Original AR 3a's???

[steveginsd]

Hello,  First time poster, I appreciate any feedback!

I acquired a pair of AR 3a's today, and I'm wondering how to guage their originalness (probably not a word).  I bought them from an elderly lady whose husband died recently.  She said they had been stored in the garage for many years.  They were in AR-11 boxes, which aparently are the same size, as they fit perfectly.  After getting them home and removing them from the boxes, I was pleasantly surprised by their condition.  I cannot find a mark on them!  I'm not exactly sure what mint condition is, but I'm not sure how these could be any nicer.  I am going to attach some pics, I would appreciate any help from those of you who know a lot more about this than I do.  Serial numbers are 51549 & 51467.  A few questions are:

1.  Could these be original 3as?

2.  If not, what has been done to them?

3.  I believe they are walnut.  Yes or no?

4.  Are these original tweeters?  I looked at images on line, and there seem to be a lot of different ones.

Again, any help would be greatly appreciated.  I am only going to take pics of 1 speaker, the other is identical.

 

Thanks in Advance!!

 

[ra.ra]

2 minutes ago, steveginsd said:

File size is 4-5 mb.

Hi Steve, and welcome to CSP.

This is your problem - - the file size is ginormously excessive. If you can re-format these images somewhere in the 100KB size as jpeg files, the upload should proceed without further incident.

[steveginsd]

I have no idea how to do that, any suggestions?  I took the pics with my digital camera, they are on a SDHC card.  Help!

[thornev]

On Windows, right-click on a JPG, select "Open With" and then "Paint." Click on he "Home" tab and you will see "Resize" in the "Image" box. Click "Resize" which will open a dialog. Make sure "Percentage" and "Maintain aspect ratio" are clicked and enter "25" in the Horizontal text box ("25" stands for 25% of the original size). Click OK and then click the "File" tab. Then click "Save as" so you keep the original and save your smaller image as another filename. Pay attention to the folder selected in the "Save as" dialog as that's where your reduced-size JPG will be stored. That's it.  If you're on a Mac, someone else will have to help.  Thorne

[genek]

WRT to the original question, those are not original AR-3a tweeters.

[steveginsd]

Thanks, I got the pics up--any help with my questions?  Thanks!!

[lakecat]

That is an odd pair of 3a's. Never saw that tweeter before...and one that fits! Looks like it might be a decent one...how does it sound? The mids don't look original either as they look back wired but yet don't have the look of a back wired mid. Weird that in the 50 k serial range that it has plywood backing.

Certainly in very nice shape but not original. Be curious to see what Roy has to say about these. Did you see the AR11's around anywhere?

[JKent]

Welcome Steve

Those are very nice AR-3a's. Looks to me like someone did a very professional job of restoring them. As has been noted the tweeter is not original but it has been installed with great care. Most 3a tweets go south and we've been using a Hi-Vi replacement but if yours sound good, keep them. The mid looks original but with a trim ring to match the tweeter. May have been added just for aesthetics. The "AR" badge on the baffle board isn't original but looks nice. Be sure to download the restoration manual. It has pictures of all of the original drivers at the end: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/original_models_1954-1974/original_models_schematicss/restoring_the_ar-3a/

Looks like a spacer has been added around the perimeter of the baffle. Grilles look great as do the cabinets. I believe they are walnut.

Hoping Roy and Tom will add their observations.

-Kent

[RoyC]

15 hours ago, JKent said:

Hoping Roy and Tom will add their observations.

-Kent

Hi guys,

-The walnut clad plywood cabinets are not unusual for the serial numbers, though cabinets constructed from a combination of mdf and plywood were not far off. The cabinets appear to be in very nice condition. Kent, though the inner edges varied a bit, it is where the hot glue was applied to secure the original 3a grilles. With the exception of very late AR-3's, the earlier AR-3 type cabinet did not have this grille mounting arrangement, and may be what you are thinking of. Most AR-3a cabinets are like those in Steve's photos.

-The grille frames and material have been replaced. The front surfaces of the original frames were painted black. These have wider edges and are not painted.

-As mentioned above, the tweeters are not original. They appear to be old Peerless tweeters. They may work satisfactorily with a parallel coil (as with the HiVi tweeter), but experimentation would be required to determine suitability.

-The trim rings on the tweeters and mids are not original. I'm guessing the tweeter ring was added to hold a smaller tweeter faceplate in place. From what can be seen, the mids appear typical of the cabinet serial numbers, with the surface leads running under the added trim rings.

-As Kent pointed out, the black AR badge is not original to the 3a.

Roy

[tysontom]

32 minutes ago, RoyC said:

Hi guys,

-The walnut clad plywood cabinets are not unusual for the serial numbers, though cabinets constructed from a combination of mdf and plywood were not far off. Kent, though the inner edges varied a bit, it is where the hot glue was applied to secure the original grilles. The cabinets appear to be in very nice condition. With the exception of very late AR-3's, the earlier AR-3 type cabinet did not have this grille mounting arrangement.

-The grille frames and material have been replaced. The front surfaces of the original frames were painted black. These have wider edges and are not painted.

-As mentioned above, the tweeters are not original. They appear to be old Peerless tweeters. They may work satisfactorily with a parallel coil (as with the HiVi tweeter), but some experimentation would be needed if the original sound character is preferred.

-The trim rings on the tweeters and mids are not original. I'm guessing the tweeter ring was added to hold a smaller tweeter faceplate in place. From what can be seen, the mids appear typical of the cabinet serial numbers, with the surface leads running under the added trim rings.

-As Kent pointed out, the black AR badge is not original to the 3a.

Roy

I agree with Roy completely on most of his description of these nice AR-3as.

What I see first is the different tweeter (definitely the Peerless 1-inch) on a custom mounting plate to fit the AR-3a cabinet, using the stock AR screws.  The midrange has a similar custom mounting plate (using AR pan head screws instead of the flat-type), and the lead wires are under that flange piece, as Roy states.  I wonder what happened to the original midrange mounting flange when the new mounting plate was added; apparently it was cut down in size and glued to the underside of the new mounting flange.  The original midrange-driver flange cannot be removed without damage to the dome voice coil, etc. 

The woofer is an early ferrite version (long wire), but with a peculiar foam surround and a lot of glue, not too atypical.  The cone surface appears to have been coated similar to treatments done on the AR-2ax woofers, so perhaps the cone is original and stock.  The cone might have been one of the ferrite woofers with a damping ring (since removed), but I can't tell.  At first, Roy Allison and Chuck McShane experimented with different, subtle treatments to the cone on nearly all of the AR woofers, so there were variations.

I could be wrong, but I don't think these cabinets are "walnut-clad plywood."  I think Roy might be referring to the front baffle and the rear panel, but not necessarily the veneered panels, as they appear to be original walnut-panel MDF cabinets with solid-walnut grill molding, completely stock from what I can tell.  After the early AR-1 cabinets into the late 1950s, AR stopped using plywood cabinets (except for the front baffle and rear panel) for veneered-wood finishes.  There might be exceptions, but I haven't seen any.  The veneered cabinets were usually Novaply or MDF-type cabinets.  The "Utility" plywood cabinets, however, were unfinished-pine plywood on all panels.

The AR-3a-style grill mounting strip around the perimeter of the black-painted baffle board appears original, and there are traces of USM glue in places.  I can't tell about the actual grill panels themselves, but the grill-cloth appears to be the Norwood-style white-linen material used after 1973 or so.

--Tom  

 

[lARrybody]

Those are some fine looking AR3a's. I have a set that are approximately 600 units higher (52160, 52193) but they don't have the plywood backs. I have another set with the early alnico cloth surround woofers in the 33000 range that do have plywood backs. Here are some close up pictures of my 3a's, which are original except for the woofer refoam. 

[RoyC]

9 hours ago, tysontom said:

 I could be wrong, but I don't think these cabinets are "walnut-clad plywood."

I can't tell about the actual grill panels themselves, but the grill-cloth appears to be the Norwood-style white-linen material used after 1973 or so.

--Tom 

I agree, Tom...I overlooked the mdf edges of the sides, top, and bottom panels, which can be seen in the photos. (I'm still convinced the grilles are reproductions with original badges.)

I also agree regarding the woofers. The surround looks very much like the replacement sold by "Simply Speakers" for quite some time, which had a wider outside lip. If so, it is also possible the woofers were treated with a Simply Speakers product called "Foam Guard".

Roy

[ar_pro]

They're very attractive as a nice AR-3a resto-mod; is it possible that the constructor might have left some notes on the project?

It would be interesting to see if the crossover has been worked on, as well.

[lakecat]

6 hours ago, ar_pro said:

They're very attractive as a nice AR-3a resto-mod; is it possible that the constructor might have left some notes on the project?

It would be interesting to see if the crossover has been worked on, as well.

I agree also about the work. Those trim rings have to be custom made with the perfect placement of the screw holes and gives it a nice look. Adding the badge is a nice touch also. Be curious also to see the work inside if any.

[ra.ra]

On 12/13/2018 at 3:39 PM, tysontom said:

After the early AR-1 cabinets into the late 1950s, AR stopped using plywood cabinets (except for the front baffle and rear panel) for veneered-wood finishes.  There might be exceptions, but I haven't seen any. 

Tom's statement confirms what I had learned here, which is why I was surprised to see this pair of walnut AR-3's with plywood side panels from CSP member GD70, who owns two fully restored pairs of 3's. About a year ago, I saw (and heard) this pair in person at a local meet-up where we both first met RoyC who was coaxed to travel to our friendly gathering.     

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/9195-stopped-for-toilet-paper-found-a-pair-of-ar3s/&tab=comments#comment-110368

The OP's speakers are really beautiful - - - am very curious about that tweeter and the innards.  

[tysontom]

Wow!  Thanks so much for sending that link!  I have only seen a few AR-3s built after the very first ones that had all-plywood cabinets with wood veneer!  These AR-3s, SN C 44135 and C 44136, are quite unusual, especially since they were built well into the mid-1960s, probably around 1965 or so!  

--Tom

[RoyC]

On 12/15/2018 at 1:18 PM, tysontom said:

Wow!  Thanks so much for sending that link!  I have only seen a few AR-3s built after the very first ones that had all-plywood cabinets with wood veneer!  These AR-3s, SN C 44135 and C 44136, are quite unusual, especially since they were built well into the mid-1960s, probably around 1965 or so!  

--Tom

Hey Tom,

All-plywood 3 and 3a cabinets may not be as rare as you believe them to be. Although I was pretty sure I had seen a  fair number of all-plywood AR-3a and 3 cabinets among the hundreds I've worked on, it is not something I've paid particular attention to, much less documented. After our discussion regarding Steve's 3a photos, I just assumed I had simply overlooked the mdf side panels along the way...until today when I asked Larry ("Vintage_AR") to allow me to inspect some of the dozen or so AR-3 and 3a cabinets in his storage area. Of the 8 cabinets I was able to get to, 4 of them were constructed entirely of plywood with walnut veneer! One cabinet was a low serial number AR-3, two were AR-3a cabinets with serial numbers in the 22 thousands, and the fourth was a 3a cabinet with a missing rear tag. With a random sample size that small, and Glenn's photos in the link above, these cabinets are probably not all that rare.

Roy

[tysontom]

Roy, while I have seen very few veneered-plywood cabinets, I certainly can't argue with your empirical evidence!  So I certainly stand corrected, but I believe that plywood was a rare exception for veneered cabinets.  Again, when it comes to the history of old AR products, anything goes.  

Years ago, AR spec'd mdf panels for veneered cabinets for the various reasons I stated earlier, such as (mostly) lower cost, panel smoothness, dimensional stability and so forth.  I suspect that if mdf panels were in short supply, the cabinet shops, such as F.B. Hicks of Cambridge, Cab Tech of Nashua and Pine and Baker of Cambridge at Lechmere Square would use what they had to fulfill requirements.

--Tom

 

[RoyC]

8 hours ago, tysontom said:

Roy, while I have seen very few veneered-plywood cabinets, I certainly can't argue with your empirical evidence!  So I certainly stand corrected, but I believe that plywood was a rare exception for veneered cabinets.  Again, when it comes to the history of old AR products, anything goes.  

Years ago, AR spec'd mdf panels for veneered cabinets for the various reasons I stated earlier, such as (mostly) lower cost, panel smoothness, dimensional stability and so forth.  I suspect that if mdf panels were in short supply, the cabinet shops, such as F.B. Hicks of Cambridge, Cab Tech of Nashua and Pine and Baker of Cambridge at Lechmere Square would use what they had to fulfill requirements.

--Tom

 

...makes sense to me, Tom.

The all-plywood cabinets are noticeably lighter in weight. I usually pick up empty cabinets by the tweeter holes, and in retrospect, the occasional "light" cabinets are probably the all-plywood ones. Based on that alone, I'm fairly certain most of the AR-3 and 3a cabinets I've handled were partially or entirely mdf.

Roy