc said:

FYI - I managed to find (on eBay) a good pair of 200027 LMR drivers which are correct for my AR-9s,

Hey John, do your replacement 200027 lower midranges have four mounting holes or eight? The ones I refoamed that were in my late production 9's have four holes, but the same speaker in my AR 90's have eight. I have also seen lower midranges with seams in the cone like the ones pictured above. 

qtoJAEK.jpg

EXVudyN.jpg

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20 hours ago, lARrybody said:

Hey John, do your replacement 200027 lower midranges have four mounting holes or eight? The ones I refoamed that were in my late production 9's have four holes, but the same speaker in my AR 90's have eight. I have also seen lower midranges with seams in the cone like the ones pictured above. 

qtoJAEK.jpg

EXVudyN.jpg

Both of my sets of the 200027 (i.e., all 4) have eight mounting holes and seamless cones.  

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