AR3a grills

[der]

I've done a variety of maintenance on my AR3a over the past few years which has included replacing the grill frames and grill cloth. I did not want to re glue the frames back on so I decide to try self adhesive Velcro.  This has not been effective. I'm looking for an alternate method that will also allow me to easily remove the grills if need be.  I've been thinking of trying Blu-tack.  Will that work?  Does anyone have any other suggestions of comments? 

Thank you,

der

[genek]

Velcro and a staple gun. That's what the later classic era models used.

[JKent]

der,

Could you tell me what the issue is with Velcro? I'm restoring a pair of early 3a's and the owner asked for Velcro. Restoring the AR-3a does suggest 6 small Velcro tabs but also says "contact cement alone is not the most permanent method. A 1/4" staple is needed . . ." If your self-adhesive Velcro is pulling off, maybe just add staples.

-Kent

Thanks,

Kent

oops. I see Gene already answered as I was typing.

[der]

I did not use staples and the Velcro I used did not seem to grip too well. The Velcro itself had an adhesive backing and it peeled off as well. Sounds like I need to find better Velcro and add staples. 

der

[frankmarsi]

5-14-019

This is a long term issue, so this proves to be almost a major problem for us all. Ever since the last time I sent back my AR-3a’s to AR in 1977 for a blown woofer and the usual blown tweeter, success has been fleeting.

I called AR and they said for me to send them and I did. They were returned with their new method of grill attaching with the ‘velcro’ as you mention. When some of the staples had worked loose when I examined the repairs. I tried to fix it but, with no luck.

AR had used a very powerful and therefore probably air-powered staple gun because no matter how hard I tried to replace the loose staples my hand-pressured gun wasn’t up to the task. As Kent mentioned, they should be very short staples.

The difficulty is that ‘masonite’ is extremely dense material and no matter how hard one tries by hand, failure is usually the result.

So, I tried small cardboard shims and the result after and during a listening session is the grills always worked loose and toppled out.

The problem is due to the folding of the grill fabric against the back of the masonite as that makes for a thickness and pushes the grill away from the baffle wood framing of the cabinet and is especially difficult to deal with as the corners have the most amount of folded fabric. I’m almost certain that the ‘blue-tack’ will not work as its degree of adhesion is too low for this application.

Double-sided tape, though it is the ‘on-the-cheap’ method but, it must be thick tape while considering the fact that the grills would protrude outward too far.

Short deeply shot staples are the only way and even then there’s no certainty that the staples will take hold in the masonite.  A possible suggestion is to speak with someone like ‘vintage-AR’ as he’s has done a number of grill replacements but, why would a working-business give away their trade secrets?

So, perhaps the rental of a good and strong and therefore air-pressured gun would be the way to go. Though I did try buying and using a heavier-duty gun, it still wasn't enough by hand and ended up returning it.

P.S. the only other method I can think of could be thin magnetic tape glued to both sides of the grill and baffle framing.

FM

[JKent]

51 minutes ago, der said:

The Velcro itself had an adhesive backing and it peeled off as well. Sounds like I need to find better Velcro and add staples. 

The resto guide mentions gel contact cement ("Goop"). I think the adhesive on your Velcro just isn't strong enough. It also specifies a power stapler. They specifically mention Sears "chisel point" staples but I don't believe they are available. Personally, I use Arrow Monel (stainless steel) for grilles because they're, well, stainless.

Kent

[der]

Frankmarsi's point on trying to staple into Masonite is well taken. I had an issue attaching new grill cloth to my AR4x frames when a put new grill cloth on them. I ended up using a tack hammer to finish off the staples on the frames.

The new AR4x grill assembly friction fit the speakers and I've never had a problem with them falling out. Not so with the AR3a.  Likely because they're larger and seem to have an issue with "bowing" a bit in the middle.

I could use the same "tack hammer" approach to staple and finish off bits of stronger Velcro to the 3a frames but I'm not sure I want to take a hammer to the staples I'd put into the speakers themselves. There's not much room between the fixing points and the front frame of the speaker.

One poorly done whack and you'd have a dent in the frames. 

[Aadams]

Der

If you attach a couple of layers of small linen pieces (tiny) at each corner and mid point of the long edges it will cause a friction fit.  You can experiment with strips before you make it more permanent.  I accidentally discovered this.  It doesn't take much of a bulge to work.  Just a thought.

Adams

[der]

30 minutes ago, Aadams said:

Der

If you attach a couple of layers of small linen pieces (tiny) at each corner and mid point of the long edges it will cause a friction fit.  You can experiment with strips before you make it more permanent.  I accidentally discovered this.  It doesn't take much of a bulge to work.  Just a thought.

Adams

Yes, like I mentioned about my 4x grills. I happen to have some leftover linen that I used for my 4x grills too. Think I'll give it a go. I work on golf clubs for friends, family, and myself and have double sided grip tape that I think would be ideal for attaching the linen strips. Thanks Aadams - I'll give it a go and report back. 

der

[genek]

Electric staple guns start at around $30 at Home Depot. You could also take it to an art/framing shop and have them stretch and staple it like a canvas.

[frankmarsi]

That's a wonderful idea, who would've thunk? Too late for me though as a few years ago, I spent some money with Larry at 'vintage-AR' and bought three sets for my 3a's and two sets for my LST's complete with badges. Der should ask how Larry handles the attachment issue as mine came with none. Larry did say to use velcro like the originals.

[ar_pro]

I recently attached a pair of Larry's AR-3a grilles using an Arrow T50 manual stapler with 1/4" staples driven through six pieces of Velcro on each panel, and at the corresponding locations on each frame.

The adhesive on even industrial strength Velcro just seems to come loose on its own.

[RoyC]

Larry/Vintage AR used to make replacement frames out of masonite, which is very hard to staple. He went through quite a few electric staple guns when he was using that stuff. Furthermore, the tips of the 1/4" staples would sometimes stick out on the other side. Last year I persuaded him to switch over to MDF which is a bit thicker, and much easier to staple. No glue is necessary, but a power stapler is still needed. I recommend painting the surface on the cloth side of the frame black (like the original). I purchase MDF at Home Depot.

Rolls of 3/4" double-sided velcro can be purchased at some craft stores, Walmart, and Home Depot, with one side being the "hook" and the other the "loop". I cut strips to size, and attach it with 1/4" staples and a dab of Goop glue. Goop glue is actually strong enough to do the job without staples if it is not applied over another adhesive (and as mentioned above, the self-stick velcro is useless). This is the velcro I've been using:  https://www.walmart.com/ip/VELCRO-R-Brand-ONE-WRAP-R-Roll-3-4-X12-Black/19535849

Roy

[der]

Many good responses. Thanks. I'm going to experiment with a friction fix since I have matching grill cloth material left over. 

der

[ra.ra]

32 minutes ago, der said:

...experiment with a friction fix....

Velcro is indeed a multi-use miracle invention, and it works very well for holding grilles in place, yet I think only one pair of my modest collection of AR's still uses (original) Velcro strips for this purpose. First used as a temporary 'fix' but now a more long-lasting solution, I have resorted to making various type of thin, small shims to wedge in the gap between the grille frame and the cabinet perimeter to hold the grille firmly in place. When they are dark in color and properly sized and wedged into place, they are virtually invisible. These shims are cut from material scrap, sometimes thin cardboard and sometimes craft felt - - I think I even used flexible roll cork at least once.     

[der]

Worked on the grills with double stick tape and grill fabric to achieve a friction fit.  I am pleased with the results. 

der

[Chris Zizzo]

Velcro hasn’t the holding power for the speaker grills and the adhesive on velcro is not strong enough either.

To bring your A game switch to Dual-Lock. It’s a 3-M product that is similar to Velcro. You may have seen it already. Your toll pass (E-Z Pass?) is attached to your windshield using it, under bright sunlight, in all temperatures, with extreme vibrations for years at a time.  I think it might prove to be an answer.

 

 

 

 

[frankmarsi]

Chris Zizzo may have the winning ticket?

https://www.amazon.com/Reclosable-Fastener-SJ3560-Household-Scissors/dp/B083M9Q1N3/ref=asc_df_B083M9Q1N3/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=416852451827&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13370426752815427082&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003676&hvtargid=pla-872832071678&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=99283606972&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=416852451827&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13370426752815427082&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003676&hvtargid=pla-872832071678

 These strips hopefully will be able to be cut down in size to apply a minimum of contact points facilitating ease of removal and install of grills. Beyond the fact of whether or not they'd work, the fear may be when taking them off with the delicate frames on the AR-3's breaking or even the masonite on my AR-3a's as masonite can be brittle.  Looking at the different views of it, it might be too thick?   If it is, it may push out the grills too far to look good.

Uh-oh, hey Chris, let me see that ticket again.

FM

[Chris Zizzo]

[Chris Zizzo]

I just found these at Staples. They might be too thick as you pointed out, Frank, though Velcro is thick as well. They may also be too strong for the grill backing.

I have 4 speakers and two really dilapidated grilles.  I plan to use them as templates and cut new ones out of a stronger sheet material such as sintra.  Then I’ll need fabric. It’s a process. ?