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AR 9 Tweeters and Upper Mids Again


brianw
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i have experimented in the ar11 in a number of different ways.

so far, the ar11 tweeter in the ar11 box is worst to me.

 

overall, im not a fan of the ar11.   I dont like its sound and that includes the bass, most offensive to my ear is the midrange.   I think that crossover design is makes it sound this way.

 

I am in progress of a modified crossover on the ar11.....see soon

 

But I wasnt going into that.   I was referring to the tweeter only.....and the Hivi is much sweeter and enjoyable than the ar11 tweeter

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25 minutes ago, harry398 said:

i have experimented in the ar11 in a number of different ways.

so far, the ar11 tweeter in the ar11 box is worst to me.

 

overall, im not a fan of the ar11.   I dont like its sound and that includes the bass, most offensive to my ear is the midrange.   I think that crossover design is makes it sound this way.

 

I am in progress of a modified crossover on the ar11.....see soon

 

But I wasnt going into that.   I was referring to the tweeter only.....and the Hivi is much sweeter and enjoyable than the ar11 tweeter

Did you listen to the AR-9 tweeter in the same AR-11?

The question is if they sound the same/very similar with the same crossover.

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So you refuse to answer so that we can understand what you actually did,

and rather demand that they sound different?   Nevermind, I have both tweeters and 

an A/B switch so perhaps I'll compare them myself.

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17 minutes ago, Pete B said:

@brianw  I find it odd that you point out that there are modern tweeters with very flat 

response such as this .75" tweeter from SB Acoustics - note the very flat response:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/soft-dome-tweeters-sb-acoustics/sb-acoustics-sb19st-c000-4-3/4-dome-tweeter-4-ohms/

And you're told that will change the sound of an AR speaker, rather you are told to use

a tweeter that _looks_ exactly like an AR .75" tweeter but does not perform electro-acoustically

anything like the AR original .75" tweeters. 

Drink the coolaid!

Pete,

This isn't a contest or a business enterprise. Collective experience and expertise is the strength of this forum. If you are ready to purchase an SB tweeter and manufacture an adapter faceplate, I for one would be very interested in your experience. Brian was suggesting changing "a couple or three drivers". I simply suggested it should be in the "mod and tweak" section of the forum.

Roy

PS Since we are being ultra technical, Kool-aid is spelled with a "k". ?

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45 minutes ago, Pete B said:

Did you listen to the AR-9 tweeter in the same AR-11?

The question is if they sound the same/very similar with the same crossover.

Pete, 

I wanted to provide my listening experiences with two pair of AR11's I owned specifically with the tweeter. These were both recapped with original value dayton npe from parts express. 

Both pair of 11's had higher output than my 3a's but lacked the smoothness of voice with an exaggerated ch~sh tones to true s sounds. I was able to pick up a pair of AR9 tweeters and installed them in one pair with an immediate natural clarity as compared to the original 11 tweeters. 

This was the improvement needed to make these speakers enjoyable.

11.JPG

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1 hour ago, harry398 said:

lol.........its ok to disagree Roy......

How does Larry feel about his AR9lsi?

No problem, Harry. :)

Larry seems to like the LSI alot.

Btw, Larry is actually very liberal on the tweeter topic. He has literally sold many hundreds of replacement tweeters ranging from every iteration of AB Tech offering of the last 20 years to the HiVi replacement. He has had only a few "non-originality" complaints in nearly 2 decades. We geeks are actually an extremely small slice of the AR pie when it comes to these matters. Ease of repair/replacement is as important as anything else to most people.

Roy

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39 minutes ago, cARver said:

Pete, 

I wanted to provide my listening experiences with two pair of AR11's I owned specifically with the tweeter. These were both recapped with original value dayton npe from parts express. 

Both pair of 11's had higher output than my 3a's but lacked the smoothness of voice with an exaggerated ch~sh tones to true s sounds. I was able to pick up a pair of AR9 tweeters and installed them in one pair with an immediate natural clarity as compared to the original 11 tweeters. 

This was the improvement needed to make these speakers enjoyable.

11.JPG

Thanks, good to know!

I pulled out my AR-9 tweeters and will take some measurements to see how similar they are.

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48 minutes ago, RoyC said:

Pete,

This isn't a contest or a business enterprise. Collective experience and expertise is the strength of this forum. If you are ready to purchase an SB tweeter and manufacture an adapter faceplate, I for one would be very interested in your experience. Brian was suggesting changing "a couple or three drivers". I simply suggested it should be in the "mod and tweak" section of the forum.

Roy

PS Since we are being ultra technical, Kool-aid is spelled with a "k". ?

My comments had nothing to do with business rather if you are going to complain 

about an off the shelf tweeter being non-original you should also complain if a "copy"

only looks the same.  You can't ignore the science behind choosing a good replacement.

We can just agree to disagree.

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1 hour ago, Pete B said:

My comments had nothing to do with business rather if you are going to complain 

about an off the shelf tweeter being non-original you should also complain if a "copy"

only looks the same.  You can't ignore the science behind choosing a good replacement.

We can just agree to disagree.

I wasn't "complaining" about a single off the shelf tweeter.  If you recall, I'm the one who came up with the "off the shelf" HiVi tweeter, which has turned out to be quite accepted. I would be much more interested in your hands-on experience rather than speculation on various drivers. It would, of course, actually require purchasing some of them.

Roy

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21 minutes ago, RoyC said:

I wasn't "complaining" about a single off the shelf tweeter.  If you recall, I'm the one who came up with the "off the shelf" HiVi tweeter, which has turned out to be quite accepted. I would be much more interested in your hands-on experience rather than speculation on various drivers. It would, of course, actually require purchasing some of them.

Roy

"Them"?  I already have the SB tweeters and sorry I'm not buying the MT-4121 tweeter based on

the measurements - they don't lie.  They are not even the correct impedance with those high

double bumps.

My interest in this is to solve problems using what I know and the tools that I have to do

the job, it is a hobby for me and the enjoyment comes from using science to finding the best solution.

 

It costs a lot of money to sample all the possible drivers that one might use in a new design or as a

replacement and many designers use the data provided by Zaph at this web page - you might note

that the MT-4121 would probably be ranked a reject if Zaph ever tested it since the majority of the

tweeters here have a flat response:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/

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1 minute ago, Pete B said:

"Them"?  I already have the SB tweeters and sorry I'm not buying the MT-4121 tweeter based on

the measurements - they don't lie.

Great, why don't you install 'em in an AR-11 and AR-9 and let us know how they work out compared to your AR tweeters? 

You are very trusting of those measurements. That's not the Pete I know...though I agree, it is expensive. If I still had it I would have sent you the one I purchased, but it was sold with the one Larry purchased.

Roy

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When I purchase drivers I look at measurements first when available.

I'm open to do some testing of drivers if people want to send some of the options.

I don't usually do amplitude response but you can learn a lot from the input impedance.

I'd like to test an AR-11 tweeter that has not been used in a party system with a 300W/ch amp

as mine were.

My AR-9 tweeters were used by a lady with a 250W/ch Soundcraftsman amp also used hard.

As far as the SB tweeters go, I bought them for another project.  I prefer a tighter tweeter

to midrange spacing for AR speakers and chose something else for the mid/tweeter 

plate that I came up with:    http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/10245-not-an-ar-15-midrange/

If you go to the Blue Mountain or Frankenfest I'll bring this to demo:

NOT-AR-11-FRONT-SM.jpg

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17 hours ago, Pete B said:

  I prefer a tighter tweeter

to midrange spacing for AR speakers and chose something else for the mid/tweeter 

plate that I came up with:    http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/10245-not-an-ar-15-midrange/

If you go to the Blue Mountain or Frankenfest I'll bring this to demo:

 

Interesting  project, Pete. Is there any reason you do not identify the drivers you are using? It might be even more interesting in light of the conversations in this thread.

Roy

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I expect someone on ebay will copy and sell it so I'm keeping quiet for now.  It was not

easy finding a 1.5" midrange that would work.

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34 minutes ago, Pete B said:

I expect someone on ebay will copy and sell it so I'm keeping quiet for now.  It was not

easy finding a 1.5" midrange that would work.

I was thinking more of the tweeter since that is what we've been discussing.

Are you planning on selling it?

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I did not plan on selling the tweeter on a plate alone but if you'd like to try

them I'll make a pair for you to test out.  Would you be testing it in AR-11, 3a, or AR-9

application?  I expect each will need different fine tuning to work best.

I can make the tweeter plates out of wood but I also ordered a 3D printer last night.

A minor issue with this tweeter is that the diameter is not a standard metric or SAE

size so I use the next larger size and planned to fill with black RTV which should work 

fine, but with 3D printing I can do any size.

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6 hours ago, Pete B said:

I did not plan on selling the tweeter on a plate alone but if you'd like to try

them I'll make a pair for you to test out.  Would you be testing it in AR-11, 3a, or AR-9

application?  I expect each will need different fine tuning to work best.

I can make the tweeter plates out of wood but I also ordered a 3D printer last night.

A minor issue with this tweeter is that the diameter is not a standard metric or SAE

size so I use the next larger size and planned to fill with black RTV which should work 

fine, but with 3D printing I can do any size.

Actually I was just wondering what your intentions are. I'll follow your progress in your project thread.

It will be interesting to see how your new printer works. It should make trying out different tweeters much easier.

Roy

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On 1/29/2019 at 4:10 PM, Pete B said:

@brianw  I find it odd that you point out that there are modern tweeters with very flat 

response such as this .75" tweeter from SB Acoustics - note the very flat response:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/soft-dome-tweeters-sb-acoustics/sb-acoustics-sb19st-c000-4-3/4-dome-tweeter-4-ohms/

And you're told that will change the sound of an AR speaker, rather you are told to use

a tweeter that _looks_ exactly like an AR .75" tweeter but does not perform electro-acoustically

anything like the AR original .75" tweeters. 

Drink the coolaid!

HI Pete

Point well taken, coolaid swallowed.  So for my own curiosity I have come down to a few possible tweeters I would like to experiment with on a sound level even though specs make require adjustment to the upper frequency cross over.  I have also sourced a fabricator locally who can produce an adapter plate quite reasonably to prevent making any alterations to the actual cabinets. 

Should be a good experiment for myself to sit a modifed AR 9 next to one of my original AR 9's to do an A/B comparison.  Before I do any ordering of tweeters I thought it best to get your professional opinions, like and dislikes.  

Also I am interested in the 3D printer that you have ordered Pete, that would make sense for prototyping and playing with alternate drivers, I may to some quick research and follow in your footsteps.    
 

So so far these are the tweeters I am thinking of including the SB Acoustics SB19ST-C000-4 you mentioned.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/soft-dome-tweeters-sb-acoustics/sb-acoustics-sb19st-c000-4-3/4-dome-tweeter-4-ohms/

SB Acoustics SB29RDC-C000-4 (4 ohm )
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ring-radiator-tweeters/sb-acoustics-sb29rdc-c000-4-ring-dome-tweeter/

Peerless XT25TG30  1" Dual Ring Radiator (4ohm)
https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-xt25tg30-04-1-dual-ring-radiator-tweeter--264-1016

SEAS Prestige 25TFFC (H0519) Textile Dome Tweeter  ( 6 ohm )
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/soft-dome-tweeters-seas/seas-prestige-25tffc-h0519-textile-dome-tweeter/#tab-1

 

Brian

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My opinion is that if a product was originally designed with a .75" tweeter you should

stick to it when trying to stay as close as possible so that leaves you with the SB.  I just

measured my AR-9 tweeter and there is an issue, I'll post the results later tonight or ASAP.

What type of shop are you going to use?

Have you noticed that ring radiators, even .75" have inferior dispersion as compared to 

normal dome tweeters? 

The AR-9 tweeter has a very high Fc which is part of the electro-acoustical response and,

don't laugh, but this tweeter with a 10 ohm resistor across it would probably work fine:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/audax-soft-dome-tweeters/audax-tw010f1-10-mm-polymer-dome-tweeter/

They would probably fail, even with the high crossover point, if you run over 200W/ch into

them at party levels.  The SB is better but the Fc is way off and will require crossover mods

or compensation.

This is the 3D printer that I have on order:  http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/10492-3d-printer-for-mods/

 

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15 hours ago, Pete B said:

My opinion is that if a product was originally designed with a .75" tweeter you should

stick to it when trying to stay as close as possible so that leaves you with the SB.  I just

measured my AR-9 tweeter and there is an issue, I'll post the results later tonight or ASAP.

What type of shop are you going to use?

Have you noticed that ring radiators, even .75" have inferior dispersion as compared to 

normal dome tweeters? 

The AR-9 tweeter has a very high Fc which is part of the electro-acoustical response and,

don't laugh, but this tweeter with a 10 ohm resistor across it would probably work fine:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/audax-soft-dome-tweeters/audax-tw010f1-10-mm-polymer-dome-tweeter/

They would probably fail, even with the high crossover point, if you run over 200W/ch into

them at party levels.  The SB is better but the Fc is way off and will require crossover mods

or compensation.

This is the 3D printer that I have on order:  http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/10492-3d-printer-for-mods/

 

I would agree that sticking to same dome type would be good although although the materials and characteristics of the dome will still cause many differences.  The shop is is a metal fabricator, the bonus is they have a CNC machine, so I will have to supply and original plate for them to scan, should be interesting, found them through a friend who owns a custom granite kitchen counter top business. 

I did notice the of axis graphs and my first choice was the SB Accoustics with the XT 25 second.   I have never actually seen specs on the original AR 9 tweeter so have kind of been doing some educated guessing.  

I wont be running any party levels so I should be good with lower power units. My decibel meter say we average 70 to 80 db listen levels.  We may have the odd evening and run it up a bit but to us it is loud.  We only tested the AR 9's once  to see what hey could do and yes concert levels they can hit, we also were wearing some musician earplugs when we tested which knock off a lot of decibels and protect our ears.  I have always noticed with good audio you don't realize how loud it is until you try to talk to someone.  

Will be interested to see what the issue is when you tested the AR 9 tweeter.   

And thanks for the 3D printer info.

 

 

 

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  • 2 years later...

@brianw  Did you ever get plates made for a replacement tweeter?

 

Sorry, got distracted with other projects and never posted the AR9 tweeter measurements.  Both

of my tweeters measured fine with an ohm meter.  The foam gaskets were hanging off the back

and stuck to the face plate in a few spots.  I pulled them off and now on tweeter measures open

circuit, perhaps there was glue on the lead in wire - don't know for sure.

 

Anyway, here's more on the 3D printer that I've been using:

 

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