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338(h)(10)

AR15: mystery woofer - woofer replacement - crossover

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I just inherited a mint pair of AR15 with a pair of 8" woofers marked 135372 (sticker in the back) or 111791 (engraved in the back), which were made in 1991 (per the sticker) and supposedly for the old Bose 301. As is, the sound of the AR15 is already superb. 

Interestingly, the "Bose" woofers were put in place by Alpha Tech in St. Louis as proper replacement at the time (Alpha Tech's sticker is still in the back). The woofers look like made by Tonegen. So I also wonder if Alpha Tech thought the Bose woofers were suitable replacement for 200001.

Alternatively, are there modern woofers that are good or better replacement for the 8" woofers for AR15? I am in particular interested in the offerings from Dayton sold at Parts-Express.

Finally, AR15 uses a rather complex crossover network. Would the simpler crossover for AR18 work better? I am thinking noting for the woofer (once a proper replacement is found) and just a cap (5-10uf?) for the tweeter. 

 

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4 minutes ago, nefertem said:

Ah, the venerable former Vifa woofers. What's your impression of the Scanspeak vs. the original? 

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I made a mistake in my first post it really brings the sound stage more forward I really have frankenspeakers with AR 93 cabinets 

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After refreshing myself with your speakers . I remember wanting those when I was just starting out in AR Land. If you were to go with the scanspeak you would be very happy the parts express has good drivers too but they are almost as much as the scanspeak treated woofers I found over the listening experience with my system that the more modern woofers are faster in response and the sound stage is more detailed especially with female vocals and more forward I previously replaced the tweeters too

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10 hours ago, nefertem said:

After refreshing myself with your speakers . I remember wanting those when I was just starting out in AR Land. If you were to go with the scanspeak you would be very happy the parts express has good drivers too but they are almost as much as the scanspeak treated woofers I found over the listening experience with my system that the more modern woofers are faster in response and the sound stage is more detailed especially with female vocals and more forward I previously replaced the tweeters too

I noticed that the Scanspeak woofer is 4 ohm, whereas the original should be 8. Is that right? Did you change the crossover to accommodate the Scanspeak? Thanks again. 

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If you can’t find 200001 woofers the 200037 woofers would be my next choice. They can be found on the auction site and may need to be re-foamed. My opinion, keep your AR speakers AR. 

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10 minutes ago, lARrybody said:

If you can’t find 200001 woofers the 200037 woofers would be my next choice. They can be found on the auction site and may need to be re-foamed. My opinion, keep your AR speakers AR. 

That would be ideal, but my only concern is that I would not know if the woofers had been abused -- i can take care of re-foaming, but things like rubbing/burned voice coil and weakened cone are beyond my ability. I don't plan to re-sell my AR15, but just wanted to extract the most out of the cabinets and original tweeters.

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I've been wondering lately if this EPI/Genesis woofer replacement would work well

as a replacement for the AR 8" woofer:

http://www.humanspeakers.com/e/parts/001.htm

I also wonder how close they are to the original woofers from EPI.

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3 hours ago, 338(h)(10) said:

I noticed that the Scanspeak woofer is 4 ohm, whereas the original should be 8. Is that right? Did you change the crossover to accommodate the Scanspeak? Thanks again. 

Yes I upgraded the crossover also the ohm load just changes the impedance as for my two bass woofers they are in parallel 

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1 hour ago, 338(h)(10) said:

That would be ideal, but my only concern is that I would not know if the woofers had been abused -- i can take care of re-foaming, but things like rubbing/burned voice coil and weakened cone are beyond my ability. I don't plan to re-sell my AR15, but just wanted to extract the most out of the cabinets and original tweeters.

.

 

1 hour ago, lARrybody said:

If you can’t find 200001 woofers the 200037 woofers would be my next choice. They can be found on the auction site and may need to be re-foamed. My opinion, keep your AR speakers AR. 

I would be concerned if you are paying more for used woofers than buying new ones for the same price or less

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First of all, I would not recommend modifying the AR-15 crossover.  I have both the AR-15 and AR-28b, which are both 2-way speakers with 8" woofers.  The 28b has a very simple, one capacitor, crossover, while the AR-15's is quite complex.  I have compared the two side-by-side and the 28b's sound does not come close to the sound of the 15's.  I know part of the difference is the dome tweeter in the 15's, but I believe the crossover has an even greater impact.  

As far as woofer options, the 200037 is a good alternate to the 200001.   The 200050 is also an option.

You asked for a spec on the AR-15's woofer.  Attached are specs that I pulled from the archive drawings.  One is a little hard to read, but it should help.

8-inch_Woofer_Spec-AR-15.TIF

8-inch Woofer Spec-100037.TIF

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37 minutes ago, AR55 said:

First of all, I would not recommend modifying the AR-15 crossover.  I have both the AR-15 and AR-28b, which are both 2-way speakers with 8" woofers.  The 28b has a very simple, one capacitor, crossover, while the AR-15's is quite complex.  I have compared the two side-by-side and the 28b's sound does not come close to the sound of the 15's.  I know part of the difference is the dome tweeter in the 15's, but I believe the crossover has an even greater impact.  

As far as woofer options, the 200037 is a good alternate to the 200001.   The 200050 is also an option.

You asked for a spec on the AR-15's woofer.  Attached are specs that I pulled from the archive drawings.  One is a little hard to read, but it should help.

8-inch_Woofer_Spec-AR-15.TIF

8-inch Woofer Spec-100037.TIF

Thanks. This is super helpful.

It appears that this may be a good fit, given the Fs, sensitivity, and FR. But its outer diameter is a bit too large.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rs225-8-8-reference-woofer--295-356

 

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5 hours ago, AR55 said:

I know part of the difference is the dome tweeter in the 15's, but I believe the crossover has an even greater impact.  

This is a great post by AR55, and I would fully agree. I'd love to find some AR-15's for the exact reasons mentioned, and it should not be too difficult or costly to find authentic AR replacement woofers.

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The Speaker Exchange option looks like its a replacement for the 8" midrange in the 4 ohm, AR-9Lsi & 98Lsi, and probably would not be a good option for the 15.

The Simply Speakers option may be OK.  The specs are similar to those of 200001, but it has a poly-cone and probably has a stiffer suspension.  I would still recommend trying to see if you can find authentic AR woofers.  

The same 200001 woofer that was used in the AR-15, was also used in the AR-7, 16, 17, 18 and 94 (not 94s).

The 200037/210037 was used in the AR-18b, 18s, 28s, AV-18.  I've seen these show up often on eBay.

The 200050/210050 was used in the AR-28b, 25bxi, 38b & 38bxi.

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1 hour ago, AR55 said:

The same 200001 woofer that was used in the AR-15, was also used in the AR-7, 16, 17, 18 and 94 (not 94s)

Also was used in the AR25.

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20 hours ago, 338(h)(10) said:

Finally, AR15 uses a rather complex crossover network. Would the simpler crossover for AR18 work better? I am thinking noting for the woofer (once a proper replacement is found) and just a cap (5-10uf?) for the tweeter. 

 

I understand where you are coming from 338 (h) (10). The AR25 uses the same size cabinet with the same woofer with a single 6uf tweeter cap. Woofer just rolls off naturally to the 1 1/4 in. cone tweeter. Good sounding speaker. The AR 15 is a different animal allogether.  This is my recapped AR 15 crossover. 

PPTZBxJ.jpg   

Quite a bit different.  Might work but not sure how it would output with the 15's 1 in dome tweeter.

My 15's

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yVUwBpLl.jpg

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18 hours ago, lARrybody said:

I understand where you are coming from 338 (h) (10). The AR25 uses the same size cabinet with the same woofer with a single 6uf tweeter cap. Woofer just rolls off naturally to the 1 1/4 in. cone tweeter. Good sounding speaker. The AR 15 is a different animal allogether.  This is my recapped AR 15 crossover. 

   

Quite a bit different.  Might work but not sure how it would output with the 15's 1 in dome tweeter.

My 15's

 

 

In AR15, the values of the caps are 20uf and 16uf, right? Just wanted to confirm. Also, is there a schematic for the crossover? I am wondering if any of the caps are in series with the driver(s). If they are just in parallel, I may spend less and just buy electrolytic replacements. 

Have you compared AR25 with AR15?

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The AR-25 and the AR-28b are essentially the same speaker.  They have the same drivers and each comes with just a single capacitor in the crossover (6uf vs 5uf).  The AR-25 has a slightly greater internal volume, but that is about it.  So I would expect that they sound about the very much the same.  

As I stated earlier, I have compared the AR-28b to the AR-15.  I found the AR-15 to be a much more accurate speaker then the AR-28b, so I would expect the same results when comparing the AR-25 to the AR-15.   

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AR55 is completely right about the AR-15.  I think I have remarked here that it is my favorite 2 way 8 in. vintage AR speaker. That's not to say that the AR25 is not to be appreciated. When I got my first pair they came with Realistic replacement woofers. They were replaced with AR 200037 woofers. Also original cap replaced with 6uf Erse Plus-X poly. Binding post replaced the spring clips and a L-pad were added to the tweeter circuit.  Currently using them with AR18 speakers on top hooked up in parallel to a Pioneer  SX-980 receiver. My AR-15's are stored away out of rotation right now.

XcVQmOAm.jpgqqnZ8tzm.jpgbgrNyJUm.jpg

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This is just an update. I happen to have some JBL 208H drivers around. These are US-made, 8ohm (measured 7ohm) drivers that were widely used in JBL's speakers in the early 90's -- P50, G500, XE series, etc. Since the fit is perfect, I decided to try them in my AR15. The result was phenomenal, compared to the Bose 8 inchers (which they themselves were not bad at all) -- the sound is coherent, with the right kind of layers/details. I did not sense anything abnormal with respect to frequency transition and sensitivity. 

I obviously do not know how the original drivers sound, but these 208H are cheap and widely available. I recommend trying them as an alternative. 

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