AR5 - Project no.2

[crumpets]

After some great feedback on how to restore my Ar6's, I thought I'd share these pics of my AR5's so that I may order the required parts for this next project.

I must admit I really had very little knowledge of these when I got them a few months ago. The one thing I was able to notice is that the tweeters no longer had the external wiring.  At the time I wasn't sure why, but turns out the tweeter has been replaced at some stage with this 200013-2 replacement tweeter. The mids appear original and are certainly working. Pretty well, if beautifully vocals are anything to go by.

The woofers are 1210040-2A's. I can't really work out if these are original or replacements. They sounded pretty dull and lifeless, but when I unscrewed them I found them to be without any gaskets at all, so that wouldn't have helped.

The cabinets are very solid, and apart from a few deepish indentations on top, seem like they could come up nicely.

One other thing that seems like it has been already addressed is the potentiometers. They look very clean(newish) and are working well.

As far as replacing worn parts, I am clueless. I will post the pics and hope for some advice. I am about to order some caps for AR6's, so thought it would be good to order what I might need to get these 5's working to their potential. Any advice would be much appreciated. Maybe I need to remove the filling to take some better pics inside.

I was playing them quite a bit when I first got them. As mentioned, the realistic warm vocals stood out. There was a distinct lack of punch in bass, and a lot of the detail seemed absent. I probably should give them a run with new gaskets to get a truer benchmark.

[JKent]

Nice ? 

The new pots are L-pads so I ‘m guessing they’re replacements 

If.you haven’t already done so, be sure to download the AR-3a repair manual

-Kent 

[ra.ra]

crumpets,  JKent is correct, those rotary controls are not original, but some would argue that is not a bad thing. The original ceramic pots are notoriously fussy and temperamental, and those L-pad replacements are often deemed more reliable than the originals. Sometimes when using L-pads as replacements, an additional resistor is recommended, but am not sure if this notion applies to the AR-5. They should be fine to keep in your speakers, and it's nice to see that the original knobs were installed on the backside.

I think your speakers have been worked on in these areas: tweeters, crossover rotary controls, and woofers.

Those cabinets are beautiful - - - any chance they might be teak veneer? They almost look too light and golden to be walnut. My knowledge of AR-5 is limited, but attached are two good schematics: one original AR document and one with wire color designations. They show a different midrange resistor value but don't worry about that - - I think this is just an unidentified nichrome wire, which should remain as it is. Your capacitors are original, and probably all would benefit from replacement - - - the big block contains both the 24 and 72uF caps, as evidenced by three wires; the small cylinder should be 4uF.

Your tweeter (013-2) is the correct part number for AR-5, and is a later (1983) factory service replacement provided with rear-wiring tabs. Midrange driver appears original, dated from 1974, and is largely responsible for the great vocals you have mentioned.

Once again, the woofer appears to be the central issue here - -  I think you may have acquired two pairs of great AR speaker models (AR-5, AR-6) where unfortunately, the original woofers were tossed because the original foams deteriorated. What you have are 040 woofers, produced by Tonegen. I believe the original 040 woofer was created for the AR-14 in the mid 70's, and then found its way into subsequent models like the AR-48s and 48b. Your diminished bass response is very possibly due to incorrect woofer. The proper woofer for the AR-5 is p/n 200004, as shown in image attached. This same woofer p/n is often found with square ceramic magnet, which delivers similar performance.  

[RoyC]

45 minutes ago, ra.ra said:

Sometimes when using L-pads as replacements, an additional resistor is recommended, but am not sure if this notion applies to the AR-5.

I think your speakers have been worked on in these areas: tweeters, crossover rotary controls, and woofers.

attached are two good schematics: one original AR document and one with wire color designations. They show a different midrange resistor value but don't worry about that - - I think this is just an unidentified nichrome wire, which should remain as it is.

As always, comprehensive info from ra.ra!

Just a few additional thoughts:

-The nichrome resistor wire is 1.5 ohms as shown in the AR schematic. The colored schematic is an old one of mine, and I've seen many more 5's since then.

-The schematics show the later (and most common) iteration of the AR-5's crossover. The first version had #6 and #8 AR coils instead of #10 and #11.

-What appears to be typical L-pads may actually be 15 ohm replacement pots. Note the "15" on the back of the control in the photo. AR was selling replacement pots just like these in the 80's until the very early 90's. They held up quite well. Their time frame would be consistent with the Tonegen/Japanese 1210040-2a replacement woofer.

Roy

 

[ra.ra]

24 minutes ago, RoyC said:

-What appears to be typical L-pads may actually be 15 ohm replacement pots. Note the "15" on the back of the control in the photo. AR was selling replacement pots just like these in the 80's until the very early 90's. They held up quite well. Their time frame would be consistent with the Tonegen/Japanese 1210040-2a replacement woofer.

Great catch, Roy, on the coil history and that "15" marking. We've discussed this device before, but mostly with respect to early AR-3 speakers - - I had no idea this replacement pot was still lingering well into the 80's and 90's (and still it is confusingly masquerading about as a more modern L-pad). 

Regarding your comment on the 040-2a woofer, are you suggesting this would have been a suitable replacement for the AR-5 in lieu of the original 004 woofer(s)? .....and without any crossover adjustment? If so, any theories about the OP's unsatisfactory bass output?

And about the two schematics - - I thought the colored schematic (very nice!, btw) might have been your creation, and I know you once corrected the resistor value, but I simply could not recall which schematic was most accurate.

[RoyC]

On 2/3/2019 at 12:24 AM, ra.ra said:

Great catch, Roy, on the coil history and that "15" marking. We've discussed this device before, but mostly with respect to early AR-3 speakers - - I had no idea this replacement pot was still lingering well into the 80's and 90's (and still it is confusingly masquerading about as a more modern L-pad). 

Regarding your comment on the 040-2a woofer, are you suggesting this would have been a suitable replacement for the AR-5 in lieu of the original 004 woofer(s)? .....and without any crossover adjustment? If so, any theories about the OP's unsatisfactory bass output?

And about the two schematics - - I thought the colored schematic (very nice!, btw) might have been your creation, and I know you once corrected the resistor value, but I simply could not recall which schematic was most accurate.

I believe the last time I was able to get the 15 ohm masquerading-as-an-L-pad replacement pot from AB Tech was about 1992. It first showed up in the 80's, was Japanese made, and very well built. Referring to the photo, there appears to be an ohm symbol stamped in the control after the "15" stamp. I was only suggesting that those controls would fit the timeline of the Tonegen replacement woofer, which would have been the only new AR 10 inch replacement woofer available at the time. The repair work could have been done at the same time. The original woofers would be better.

There appears to be a fair amount of non-original wiring, so it would be prudent to carefully check out the crossovers.

Roy

[crumpets]

Working my way through that AR-3a repair manual now, Kent. So much great information there.

That is good news about the replacement pots, the orig. mid and the tweeter being a suitable replacement. But, the woofer! I guess this is what happens when you buy with very little knowledge of what you're getting. Am I right in saying that one of the 2ax versions shared the same driver? Anyway, unless someone happens to have a pair of AR5 woofers they would part with, I may have to make do with the 040's. Highly unlikely to find others here in Aus.

I did install the rubberised cork gaskets on the AR5 woofers today(pic). I think it has certainly helped quite a bit. I would still need to replace mid/tweeter gaskets to get a better seal, I think. I had a good listen to them and played around with the pot settings. Best I could come up with was with the HI on full, and the MID approx. 75%. They actually sounded pretty good. Well, what you can hear sounds very good. It's just that there is some detail/separation missing, more on instruments than vocals. I hope I'm describing it accurately. On the 18's you can hear every little detail, which I guess is what I like. Is that missing detail the effect worn out caps might have, or should I just not expect the same personality from such different AR models? Mind you, comparing the sound of my 5's to my father's 2ax results in the same conclusion - Where are the details, the subtleties?

Regarding caps... the article states that "If you install PP capacitors, you may wish to add a small amount of series resistance to compensate for their reduced ESR and maintain the authenticity of the AR crossover."

As I would likely be going for the same Dayton 250V poly caps in 4, 24, 72, do you guys think the additional resistors would be necessary in this case? Maybe I should get NPE's to avoid wondering.

I've included another couple of pics of the cabinets. I'm not sure what the veneer is. It is not dissimilar to my 9LSi's. They are the "real walnut veneer", so the 5's may also be. I'll include a pic of the 9's. I'm also having a bit of trouble getting the best out of them. Not sure if it is my Crown/Sansui amp combo or what, but I'm pretty sure they should sound better. They are in great condition cosmetically and, to date, I have not so much as undone a screw. So basically, I currently have just the one pair that sound comparable to the beautiful AR sound you guys discuss, the 18's! I got some work to do! Again, thank you all for your help.

 

 

[crumpets]

Just been searching re. the noticeable effects of drifting caps. Well, I really am a newbie! The prospect of lifting that veiled effect is very exciting.

[lakecat]

52 minutes ago, crumpets said:

Just been searching re. the noticeable effects of drifting caps. Well, I really am a newbie! The prospect of lifting that veiled effect is very exciting.

The new caps will make a difference. Tweet on hi and mid at 75% is about normal on these and AR3a speakers in my experience. Good luck on your project. 

[RoyC]

On 2/3/2019 at 6:59 AM, crumpets said:

Working my way through that AR-3a repair manual now, Kent. So much great information there.

On the 18's you can hear every little detail, which I guess is what I like. Is that missing detail the effect worn out caps might have, or should I just not expect the same personality from such different AR models? Mind you, comparing the sound of my 5's to my father's 2ax results in the same conclusion - Where are the details, the subtleties?

Regarding caps... the article states that "If you install PP capacitors, you may wish to add a small amount of series resistance to compensate for their reduced ESR and maintain the authenticity of the AR crossover."

As I would likely be going for the same Dayton 250V poly caps in 4, 24, 72, do you guys think the additional resistors would be necessary in this case? Maybe I should get NPE's to avoid wondering.

crumpets,

When we were putting together the 3a guide, I lobbied for not mentioning the use of small series caps with the film caps to avoid debate and confusion. The 3a type level controls more than make up for any small differences in ESR. In fact, the typically compromised old tweeters are more likely to be somewhat negatively impacted by the additional resistance. If complete originality is the primary goal, I would simply use electrolytic caps (I have used them for some restorations and they work fine). On the other hand, the Daytons you are contemplating will work very well and last forever. Either way, don't worry about the small resistors.

...Which leads me to your observations regarding lack of detail, etc, in comparison with your AR-18's. After reading similar comments in your AR-6 thread I doubt replacing caps will change your impressions very much. I believe there is a very good chance you are hearing a combination of the difference between the more reticent high frequency voicing of the early models vs the more forward character of the 18's, along with the very real possibility the tweeters in your other models are compromised. This is especially true of the AR-5 tweeters. Of course, replacing the caps is a prudent step to take, but I suspect it will not bring about the dramatic improvement you are expecting.

Regarding your other questions...Your AR-5 cabinets are walnut veneer, and the 2ax and 5 shared the same woofer.

Roy

 

[crumpets]

18 hours ago, lakecat said:

The new caps will make a difference. Tweet on hi and mid at 75% is about normal on these and AR3a speakers in my experience. Good luck on your project. 

Thanks lakecat, I'll be sure to update when I get something done.

[Aadams]

Crumpets.

RE: The Tweeters

One reason your AR18 sounds better than your AR5 is the division of work among the drivers.  In the 18, all the high notes AND sparkly bits are in a single durable driver (tweeter) as opposed to the AR5 where almost all the higher musical notes are in the midrange driver and the tweeter with rare exceptions reproduces only high harmonics.  Your tweeters, to quote RoyC, are compromised in the sense that they appear normal and operate but their output is so diminished they cannot be brought into a pleasing balance. The sound difference in comparison to a correctly working tweeter is stark.  

Properly functioning AR5s are fully capable of presenting the sparkly atmospherics that you are missing and for which there are remedies but, without knowing what is practical in your part of the world, it is difficult for any of us to recommend a viable plan of action.  Assuming your goal is to get your AR5 close to original performance, if you were the in US the recommendations, in rank order, would be:

-         1. Have your tweeters rebuilt

-           2. Purchase a HiVi tweeter with the inductor mod as discussed in the AR3a Restoration Guide.

Do not trash your original tweeters.   Auction them off or save them for the day you can have them rebuilt.

Adams

[ra.ra]

On 2/3/2019 at 1:11 AM, RoyC said:

....the 15 ohm .... replacement pot from AB Tech .... It first showed up in the 80's, was Japanese made....

Roy, I must have misunderstood when we previously discussed this after I pulled these pots out of some beat-up AR-3 cabinets - - - I thought they were an occasional mid-60's alternative to the typical Aetna-Pollak pots, and not an AB Tech replacement component from two decades later. Thanks for the clarification. This pair (which were unusable) had both the 15-ohm designation stamped on the backside and the Japan markings on the front.    

crumpets, you've got a fine growing collection of acclaimed AR models there. Not sure what else to say if the bass output remains deficient - - - this should not be the case with properly working AR-5's - - - but you may very well notice significant improvements after cap replacement on the 5's. As many have confirmed, the Daytons are very good choices, but  there's no need to use a huge and expensive ($45 each on Wagner site) poly cap for the 75uF woofer circuit.  

[crumpets]

Great job with the AR3a guide you guys. What an excellent resource.

Thanks Roy, no resistors required eliminates one task, which helps.

I am trying to get my head around the AR5 tweeter performance being discussed. Adams, "the sparkly atmospherics" is a very good description of what seems to be missing. It hadn't entered my mind that the tweeters might be functioning below par. I thought that because the level switches were affecting the tweeter output, that the tweeters must be ok. I can see why Roy is tempering my high hopes of bringing that sparkle back with just the cap replacement. I appreciate the 2 options given(repair/replace). I have no idea if there is anyone in Aus qualified to rebuild that tweeter, or what it might cost. If the recap is not satisfying, I will look further into both options.

Which brings me to the parts list for both the AR5 and AR6 that I hope to now order.

AR6

2 x 22uF + 2 x 2.2uF 100V NPE's for the woofer R/C attachments

2 x 10uF Dayton 250V Poly Caps

AR5

2 x 4uF + 2 x 25uF Dayton 250V Poly Caps for tweeters/mids

2 x 68 + 2 x 3.9 100V NPE's to replace the 72uF woofer cap

Does this look ok? I've gone with your suggestion ra.ra. in regards to AR5 woofer caps. The closest wagner has to 72uF in those NPE's is 68uF. I'm guessing that is not quite close enough, hence 68+3.9.

One other thing I should mention is that while I do have a soldering iron, I am yet to ever use it. Don't laugh, I told you I was a newbie! I remember seeing somewhere that there may be an alternative way to connect the new caps, but can't remember where I saw it. Should I just do a bit of practice honing my non-existent soldering skills, or is there an option that may give a better result than a below par soldering effort?

I've been listening to the AR5's a fair bit. The new gaskets on the woofers definitely improved things. If the recap improves the bass just a little more, I think that will be ok. My concern is, if the bass output does improve to a satisfactory level with the recap, is there still an underlying issue, having those non-original 040-2a woofers installed, that could keep a lid on the mid/high range performance, even if the mids/tweeters were working properly? Or should the 040-2a's be "close enough" for that not to be a huge issue? I keep coming back to the "sparkly atmospherics". At least with new caps and fresh gaskets on the mids and tweeters I will have a better idea of where things stand. Thanks for being patient with my lack of knowledge.

Btw, ra.ra, my collection was never meant to get to this. It was only about a year ago that I stumbled across my first pair of AR's, the 94's. I had bought/sold a few pairs of modern speakers over the years, in an attempt to find that feeling I used to have when listening to music in my teens(from early 80's). That connection to the music that could literally make you cry. I saw the 94's in an online ad. I'd never heard of AR speakers before then, but the unusual appearance of them piqued my interest. A quick search led me to this site and some glowing praise of that model(much appreciated!), so I jumped on them. The same fellow also had a Sansui 555a, which I grabbed as well. When I hooked them up, I was completely blown away. It had been a long time since I'd heard anything quite like that. I continued to read more threads here and got a little ahead of myself. The collection obviously grew before I had sufficient knowledge to identify potential issues, like I am now trying to address with the AR5's. I guess the AR bug has bitten me, because I can't bear to part with any of them. So, there's only one thing left to do. Try to bring them back to their best, and hopefully enjoy them. I can't thank you guys enough for giving me the confidence to have a crack at it.

[crumpets]

Well, I've just discovered that one of the AR5 tweeters is not producing any sound. I just noticed it when I turned the MID dial down to zero. There is nothing coming out of that tweeter, no matter where I turn the HIGH to. The tweeter in the other speaker is very responsive under the same test.

Looks like I need to do some troubleshooting tomorrow. I wonder if I've made another rookie mistake and not picked up that this tweeter has not been working all along.

I suppose I can swap the tweeters over. If the "dead" tweeter works in the other box, I guess it narrows things down. If it doesn't work in the other box.....perish the thought!

[Aadams]

Don't move the tweeters.   If you feel competent, disconnect the speaker wire and touch the + and - at the points circled below.   Keep the volume low and on a signal at which the tweeter should operate. 

Your working tweeter is still not operating correctly.  It is a cruel illusion that is only satisfying if you can't hear above 6000hz.  The AR3a resto guide was written before an enterprising AR enthusiast figured out how to rebuild them.  The HIVI gets good marks as a substitute and I am certain will provide what you are looking for on axis but, for now apparently, there really is nothing that matches those old tweeters if you want to hear the Roy Allison AR sound.

Adams

 

[crumpets]

Thanks Adams, I have done what you suggested. I did it on both tweeter and yes, only one is working. Very disappointing, but there you go.

After having another look at the AR3a guide, I noticed the pic of the 1200029-1 tweeters in the appendix. Could this be an option for the replacement? My father has a pair of 92's that he picked up cheaply. This is a pic of them. The tweeters appear to be original, so prob. the 1200029-1's. I haven't asked him to check them yet, or if he would donate them, but is this an option?

[Aadams]

Crumpets

Because you addressed me, I will reply. 

The tweeter will fit and operate but it is not the tweeter that I would expect anyone here to recommend for an AR5.  The purist in me says the AR92 tweeter would be out of character for the AR5 but it could be made to work adequately with crossover changes which could be calculated by some of the more talented folks here but even then, would be an approximation and, you may not like the result.

Considering your location, your most expedient and cost-effective solution for the tweeter, IMO, is the HIVI mod which if you DIY is less expensive than a tweeter rebuild. Fully pre-assembled and ready to drop in it costs about the same as rebuild.

However, you might want to take another path for now.  Consider this.  Put your AR5 woofers in your father’s 92s and I think you will have fully functioning correct 92s. You can then look for a pair of AR2ax 4 bolt woofers which are plentiful.

Adams

[crumpets]

Thanks for those suggestions, Adams. If I can get hold of some 2ax woofers, I will put these 040-2a's in the 92's. The mids in those 92's also look to be 2 different drivers. Not sure what's going on there.

Anyway, I'll think I'll go with the hivi replacement driver in the 5's.

Is this the "fully pre-assembled" driver you referred to?

https://www.parts-express.com/hivi-q1r-1-1-8-textile-dome-tweeter--297-417

I checked PE and the shipping to here is less than $40 for the parts I think I need.

Along with the caps I listed earlier, I believe I will also need to order the 0.05 18AWG inductor coil that is recommended.

I am also going to replace the 4uF caps with 3uF, going off Roy's recommendation in another thread in reference to using the hivi in an AR5, " reduce the 4uf cap to a 3uf cap to bring the HiVi a bit closer to the original tweeter".

 

[Aadams]

Yes that is the correct tweeter but not the version that is pre-assembled for your application.  Read the above thread.  You can put a cap in series and keep your crossover standard to later drop in a rebuilt original.    Your 5s are already back wired so no front wire conversion.  Read closely and ask questions. 

The fully pre-assembled version is available from another supplier who is currently closed for 6 weeks.  You could message RoyC about possibly acquiring a pair.

Adams

 

[RoyC]

7 hours ago, crumpets said:

I am also going to replace the 4uF caps with 3uF, going off Roy's recommendation in another thread in reference to using the hivi in an AR5, " reduce the 4uf cap to a 3uf cap to bring the HiVi a bit closer to the original tweeter".

crumpets,

Given your satisfaction with the AR-18, and the fact that you are using level controls with the same electrical characteristics as the originals, I would stay with the original 4uf cap. It will still sound like an AR-5, and will retain the option to easily go back to the original tweeters if they become available. (Btw, the higher cap value allows a bit more tweeter output.)

All the required parts are available from Parts Express.

Roy

[crumpets]

I have been doing a fair bit or reading. Sorry, but I'm still a bit confused re. the hivi assembly. Do I just need the hivi tweeter from PE with the 0.05 inductor coil added, or is there more to it?

Thanks Roy, I'll stick with 4uF. Would you recommend assembling the hivi myself in this instance(inexperienced, but happy to give it a go) ?

[Aadams]

Look at the thread, there are photos of how it should be wired.  This example has opposite polarity........ the yellow and black are crossed.    There are other examples.  I don't know if the series cap is required but the coil is necessary. Will try to find more images.

 

[Aadams]

Here is another thread from 2016 with images, diagrams and discussion. It looks like the series 6uf cap is advised for the AR5.

 

[crumpets]

Thanks again, that clears it up. I can order the 6uF just in case. I think I can put that together, so I think I'll place the order. Cheers.