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Ar-3a Capacitor Advice


swayzeeee

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I came upon a pair of AR-3a's in need of some TLC at a price I couldn't resist. I'm following the restoration guide closely and am in the process of trying to clean up the pots, which are quite corroded. As long as I have them open, I figure I'll replace the crossover capacitors as well. I see that each speaker would take a 150uF, 50uF and 6uF capacitor.

Looking at metalized polypropylene crossover capacitors at Parts Express, first off, they don't carry a 150uF. I guess I could wire a 100 and a 50 in parallel, or even three 50s...  but when I add up the costs, it's around $65 per speaker. (That's four 50's @ $15/each + $5 for a 6.2u). Yikes.

NPE's would only cost about $5 per speaker. 

 I've read that the polypropylenes will last longer. Outside of that, is there any other justification for the added expense? Would they sound noticeably better? I'm strongly leaning toward the NPEs... is there any reason I would regret going the el cheapo route later... in, say, the next 20 years? 

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55 minutes ago, swayzeeee said:

I came upon a pair of AR-3a's in need of some TLC at a price I couldn't resist. I'm following the restoration guide closely and am in the process of trying to clean up the pots, which are quite corroded. As long as I have them open, I figure I'll replace the crossover capacitors as well. I see that each speaker would take a 150uF, 50uF and 6uF capacitor.

Looking at metalized polypropylene crossover capacitors at Parts Express, first off, they don't carry a 150uF. I guess I could wire a 100 and a 50 in parallel, or even three 50s...  but when I add up the costs, it's around $65 per speaker. (That's four 50's @ $15/each + $5 for a 6.2u). Yikes.

NPE's would only cost about $5 per speaker. 

 I've read that the polypropylenes will last longer. Outside of that, is there any other justification for the added expense? Would they sound noticeably better? I'm strongly leaning toward the NPEs... is there any reason I would regret going the el cheapo route later... in, say, the next 20 years? 

I recently worried over the same issue.  If you want original performance use NPEs. Ken Kantor advocates replacing like with like.  Poly will last your remaining life, which is the only verifiable difference, otherwise NPEs will get you 20 years minimum.  You will probably have to re-open them for new woofer foam in that time anyway.

Use 3 parallel 50mf for the 150 even though you can get a 150mf NPE. Accumulated wisdom says you will get smaller deviation from spec with the lower value caps. 

Adams

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The Parts Express 150uF comes in an NPE.

You may not like the Dayton film caps. They are OK for shunt caps but I find them horrible for a series cap. Clarity CSA are wonderful in AR speakers IMO, but NPE will sound more natural/as they were intended.

 

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43 minutes ago, DavidR said:

You may not like the Dayton film caps. They are OK for shunt caps but I find them horrible for a series cap. Clarity CSA are wonderful in AR speakers IMO.

David,

He also may not "like" the Clarity cap...especially at the price. "Horrible"...really? ?

I personally do not agree with this subjective assessment. I've used Dayton film (as well as Parts Express NPE) capacitors in hundreds of repairs and restorations. They, as well as the Clarity caps, all work very well as replacements for old worn out capacitors.

swayzeeee, If your original AR-3a capacitors are "Sprague" brand, you probably do not need to replace them at all.

Let the silly capacitor games begin... 

Roy

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1 hour ago, RoyC said:

If your original AR-3a capacitors are "Sprague" brand, you probably do not need to replace them at all.

An LCR meter can be a good investment. They start at $30 on Amazon, even less on ebay. In fact, the ones that look like a kid's science kit and sell for about 10 bucks are quite good and test a variety of components. My technician, who owns thousands of dollars' worth of test equipment bought one and was impressed. Those even test ESR so if you're fanatical about using the "right" capacitor you can address that issue. And besides testing your Spragues, it's not a bad idea to test new caps before installing them.

btw--I tend to use inexpensive caps. Bought a bunch of those 10uF surplus caps whan Madisound had them for ).60 each and otherwise use Carli or Dayton. BUT if you want good quality "esoteric" caps for the 150uF value, Madisound has 155uF ClarityCap ESA series on sale for $59 each. 

PE has the Audyn 100uF 400V for $26 each. Add a 50uF Dayton @ $15 and the 150uF is $41.

The most bang for the buck may be to use NPEs for 50 and 150uF and film caps for 6uF. Carlis are $1.80.  Clarity PX is $6.20. Solen is $3.90.

I'll admit to splurging a little on mine because I didn't want to ever have to re-do them. I used Dayton 100 + 50, 50 and Clarity PX 6uF. I only used the Clarity because I had them on hand. I'm sure I can't hear the difference. I've recapped KLH Model Fives with everything from all NPE to a mix of NPE and film to a mix of surplus and Carli caps to one I did with all ClarityCaps SA series (the older red ones). I couldn't hear any difference. The room, furnishings and signal source will have far greater effect.

-Kent

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2 hours ago, RoyC said:

David,

He also may not "like" the Clarity cap...especially at the price. "Horrible"...really? ?

I personally do not agree with this subjective assessment. I've used Dayton film (as well as Parts Express NPE) capacitors in hundreds of repairs and restorations. They, as well as the Clarity caps, all work very well as replacements for old worn out capacitors.

swayzeeee, If your original AR-3a capacitors are "Sprague" brand, you probably do not need to replace them at all.

Let the silly capacitor games begin... 

Roy

Simply my experience. Nothing more, nothing less.

I always remember Ken Kantor's remarks:

 

image.png

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1 hour ago, JKent said:

An LCR meter can be a good investment. They start at $30 on Amazon, even less on ebay. In fact, the ones that look like a kid's science kit and sell for about 10 bucks are quite good and test a variety of components.

The cheap dollar LCR meters typically do not measure at 1kHz which is what you want to test most NPE caps at. Film caps don't seem to be affected too much by the very low test signals in the cheapo meters.

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5 hours ago, DavidR said:

You may not like the Dayton film caps. They are OK for shunt caps but I find them horrible for a series cap

The truth be known I really don't have a  favorite capacitor. I use them all. Getting ready to use some Jantzen Superior Caps in some 3a's for the 6uf. One 3.3uf and one 2.7uf paralleled. For the 150 and 50 I like to use Dayton polys. I have used two 50's and a hundred, but this time two 75 and one 50 Dayton. There are so many possibilities and opinions that make capacitor discussions confusing at best. I am a diet coke guy, but when flying on a recent trip I  settled for a diet pepsi.

R5zHXI9.jpg

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35 minutes ago, lARrybody said:

 I am a diet coke guy, but when flying on a recent trip I settled for a diet pepsi.

Say it ain't so..?  :o

Oh, let me know how you like the Jantzen Superior Caps?  I've never tried any Jantzen caps.  Curious as to how they sound?

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Mundorf makes an EVO Aluminum poly cap in the 150uF value.  Not cheap, but Parts Connexion is having a 25% off sale, which helps a little.  Though, to be honest, I'd recommend a Mundorf E-Cap 150 NPE.  Just a bit cheaper!  But I would try and use poly caps for the 50uF and the 6uF.  Maybe get those at Parts Connexion too, to take advantage of the sale?

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One other thing.  I do agree with DavidR, as I feel ClarityCaps are a step up from Solen or Dayton film.  Those two are good caps, but the Clarity CSA & ESA caps were better.  I also felt Mundorf EVO Oil caps were very good too.  I found that ClarityCaps had a warmer sound, where the Mundorf EVO Oils were more open and transparent.  Regardless, any brand of new poly caps will be an improvement over stock.  Heck, new NPE's will be an improvement over stock.  Don't worry too much, and just have fun.

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I have no issue with anyone using Dayton caps or whatever cap they want. They simply did not work out in my 91's as a series cap for me. I was never able to listen to them for much more than 20 minutes with the Daytons when listener fatigue would really get under my skin. An A/B test with one having the Clarity caps and my son and I could hear a difference. The Dayton exhibited glare and brightness/white noise. I'm quite happy with the Clarity. I used NPE (Mundorf ECap and Bennic) in my 10Pi and they sound every bit as good as the 91's but I did use Vishay 1837 0.01uF film bypass caps on the two series caps.

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3 hours ago, lARrybody said:

For the 150 and 50 I like to use Dayton polys.[3a]

That's a parallel cap and the frequencies are shunted to ground. You really shouldn't 'hear' it. I too use Daytons in that position.

Let us know about the Jantzen Superior cap.

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Theoretically, you can connect two 300 uf/200v  Sprague electrolytic capacitor in series (- to -)and make it a 150 uf /400v high power non-polar capacitor. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPRAGUE-300uF-200V-POWERLYTIC-Aluminum-Capacitor-4-pieces/172799178449?hash=item283ba236d1:g:bLQAAOSwcYxZkKUq&frcectupt=true

I wonder if someone tried it before?

 

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I don't think it was opening a "can of worms ".  I think it's nice to know there are choices.  Spend a little, or spend a little more.  Nothing wrong with either approach. 

When I spend "a little more", it's usually on the series capacitors, directly in line with the drivers.  I feel using better caps there benefits most on the extra expense.  Parallel caps and shunt caps the get get the cheaper NPE's.

To me, I wanted to spend for a boutique capacitor (there, I said it).  I felt they were worth it, as I feel my Vertical Series AR's have high enough resolution to highlight the differences.  Not everyone feels the need.  But, regardless, I can hear the differences in A/B comparisons.  As such, I'm happy with my recaps.  That's what counts.

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43 minutes ago, Stimpy said:

I'm happy with my recaps.  That's what counts.

Amen to that. And it's fun to experiment. I'll admit to using bypass caps in several applications even though I don't believe I hear any difference. The vishay roederstein mkp1837 or Russian PIOs only cost about a buck apiece, so why not? I even "cascaded" some bypass caps on a recent Hafler 200 rebuild (shown below--that's a 22000uF Nichicon 'lytic, 10uF film, 1uF PIO and 0.01uF mkp1837). And I may try those Mundorf E-caps. But there's a point of diminishing returns that each must decide on for himself.  When I see 1uF caps "sale" priced at $107 (marked down from $214) I gotta wonder. But I have the same attitude about cables. Dirt-cheap no-name cables are questionable but Monoprice has good cables, cheap. BlueJeansCable has very good cables for a little more. Beyond that, IIMHO (and YYMV) it's a waste of money that could be spent on music. Remeber what Carl used to say: "It's all about the music."

innerds resized.jpg

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17 minutes ago, JKent said:

Amen to that. And it's fun to experiment. I'll admit to using bypass caps in several applications even though I don't believe I hear any difference. The vishay roederstein mkp1837 or Russian PIOs only cost about a buck apiece, so why not? I even "cascaded" some bypass caps on a recent Hafler 200 rebuild (shown below--that's a 22000uF Nichicon 'lytic, 10uF film, 1uF PIO and 0.01uF mkp1837). And I may try those Mundorf E-caps. But there's a point of diminishing returns that each must decide on for himself.  When I see 1uF caps "sale" priced at $107 (marked down from $214) I gotta wonder. But I have the same attitude about cables. Dirt-cheap no-name cables are questionable but Monoprice has good cables, cheap. BlueJeansCable has very good cables for a little more. Beyond that, IIMHO (and YYMV) it's a waste of money that could be spent on music. Remeber what Carl used to say: "It's all about the music."

innerds resized.jpg

I've never tried the Vishay bypass caps.  I'd like to, but I have extra Dayton F&F caps around.  Some of those Russian PIO caps too.  Once they're used up, I'll order some.

Care to share details on the Hafler refresh?  I have a DH500 that needs to be recapped.  I'll probably rebuild the driver boards, with one of the kits from eBay.  Do the transistors, since there's no DC Offset on my PC10 boards.  I can handle those mods without issue.  Too color blind to get crazy with changing resistors.

Yea, I miss Carl as well.  I was talking about him last night, when this thread started blowing up.  But, everyone has been civilized, which is great.  Everyone just sharing ideas and opinions.  Nothing wrong there.

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1 hour ago, Stimpy said:

Care to share details on the Hafler refresh?

I did 2. For the first I recapped the original boards but for the second, shown in the previous post and now powering my 3a's, I used Musical Concepts http://www.musicaldesign.com/Haf_pwrmods.html  I used the PA4 boards because they were on closeout for $209. Now they're up to PA6 so you can get the PA5s at a nice reduction ($279 vs $499 for PA6). The Musical Concepts boards do have DC offset adjustment. There are extensive instructions but I found them somewhat confusing at times. The owner, John Hillig was very helpful when I needed support.

I used some parts from ebay seller qua-co (Fantasia Audio) https://www.ebay.com/str/QUA-CO-AUDIO?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 He's a former Hafler employee, located here in NJ. For the first one I used his Hafler 200 semiconductor repair kit,  inrush limiter, and bridge rectifier. I bought new caps for the boards as well as the big 22000uF caps from Mouser. Added new gold RCA jacks and binding posts. I see qua-co now has "HIGH END AUDIOPHILE UPGRADE KIT TOSHIBA JFET CASCODE TOPOLOGY" for the 200 AND for the 500. Those may be a good alternative to the Musical Concepts boards. They're $249 OBO (!) and include RCAs and binding posts.  If I were doing it again I'd buy the big output caps from him too (I think his price is about the same as Mouser). I have NO connection with qua-co, just a satisfied customer. The seller, Ed Fantasia is a good guy and provides fast email support.

Kent

 

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20 hours ago, DavidR said:

Simply my experience. Nothing more, nothing less.

I always remember Ken Kantor's remarks:

 

image.png

Since this started out as an AR-3a thread, I can tell you Ken recommends npe's for AR-3a's as the safest bet, and, in fact, once sent me a personal message saying he was "surprised" I would recommended film caps for the 3a in a public forum. Bear in mind that the differences between 40+ year old drivers, and variable level resistors such as old pots, in the signal path far supersede armchair opinions of alleged sonic nuances of otherwise identical electrical components.

The above quote is misleading, as he was discussing active circuits as well. Ken had a few run-ins with the calibrated-eared boys over in another audio forum. As a co-author of the AR-3a restoration we had a number of conversations with him on this subject. It should be noted that the above had to do with types of capacitors, not brands of capacitors. More than once he reminded us it is best to stick with the same type of replacement capacitor (ie npe, poly, mylar, etc) for a given speaker design, and brand of capacitor was of little consequence.

The OP wanted to know if the expense of film capacitors was worth the expense versus non-polar electrolytic capacitors in a pair of AR-3a's. With regard to sound, the simple answer is no. Let's confuse him by warning him off those potentially "horrible" Dayton film capacitors in favor of "warmer" Clarity capacitors. As I said, silly.

Roy

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Quote

The OP wanted to know if the expense of film capacitors was worth the expense versus non-polar electrolytic capacitors in a pair of AR-3a's. With regard to sound, the simple answer is no. 

 

Thanks, Roy. That was the declarative sentence my wallet was hoping for. ?

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I've recapped several different pairs of AR's, using different brands of capacitors on each. Mainly out of curiosity, to see if I could hear any differences?

First off, my AR-1MS small satellite speakers. A small 2 way. I used Dayton 5% film caps, on the woofers and tweeters. They sounded very good afterwards. Somewhat rich and mellow. Good soundstage depth too. But occasionally, a little spitty and sibilant. So, I added some Dayton Film & Foil bypass caps, which cured the issue.

Next up, a Craigslist find, a pair of AR58S dome mid 3 ways. Already very nice sounding, even with old stock NPE's. Still, I upgraded using ClarityCap ESA and CSA caps on the dome mids and tweeters. Shunt caps were Bennic electrolytic. The Clarity's took a bit of break in, before settling down. Dark and closed in, in the upper mids at first. Eventually, they opened up. Warm and relaxed, with decent detail. A wide soundstage, but maybe not as deep sounding as the Daytons. Very musical.

Finally, my big AR90's. On those, I went all out (for me, at least). I used Mundorf film caps. All the series caps were Mundorf EVO Oils, and on the dome mids and tweeters, I added smaller value Mundorf Supreme caps, where I needed to parallel caps, for the correct values. The lower midrange used all EVO oil. Shunt caps were Axon film too. The 350uF bass cap was a Mundorf E-Cap and an Axon film in parallel.

To me, the Mundorf's sounded best of all the caps I tried. Maybe not as warm as the ClarityCaps, but clean, clear, and detailed. Not bright, just very low coloration. Very transparent. Music much more present. More palpable. Even my son commented that the old stock caps sounded distorted, with slight static in the sound, compared to the Mundorf's. The Mundorf's need more break in, but I'm still refinishing the 90's. So, more listening time later.

All the film caps sounded good. Much better than worn out electrolytic caps. Though, each did have a different sound signature/flavor. None that I wouldn't use again. Though, I do want to try Audyn caps one day. Maybe if I find a air of AR9's?

Oh, much of my professional career was spent in audio mastering.  Twenty years prepping master tapes for CD, cassette, LP, and DVD  production.  Listening all day long, day in, day out, for sonic issues.  That definitely teaches you how to listen, and how to notice differences in audio.  Hearing differences in the sound of various capacitors wasn't difficult, after that.

Finally, all of my AR speakers use the same 0.75" dome tweeters. The 3 ways use the same tweeters and mids. The same gear was used as well. I think that makes my comparisons valid. Hopefully, others will feel the same?  No arguments.  Just posting my personal findings, from A/B testing.  At least I'm happy with my results!

 

P.S.

Almost forgot - I just picked up a single AR92, for use as a center speaker.  It's been recapped with Mundorf E-Cap NPE's.  Sticking closer to stock, as another experiment.  So, my front set up is AR58S - AR92 - AR58S.  The 58S with film caps, and the 92's with NPE's.  And these 3 speakers do not sound alike.  Same mids and tweeters, but a very different presentation.  I wonder why?  B)

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