Do AR speakers really sound that good? ** MORE NEW VIDEO**

[frankmarsi]

JKent really?

Crumpets was specific when he asked:

""but I am thinking about upgrading the AT95 cartridge. I only caught the AR bug fairly recently and find myself enjoying vinyl again. Any suggestions in the $100-300 range would be appreciated.""

This is the first time out of four attempts that I've tried for a few years to inspired folks to display and review their systems with video and it seems to be working thus far. I trust the more folks display, the more others will be inspired to do like wise.

Staying on point is important as this could lead to folks truly discussing their systems instead of the usual ad nauseam fare here about capacitors, wood sanding and the constant talk about being a tinkerer instead of a truly dedicated music listener. Because thus far to me, this site has turned into just that, a tinker-er's week-end on the work bench instead of the real and true mission of AR speakers which is to hear and enjoy music. Granted, these old birds (classic AR's) do need a certain level of work and repair but we've all covered those points countless times already. All one has to do is read the numerous older posts, it's all there to be read and learned from.

I've tried to inspire as "chris1-this1" has mentioned by showing his set-up. Now, if we can only get him to post a video so we may have a sample of what it sounds like. And in turn, hopefully, others will follow suit and display their set-ups.  Ultimately, this could lead to more musical enjoyment for all concerned here.

In terms of cartridges, I've already mentioned the AT-440ML series or the Denon DL-301II in the $200 to $300 category. And for folks who want to delve into more costly cartridges, I've already outlined what has brought my system to a level of true-audiophile quality in older posts of mine. The adherence to the  principal of 'good in equals good out' truly is the only way our systems will be of a higher listening quality. After all, isn't this what our collective coal truly is?

There are some here who utilize sub-par input devices making their set-ups sound no better or lesser than what I was using with my AR speakers over 45+ years ago. I feel it's time we all become more progressive and up the game and listening quality of our systems less this site becomes merely a time capsule and continues towards being non-valid in the world of high-fidelity which is something the designers of AR speakers didn't plan for us.

FM

 

[frankmarsi]

12 hours ago, Chris1this1 said:

Hey Frank, i guess you have inspired me. 

 

 

Well, Chris, thanks for this one, no pun intended.

You may recall that for AR speakers that I'm a big proponent of using huge amplification to power AR speakers so, of course my next question is: what are you using to power the lovely display of your LST's?

I would also suggest that you read if you haven't already one of the original test reports done by a well known reviewer stating that he thought LST's could benefit by using something even bigger than the original PL-700 amplifier he used in his testing.

[ra.ra]

On 6/12/2019 at 8:22 AM, crumpets said:

My system is probably as basic as it gets around these pages.

I can assure you it is not - - - currently, I have at least three set-ups in my home that are all using low wattage vintage receivers paired with one or two pairs of AR 8-inch two-way speakers.   

Your system is really fine - - - projecting back to the middle late 70's and that would be a pretty high end rig, in my book. Those components seem very well matched and the sound is excellent on that SRV song. In fact, that is the exact same tune that member GD70 has used to demo his restored AR-3's at one of our local meetings of gearheads.   

[JKent]

Thank you Frank for pointing out my oversight. Think that was before my morning coffee.  I'll address Crumpet's question if I can. But I'd also like to comment that IMHO posting videos is totally pointless. Video cameras (or worse, cellphones), computer sound cards and speakers couldn't possibly give any clue as to what a a truly high fidelity sound system sounds like.

Crumpets: I've been looking for cartridges in your range. On my short list are:

• Ortofon 2M Red
• Denon DL 103 moving coil
• Shure M97XE. Shure and AR just go together. My old V-15 III and V will go back into service.
• Sumiko Pearl
• Grado, but word is Grados can cause hum with AR TTS (at least with the XA)

My REALLY short list boils down to whatever Ortofon you can afford and Shure.

Frank's AT and Denon recommendations should be good and you can always google "best phono cartridge under $300" (but youll find a lot of Ortofon, Denon and Grado carts on those lists).

[ra.ra]

13 hours ago, Chris1this1 said:

...you ... inspired me. 

Great-looking speaker set-up, Chris, but I really want to know if that is the Three Stooges on your ancient television?

[Chris1this1]

 

Frank, 

i don’t have matching amps...yet, but currently the top set is powered by my Soundcraftsmen MA5002 which will push 375 watts into 4 ohms each side, and the bottom set is powered with a Crown Power Base 3 that pumps out a hefty 715 watts per channel. The Microstatics are just for show, since I knew you’d like the ascetic. They are in the midst of restoration currently, however, and have been retrofitted with an array of neodymium magnet .75” dome tweeters for ultimate dispersion and should be interesting once connected. 

 

Ra.ra...it was just the screensaver Verizon puts up, which could have been anything at that moment lol. 

[frankmarsi]

So, this post has been here for just over a month and less than a hand full have shown their set-ups and videos.

Some bold enough to show other's instead of their own.

What does this say about member's set-ups?

[Aadams]

On 6/19/2019 at 10:06 AM, frankmarsi said:

Staying on point is important as this could lead to folks truly discussing their systems instead of the usual ad nauseam fare here about capacitors, wood sanding and the constant talk about being a tinkerer instead of a truly dedicated music listener.

While I would not have expressed it the same way,  I do understand your frustration and would like to see more on the topic of music and sound with these old speakers but, unless someone can devise a method of evaluation that effectively places all of us in the same listening space,  I don't see how this will work. Sanding, soldering, and woodworking can be objectively measured with eyeballs directly on photographs but we have no way of putting our ears into direct contact with a recording of recording.  For this reason and to keep the peace the AR forum will always tend toward lowest common denominator topics.   JMO respectfully.

 

Adams

[frankmarsi]

O.K. a fair explanation but, I feel there's more to it like a lack of anything to show or hear.

One can make their own soup with all fresh ingredients or simply open a can and heat it in a microwave.

There are distinct differences.

So, it the forum continues as all talk and no show.

Boring, monotonous and with-out have anything to aspire to, especially for newcomers.

 

 

[Aadams]

1 hour ago, frankmarsi said:

There are distinct differences

Agree.  I have been pretty open with my stuff but not in this forum.

 

[genek]

6 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

So, this post has been here for just over a month and less than a hand full have shown their set-ups and videos.

Some bold enough to show other's instead of their own.

What does this say about member's set-ups?

In my case, what it says is that I think it would be a waste of my time posting a vid that will tell people how good my mic and their speakers are.

[frankmarsi]

As I've indicated, I used a $59.00 entry level Samsung cell phone and my computer uses two small in plastic enclosure 3 inch tweeter/mids and a 5 inch woofer on the floor below my desk. I paid $20.00 for it and it's a cheap Altec offering I bought in 2001.

Any music that's on the web usually sounds decent enough to get a good idea and sampling there of. For those so uninspired by music on the web (which is pretty much includes all music) to be relying on their computers built-in speakers isn't saying much. Depending on such weak excuses and tiny little garbage built-in speakers is ridiculous. Mostly every modern TV for sale offers crappy sound unless the consumer buys what's offered as out-board speakers for an additional $100.+

Pardon my bragging but, on my computer, my posted clips sound excellent. Whoever is complaining about not being in stereo or for another matter is a numbskull as it is what it is.

One of the first posters "newandold" to respond also indicated that my clip sounded excellent as did "crumpets"  and his clip also sounded good.  it's obviously the unwillingness to expose awful set-ups because of their apparent short comings due to its low quality of sound or the mish-mash of a poorly set-up system with lesser components piled up like a messy garage's storage shelve. And that's just explaining the sound aspect of it as they can still post stills of their systems but, don't.

I have surfed the web long enough to know that one can distinguish good from lousy sound unless one relies on their small crappy built-in computer speakers, especially on lap-tops. Even my $1400. Mac had one crappy tiny speaker so,I simply connected my old CPU speakers that I have for 20 years now.   Isn't it the norm that when one buys a new TV they are usually forced to buy outboard speakers too, or else you'll be starving your ears.

As a electronics/speaker/hi-fi person the entirety of my teen and adult life I naturally found it necessary to equip myself with a better quality of sound emanating from my computer, damn I spend enough time and money on the silly screen machine, there's just no other way.

If you ask me, once again it's the usual hiding behind the cloak and shield of the internet as the prime defense and excuse. Through such a disguise, newcomers talk as if they're experts, half-baked opinions fly with glorious colors and the numbskull level meter is always pegging in the red area. 

But, to be really honest, my system sounds great because I've invested time, research, knowledge, dedication and key money and made all of the correct selections of equipment to make it sound excellent and it even comes through as such through a $59. cheap-sh_t  plastic cell phone and $20., 20 year old plastic computer speakers. So, I know there really aren't any valid reasons to hold back unless a person so chooses to. That, in of itself only contributes to a lesser degree of communication. If I were an outsider, I could imagine that all AR-4's sound just like AR-9s. 

So, there's no excuse unless a person simply doesn't have the need or desire to expose their 'stuff' as it where and that is fine also. I just thought it would fun to see, listen and learn but, I'm done with it now as I've tried four times over the course of a couple of years and still I've have been met with the same stone wall.

I won't go back to sanding, deoxidizing of potentiometers or other utilitarian endeavors no, I'll simply go back to listening to my system as it is complete and ready to envelope me in gorgeous sound quality. In closing; if one had even the simple meager computer speakers that I use, they'd be able to hear how good my video/system does sounds and other's might.

 

[genek]

I am quite certain that if someone were to show up at my home packing broadcast-quality microphones and recording equipment, my music system would fall far short of many of those who have devoted far more time, effort and money toward theirs. Thus, I have no need to "hide" anything. I'm simply pointing out that a recording made using a cell phone mic that has had some 80% of its digital content deleted due to compression and then been even further compressed by a hosting site's server, played over the tiny speakers in a laptop (which would actually be more sound than I get out of the BT earbuds I use most of the time, but YMMV) will tell you nothing about the quality of anything. And comparing that recording to other recordings made on completely different equipment will tell you nothing about the relative quality of any of the original sound sources.  And I would venture that the lack of response to calls for vids reflects that the majority of people here find the idea as goofy as I do.

If anyone wants to know what my sound system really sounds like, hop a plane to Portland, OR and have a listen. I'll even feed you and put you up for your stay.

[frankmarsi]

If I may quote "newandold" earlier in this thread,   as he said:   ""It’s amazing ? that just by hearing the jazz on your video I can pick up the clean, crystal clear sound you’re getting."".  

I'll ask. didn't anyone else hear the same, if not then why?  I did, and very easily so.

I wasn't implying that we all hear it as 100% as it actually is but, a reasonable facsimile can and does come through a decent set of computer speakers, there's no denying that because others have heard it, I hear it loud and very clearly, in fact it impressed me. If on the other hand if one's computer speakers are tiny, and tinny sounding of course not and not even a hint will come through.

I often surf high-end stereo sites of mega-buck systems to get a sampling of how the high-end has grown and even then I only get the gist of it's true quality because the net does have its limitations but, a certain level does come through, enough to tell me those guys are right up on a higher level of quality. So, on the 'to-do-list' maybe a purchase of decent size computers will be as beneficial as I'm saying they will be. Gene, are you relying on tiny, tinny built in speakers? Are most others?     (LOL) Perish the thought!

I'm actually laughing now because it dawned on me all at once that I'm a fully dedicated analog listener through and through and here I am defending digital sound through a computer and you haven't yet indicated what you're using with a computer or sound system.

Certainly there's no need to, though the interest and curiosity of other's may be satisfied.

[Aadams]

2 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

As I've indicated, I used a $59.00 entry level Samsung cell phone and my computer uses two small in plastic enclosure 3 inch tweeter/mids and a 5 inch woofer on the floor below my desk.

This is not criticism of your effort. 

I did not listen to your video on computer speakers.  I did listen on headphones days ago but today I transmitted it lossless, first to my AR3as, and then to my AR9s.  It sounded better on headphones because the volume was lower, and bass harmonics are prominent.  When played on full range speakers it is obvious a lot room reflection was getting into the phone mic as there is a reverb quality in the male voice. Also, as expected, it is mono, which is OK, but it is somehow heavily biased to the right channel which I would attribute to your listening position in relation to the speakers and the orientation of the phone mic.

I returned to the headphones and turned up the volume to verify the reverb sound.  The reverb is not as prominent in headphones.  My guess is because there are no reflections of reflections entering my ears, but the reverb effect is present at higher volumes on headphones.

I would estimate if you centered the phone between the speakers and blocked the echoes from behind with a pillow, for instance, the recording quality would be better.  The bass will still be limited below 100 hz because the voice mic circuit is being used.   

It seems such a paradox that you have labored to create a fine analog system but are relying on analog to digital to analog conversion to show it.   

It is obvious your system can play with ease and authority but the nuance one would expect from such a system is lost in these examples. 

If you want to try it again, I would be happy to do the same type of audition to check the quality of transfer.

Adams

[genek]

I actually am using decidedly lo fi bits on my computers (earbuds; the desktop workstation doesn't have any speakers at all, and the laptop's are almost always muted) because they are my working tools and not part of my entertainment system. They work fine for doing edits and sync'ing subtitles, but when the time comes for any real listening, it's time to use the real audio system.

[frankmarsi]

The so-called 'reverb' you speak of is in the recording. The cell phone's pick-up/mic is furthest from the speakers as I sit approximately 15 from the front wall/speaker location.

Quote: ""It seems such a paradox that you have labored to create a fine analog system but are relying on analog to digital to analog conversion to show it. ""

Agreed and so true but, these are the only avenues we have here, and I'm not relying on it, I'm already convinced of the high quality playback that I enjoy. Also, I bet if I had you here even for one listening session, you'd become an d analog person too.

Quote:    "" It is obvious your system can play with ease and authority but the nuance one would expect from such a system is lost in these examples."" 

Yeah, well, agreeing once more but, again, such is the apparatus (the net) afforded to us all in this given situation. Maybe we should all take Gene up on his offer and show up at his house and see. Oregon is simply lovely this time of year. I'll throw in $40. bucks for a set of CPU speakers too.

[genek]

We only have one guest room, so if you "all" show up, you should plan on getting very chummy with each other at night.

[Aadams]

20 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

The so-called 'reverb' you speak of is in the recording. 

If what I heard is in the the recording it is a crap vinyl recording.  As I recall your speakers are on your right side as you face the electronics.  The mic is oriented toward the electronics with the sound source on the right and room reflection on the left.  That is the way it sounds and is much louder on the right channel because maybe your phone has multiple mics. 

(the net) is not the limitation in this case.

Adams

[frankmarsi]

On 6/23/2019 at 7:34 PM, genek said:

We only have one guest room, so if you "all" show up, you should plan on getting very chummy with each other at night.

To GeneK: Now, you're scaring me!  

Nor will I leave my surroundings and great sounding system to go hear another's unless I knew it could challenged mine.

Besides, there's nothing as comfortable as my own commode. It's ana-log ya know.

 So ultimately, once again, I'm rewarded with no one posting photos or descriptions or much less videos.

 

P.S. yes another quote:    ""If what I heard is in the the recording it is a crap vinyl recording."    I will forgive for you know not what you speak of.

To the intruder:  I feel no need to explain or defend but, if you're looking for information, here ya go.

 I've been on this forum since 2004, that's over 15 years now and I've been an AR speaker loyalist since I first heard AR-4s in 1965 when I was 15 yrs. old. I have owned and perfected my systems since I first purchased new AR-3a's in 1971-2, that's almost half a century ago. And you did what, for how long?

I've said and written all I could, read all that I wanted to and still I am unchallenged by another's vintage system. Unless there's someone hiding in the deep forest of grill cloth trees or wallowing in the static pool of ferro-fluid tweeter coil coolant or perhaps a desperado hiding under a large AR speaker that's not properly mounted on a 12 to 21 inch stand. I will sit in my living room and relish my efforts and personal dedication to the finest vintage system that I've ever heard. Mine!

 

And for your edification I'll repeat; oh sound technician in the highest (sarcasm), you couldn't refrain from the nastiness, and argument provocation, huh? It's is a $59.00 pay as you go J3 samsung phone, one recess mounted pin head microphone. So, there is no way you or anyone else could possibly comment on the microphone's directionality.  Enough said here, really!

I've been a dedicated vinyl person all of my life, I typically use $2,000. to $4,000. cartridges mounted on $1,000.and $2,000+ tonearms. My system is set-up and 'tuned' to perfection.  I have no need to listen to anyone or anything else except the next recording that I'm expecting to arrive in the mail.

I have shown, and described in detail and now even have allowed others to hear my system, providing they have decent cpu speakers, whereas you haven't or at best vaguely done so.

This thread has gone nowhere and through no fault of my own. I've been the only person on it who has shown a video of an ultimate high-powered AR-LST system and I really don't find it amusing or necessary to be challenged as there is no challenge here for me, I'm beyond that at this stage of sound system building. Except for a couple of other members who were gracious enough to share their system, you haven't and for what I believe to be obvious reasons.

[Giorgio AR]

Frank, here you can hear Acoustic Research AR4xa (in sound conditions as per the Acoustic Research specifications of the time) coupled to a McIntosh Mac1700 receiver and a small portable Scott reader; next to it, the turntable Lenco L70 1962 year! is barely visible, not in use for the movie.
It's a vintage pairing, I would say classic: no pretense of a top system, but the Mac1700 is very good (it has a Tuner section even higher than the McIntosh Mr77 tuner which I also own and can therefore compare).
As this small system ages, it is contemporary to your double ARLST GREAT sistem!
The Mac1700 receiver with AR4xa would look good in a small studio, with the speakers and turntable in a special library.
I am attaching two photos of my Lenco L70 , performed long ago, note the Audio Products logo with which he was relabeled at the time by the combo manufacturer with the Lenco turntable on top, the second photo shows the turntable, along with the tube amplifier in the original Audio 100 cabinet!, I hope you appreciate a simple and robust Swiss turntable.

Giorgio

[Giorgio AR]

Frank, I forgot: my Lenco cartridge is a common, cheap Excel ES-70s that discreetly plays vinyl.

[genek]

This topic has evolved into a system show-and-tell. Moving to "Members Pictures."

[frankmarsi]

40 minutes ago, Giorgio AR said:

Frank, I forgot: my Lenco cartridge is a common, cheap Excel ES-70s that discreetly plays vinyl.

 

Giorgio, there is a whole web-site devoted to Lenco tables, google it, it's huge.

 

I feel it is very unfair and insulting that my thread has been moved and relegated to this area of "the Classic Speaker Pages".

I have also been the victim of a couple of antagonistic, disruptive and anger-baiting vitriolic individuals who seem to always go after my posts whenever my stereo-system is mentioned.

[Aadams]

56 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

I have also been the victim of a couple of antagonistic, disruptive and anger-baiting vitriolic individuals who seem to always go after my posts whenever my stereo-system is mentioned.

I can see the smile on your face as you were writing this.  However, if you sincerely believe I am one of those individuals to whom you refer above , you have misunderstood my contributions to your thread and I mistake your motives creating it.