Aadams
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The web site "Peter's Planets” is for fans of Gustav Holst’s “The Planets”, first recorded around 1922 and most recently in 2017. Peter has acquired, listened to, and subjectively ranked over 80 recorded performances of the “The Planets”.
Now, through the miracle of Lossless Streaming, you can do the same. I won’t be doing that.
I already possess two CD versions (Peter’s No.1 and 49) but curious there might be something better, I streamed a dozen others that are offered up as great examples. Do they sound the same? No, mostly not even close. Just like covers of popular songs, they differ in style or interpretation and noticeably, in recording sound quality.
Internet searches show the consensus top ranked recording of the “The Planets” appears to be the 1986 Montreal Symphony/Charles Dutoit on Decca, my pick as well until I heard two newer ones; Cincinnati Symphony/ Paavo Jarvi 2009 Telarc and Dallas Symphony/Andrew Litton 1996 Delos. There are a couple of original Hi Res recordings you may prefer or maybe something older. Preference is totally subjective. The only convenient way to do these comparisons and find what you like is Lossless Streaming.
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And now we have page three. This is a rare thread, drifting into a dendritic form that is reminiscent of something I have seen on TV. I sense someone is wearing an onion on their belt.
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Maybe I misunderstood your objective in naming the thread Replacement AR-4x Tweeter: A Mod In Work.
If your objective was to create a mod to satisfy yourself then your thread is done.
But, I recall earlier, you stated that you would get response curves from "a friend across town" to show us the difference between a stock PRT and your mod. You also stated that you would lend your finished mod PRT to another qualified forum member for subjective evaluation of the results in a working AR4 model. I bought what you said. Maybe I read too much into your words but they seemed like straight forward English at the time.
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I, along with most of the “lurkers and monitors”, await the operating 4x portion of your project, especially the response curves you spoke of earlier.
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The last movement of The Young Persons Guide To The Orchestra is among the best 3-minute runs in all classical music. It’s definitive recording was captured by Decca in 1969 with the composer conducting. There have been many recordings since, some better engineered, with more dynamic range, but for 52 years no one ever matched the balance of the full orchestra as presented by Britten and Decca in that last movement. The challenge is in the last minute of the last 3 minutes. The first two minutes are spent with the orchestra following the piccolo, descending into seeming fugal chaos until the full brass and low strings restore order with a grand restatement of the original theme while the high strings and woodwinds continue the fugue. Most recordings allow the brass to swamp the strings. Britten obviously wanted the strings heard singing high counterpoint flourishes over the brass. Goose bumps when it is right.
These are excellent recordings and performances of the Britten work. From left to right the recordings get technically better but the 2021 Petrenko from Onyx is the best because it achieves the orchestral balance of the Decca, while being captured in Hi res lossless format. It appears to be available streamed or as downloadable file versions. No hard copy versions. Note: You really need to listen to the entire 16 minutes to fully appreciate what is happening in the last 3 minutes.
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13 minutes ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:
Well, it wouldn’t fit under a “restore”, to the AR purists. Not using an AR dome, and not an AR voice coil would make it a Mod, no?
Just make it perform and appear correctly. None of the rebuilt dome tweeters you hear about have original coils. Some of them are custom wound for application as either 4 or 8 ohm as specified by the buyer. Some tweeter domes are original some domes are aftermarket. Midranges could be a bit different. Nobody restores them.
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16 minutes ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:
Ok.
Maybe a place for Replacement Replacements?Mods to Replacements?
You want me to start the “Mod To Replacement 4x Tweeter”?
Your project is interesting. I would say, just take your project to conclusion and the admin will know in the end whether or not it is an MT thread.
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46 minutes ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:
While I don’t have a full suite of test equipment, I do know someone across town who does.
This would be helpful
46 minutes ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:Im a bit surprised at the hypersensitivity. I’m not in the market for selling my services or products, as others in here are.
No reason to be shy. If you can credibly restore failed AR5/AR3a/11 midranges for a reasonable fee you will get interest.
46 minutes ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:But according to you, when I’m done, it will be fruitless, since I don’t have the “street cred” to say they sound good and are viable repairs/replacements.
I am saying what you are doing to the PRT is not practicable for almost all of us, so unless you bring it to market or show us how it is simple to do, this is an academic exercise that should be in Mods and Tweaks. We would pay you for the modified part in the expectation that it would meet expectations. You would build cred as the number of successful transactions increased and through supportive reports of success on this and other sites.
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I thought for a while this thread was hijacked. Now I am not sure. What you are doing is interesting but unless you actually get something done, its like listening to grandpa Simpson stories that don't go anywhere. You don't have the name recognition of Allison or Kantor, so even if you put this in a 4x for instance and tell us it is better we will need an easy and inexpensive way to verify your claim. We don't all possess your skills or inclination to invest the time to replicate your efforts so where is this project going? The crossover mods in the M&T thread you mentioned are easily replicable, your surgery and techniques are not. How will this serve the interests of AR4 owners in general after you finish? Otherwise, this thread should be a in Mods and Tweaks.
I am still waiting for you to restore 3a dome mids?
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You have everything you need to do what you want. The polks are two ways which means the the upper midrange is in the tweeter at least partially. Fortunately you have a midrange tone control on your Sansui. It could be, you only need to turn down the mid range control.
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17 minutes ago, tourmax said:
But the towers were bought for a HT system. They sound fine on my two channel system and can get plenty loud, but being biased toward a HT system, they can sometimes be too "bright" on the top end. they "bottom out" at 30hz, but the sub fills in below that so it still sounds great on the bottom.
The easiest way to deal with this ,if your high range tone control won't do it, is connect a ten band equalizer in your tape loop. No crossover mods unless that is what you prefer.
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It
On 3/5/2024 at 4:11 PM, meta_noia_fot said:sealing the woofer using duct putty (anachronistic, but I get a good seal and they carry it at Lowe's)
I just remembered. In those ADD particle board baffles, the duct seal material can bond to the wood particles. The longer it stays, the tighter the bond. The next time you remove the driver you can pull out chunks of the smooth routed mounting surface. Best bet now days, is gasket tape.
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19 hours ago, meta_noia_fot said:
I'm sure the caps have drifted somewhat, but if everything is functioning and the drivers "sound" enough alike, would you still replace them seeing as they're almost 50 years old?
About 10 years ago the late @Carlspeak posted a valuable analysis of tests of old bi polar caps he had removed from loudspeakers over years of repair and restoration.
He concluded there was no practical reason to remove Sprague Compulytics without outward evidence of malfunction.
I have AR classics with all new caps and all old spragues. There is no difference attributable to caps.
You have new caps in your AR9s. Put on a favorite recording and compare to the 10pis. They won't sound the same but if they sound equally distortion free you are good to go. I wouldn't change them.
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There is an engineering design section in the manual that gives the details you seek. Among the details is how the placement of the LMR in the cabinet, the cabinet depth and crossover frequency work to automatically negate the effect of cancellations from reflections in low mid range frequencies. This is a long way to say I think your mid ranges are too close to the side walls. This might be an angle-in situation.
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2 hours ago, Andre_Db66 said:
Perhaps subjective?
Yes. Assuming they are operating correctly and identically placed in relation to reflective boundaries and the listeners ears, the 3 series plays bass much lower than the 5. In your photo, the gain from room placement favors the 5 because it is on the floor. You are probably hearing a mid bass hump.
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43 minutes ago, Andre_Db66 said:
1 speaker can perform this type of material wonderfully tight and much louder than the other.
This is what I thought you were saying from the beginning until you said they both played loud. Ok so they are NOT balanced and centered in mono. The woofer excursion problem and the loudness balance problem could 2 different issues but hopefully they will both vanish when you check the fuses.
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This is what I think you are saying; When playing in mono the sound of both speakers is centered and balanced. The only problem is the scary woofer excursion. It sounds like source material, especially if the problem moves.
If it is the source material, I agree with @frankmarsi lst2 are not the speakers for that music. Probably your JBLs or SRTs or your LSTs that I think I saw in a photo.
Tomorrow.
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16 minutes ago, Andre_Db66 said:
Or what causes extra throughput of nrg to the bass unit,
The crossover is not putting extra energy into the woofer.
You are not using a turntable for this, correct? .
The overall diminished output of one speaker cab could be a fuse. The buzzing could also be fuse related.
Did the excursion move when you swapped the signal cables? If so it could be the source material, or something upstream from the speaker and unrelated to the overall output problem.
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2 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:
The larger AR-LST's controls only affect the highs and lows.
Yes I had it reversed. Thank you.
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Have you swapped the left/right signal wires to see if the abnormal excursion moves to the other cab?
The switch on the LST only affects the mids. The sound profiles occur by varying the midrange level in relation to fixed tweeter and woofer output. Your fuzzy midrange could be from a degraded fuse.
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31 minutes ago, Andre_Db66 said:
Fuses are original ones and i have no idea if they are as old as the cabinets. Though i fail to see what impact this could have anyway...
LST fuse condition is a big deal. The fuses degrade over time and can cause quirky behavior. You could temporarily bypass the fuses and gently test the system. The only things to cause large excursions of these woofers is a strong low frequency source signal or an air leak. The passive crossover won't amplify a signal. I would avoid 30 hz on these woofers and play music. It will be safer for the woofer.
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How old are the fuses? Have you installed new fuses? Also you could swap the signal wire left and right channel to see if the problem stays in the same cab.
A reminder: the push test is to assess the recovery speed of the woofer cone after it is pushed in slowly. The recovery should be sluggish not rapid.
I don't have an informed opinion on the autoformer, except to say I can't recall anyone ever mentioning a faulty autoformer in their LSTs or 10pis but dirt in the switch has been an issue.
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21 minutes ago, Andre_Db66 said:
Simple tone generator? 30hz? What do you suggest as frequency? I was testing untill now with planet dada/Yello. My woofer almost exploded on one side... 😁
Set aside the signal generator. You might need a smoke generator but you can start with a simple woofer push test comparison between the two cabs. With all the hivis you have been installing I would not be surprised if you have a leak(s). Are you sealing with gasket tape? You could have gaps around the screw holes for example. Check around the mids as well for a good seal. Did you forget to seal the woofer?
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I would check for a serious cabinet leak as first step. Typing on phone is pia.
Music Streaming As a System Upgrade.
in Mods, Tweaks, and Upgrades to the Classics
Posted
Originally written for virtuoso piano in 1874, "Pictures at an Exhibition" is Mussorgsky's representation, in musical sound, of ten paintings by artist Viktor Hartmann. The work is famous today because in 1922 Maurice Ravel created an orchestral version that is a showpiece of orchestration which has become the default standard version that audiences expect to hear at concerts. There are at least 300 recordings, nearly all of them are competent but vary in the conductor's ability to put across the image of the dancing chicks or the old castle. Perhaps the witch's hut on giant fowl's legs isn't menacing . Sometimes the Great Gate of Kiev isn't great enough. Such is how the critics sort recordings of this work for ranking.
Riccardo Muti/Philadelphia/Warner/1979 is considered the best overall recorded performance by many critics.
It turns out the critics get so picky about the musical imagery of the pictures that there is no perfect performance/recording but there are several very good ones. For me, given the choice of being in a good seat at a competent live performance of a major work or sitting in front of speakers to hear the very best interpretation available, I would take the live performance every time, which is why I would focus on the recording sound quality more than best historical performance.
For best sound there are only a few choices, all from the last 20 years. My default until recently was Lorin Maazel/ Cleveland/Telarc 1979. Jaarvi/Cincinnati/Telarc 2008 is good. Compare those to Karabits/Bournemouth/Onyx/2011 or Gilbert/NYP/NYPhil/2012.
I prefer the Gilbert 2012. It is lossless. The presentation is front row center. The recording is an entire concert before a live audience which adds a frisson to the performance. The sound is gorgeous.