DonT
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Posts posted by DonT
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WOW those look great. You did a nice job on them.
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Did you get them yet? I just looked at Ebay and I can't figure out why AR 3's are selling for more than AR 3a's? Isn't the AR 3a a better speaker?
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I picked these up last Friday. I hooked them up today and they actually sound pretty nice. At this point I don't think they really need the crossovers rebuilt. The cabinets aren't in the best shape but all the drivers are original with cloth surrounds. It sucks that they have the plastic veneer instead of real wood but they need redone anyway. I have some vintage rolls of really nice veneer (Brazilian Rosewood, Black Walnut, Burled Ash) I can use on these. I must say these sound pretty nice for a small speaker.
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On 3/2/2022 at 7:48 PM, JKent said:
Yes, butyl. Temporary brain fart. This is the KLH Service Bulletin: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/klh/other/klh_schematicsservice/klh_service_bulletin_60.pdf
Thank you. I went back and corrected my error. I had referenced the Service Bulletin but clearly did not re-read it!
Obviously, I'm not a chemist. But a quick Google search showed that butyl is synthetic, not natural. What difference does it make? I have no idea. Just sayin' it seems wise to stick with the tried and true (and original).
People have put all kinds of weird stuff (latex caulk for example) as well as "seemingly" appropriate stuff (Permatex) on their cloth surrounds with disastrous effects. I would only use what the Service Bulletin recommends.
Thanks, I was looking for that and couldn't find it.
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On 3/3/2022 at 9:25 PM, 1rebmem said:
Don,
Do you have the ability to take woofer frequency response measurements?
Like, before and after application of your sealant. Then again in 6 months then 12.
I'd think free air resonance measurements would be critical to determining the effectiveness of the sealant.
No but it is one thing I am looking into. I really need to get that ability. It is no rush, I have let this sit for over a year at this point so I will take my time and do exactly that.
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1 hour ago, JKent said:
Yes, and that thread wound up in the Kitchen. The sealant Roy cooks up is authentic nitrile-based (the dtuff KLH and AR used) and has been available for a few years from Vintage_AR on ebay or directly from Roy on this site. IMHO it is unwise to put anything else on our valuable speakers.
Actually the original stuff is butyl rubber. I don't have it saved anymore because I changed computers but there was a paper put out by I think KLH that talked about re sealing the cloth surrounds back in the day. It said that if the "Buytl rubber compound was to thick you just needed to thin it with toluene. Plus in my post from a year ago Roy asked me if i used "butyl rubber, like the original" This is why I have used rubber cement. Rubber cement (cow gum in British English) is an adhesive made from elastic polymers (typically latex) Link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_cement) . Latex is natural rubber look here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber ) So my sealer is made of the same stuff they originally used.
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Hi all. I posted about this over a year ago. I am now almost positive it will work great on our vintage speakers. I am now going to test it on a pair of KLH 24's I have. As you can see in the video after a year and 3 months of sitting out in the open air (Why it's so dirty) it has not hardened at all. As I test it further I will post more info. I will say that the main ingredient is rubber cement and you do need toluene to thin it. But this stuff is so gooey you almost don't need to thin it to apply it. I am not trying to start any debate about existing products I am just posting my progress with mine. Thanks
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44 minutes ago, lakecat said:
I counted 20 but more importantly in searching for linen is the varying thickness of the threads in the original. So not only the count but the varying thread thickness also.
Yes I agree. It is really hard to find the correct thickness (Or in this case thinness) of thread in the weave. I have requests out for samples. We will see?
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3 hours ago, genek said:
The 2ax's I bought new in 1975 had a finer grill cloth than most of the earlier ARs I've seen, including the early 6s I used to have.
Here's a scan of some AR fabric, year unknown, and a ruler. My old eyes aren't up to counting the threads, but if anyone else wants to give it a shot...
24 by my count. Thanks to all the responses. now if I can find a suitable replacement. I think the cloth I bought has threads that are to thick.
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1 hour ago, genek said:
Visually, what you want to look at is the spaces between the strands, which should be wider than the strands themselves. About 2/3 of the fabric area should be empty space.
Yes I get that. I am still wondering if others have original AR 3A speakers with 24 TPI grill cloth. I need to replace mine but instead of buying something that isn't quite correct it would be nice to find something that is as close to original as possible. Especially because the cloth that most everyone was using is no longer available. So anyone with an original early set that still has the original grill cloth on them if they could chime in that would be great because I am still not 100% sure mine is original?
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7 hours ago, genek said:
AR grill linen changed several times over the years, and my guess is it was originally spec'd by weight rather than by thread count (because that's how fabric is generally cataloged). So we shouldn't use 18ct as an absolute all by itself.
So in other words if I find the correct 24 TPI cloth that would be correct for these speakers. Thanks
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2 hours ago, genek said:
It's not just the threads per inch, but also the weight/thickness of the strands and the space between each strand. It's possible for fabric to have a low thread count and still be a heavy, solid wall of fiber.
That whitish fabric has threads that look 2 or 3 times the thickness of the other fabrics and much smaller spaces between the threads. It will block substantially more highs. I wouldn't use that one. I don't think I'd want to use the bottom one of the three in the last photo either.
I understand that. I know I took a chance buying the stuff I bought. But everything I have read on here says to get something with an 18 TPI thread count. But from what I can tell my original cloth on the one speaker that was not tampered with it had a 24 TPI. Is that correct? I know I need something with smaller threads. And what I bought was a stab in the dark. I am asking what others have found on there speakers that was original. Then I can try and match it because from what I can tell from mine it should be 24 TPI not 18?
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That's not what concerns me. Was the original fabric 24 threads per inch?
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Okay I have read the posts about getting the 18 count cloth from 123 stitch but they quit selling it. So I bought Natural Oatmeal 18 Count Zweigart Floba linen. Well now I am just a bit confused? I didn't count the threads of the linen that was on my speakers. I already knew that one cover was most likely replaced because you could see an obvious difference. Plus it had been removed and had Velcro put on it to reattach it and someone replaced the woofer on it as well. Now my other speaker I truly believe had never had the grill removed. I had to cut away small pieces of cloth to get it off. It looks all original. So I got both grills and put the new cloth I ordered over them to compare. Well they all 3 look different. The cloth on the one that I believe is original has a thread count of 24, and the one that I believe was replaced has a thread count of 32? Has anyone seen an original cloth with a thread count of 24? Also that speaker has a real low serial number as well (1121). Any info would be great.
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I agree it's hard to find the right stuff. I just ordered some of this. (Natural Oatmeal 18 Count Zweigart Floba linen) We will see what it looks like when I get it.
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What about this. It's 18 thread count.
https://www.123stitch.com/item/Wichelt-18-Ct-Natural-Oatmeal-Floba-Needlework-Fabric-9x13/551-008W
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On 3/23/2021 at 10:44 AM, giovanni56 said:
In 1969 it happened to buy a pair of Ar3a with Alnico woofers, both with smooth and corrugated cone; it was difficult to notice the difference on the woofers, because the frames were glued and removing them would void the warranty. The engineer Gianfranco Maria Binari (later editor of SUONO STEREO HI-FI), in 1969, bought a pair of Ar3a, with a woofer in corrugated cone and the other smooth; he noticed it, because with a flashlight he illuminated the woofers through the front cloth; later he was able to get a pair with both smooth woofers from the seller.
Okay is it possible that these where original also? One smooth with foam surround and one ribbed. With the real early serial numbers on mine I am thinking no.
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Very nice looking pair. I will be watching with interest.
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2 minutes ago, genek said:
Doesn't surprise me. Estate sales are usually run by people who deal mostly with furniture and ephemera and have no idea how to price electronics.
Yes they had absolutely no clue as to the value of this stuff. They referred to the Empire as "old outdated record player"
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32 minutes ago, Aadams said:
That looks like a Barzilay Wall unit. Was it for sale?
Yes but I really don't have room for it.
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It's no big deal, I got them CHEAP. But sometimes when I post a price in the past there are some that argue and say I am lying about what I paid. here is a link to the estate sale that I bought them from. It has the company contact info on it and I don't know if they will say but you can call them and ask what they sold them for. It will SHOCK you! Oh and I got all 4 speakers and the TT for the one dirt cheap price. The other speakers appear to be off brand junk but I won't know for sure until I open them up.
https://www.estatesales.net/FL/Palm-Harbor/34683/2875353
Pic from the sale
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4 hours ago, lakecat said:
Wow....that pair carries some of the earliest serial numbers I have seen! Great capture....let us know how they sound.
Well it looks like someone replaced or reconed the woofer on one. The other has never had the grill off yet. I wonder if I can find another older style woofer. We will see?
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1 hour ago, ar_pro said:
Nice Catch! The AR-3a look like one-owner beauties from someone who cared for them.
And the Empire Troubadour was a masterpiece of machining; you can have a lot of fun restoring it to like-new.
The cartridge in the arm looks like it might be a Shure, but the one sitting on the lid in the next-to-last photo appears to be an Empire.
They used to package the Troubadour 598 with the Empire 1000ZE/X cartridge, and it was an excellent combination - the 1000 is a much-underrated cartridge.
Here's some history on Empire:
I got the 1000 ZE in a box with it. The needle looks okay. It has an Audio Technica on it.
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I went to an estate sale today and these followed me home. I feel so lucky I might go buy a lotto! Yes the Empire came with them!
Looking for replacement pots for AR3a
in Acoustic Research
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Anyone replacing the original pots with the new ones I will take your old ones if you don't want them. Thanks